Bafang HD1000 FATTY - ME TOO

[waynebergman]

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I have been given an old PC so I have tweeked the controller settings to give a much more gradual ramp up in PAS power and also changed the amount of pedal rotation needed to activate the pas. Both of these feel much better now. I am only using two levels of pas from my display setting so this means I just enter these two levels of pas in the fields shown that are not blocked out.

Feeling the desire to get some front suspension on this bike . The Bluto front fork has caught my eye but too cheap to pull the trigger on that one.

The IGH is working really well. My regular routine is to give a quick tighten of the axle nuts just to double check that they have not worked loose on there own. It can happen every 3 or 4 rides if you dont check them. I think with the braking forces and the motor torque working in two different directions things can kind of work loose if you don't stay on top of it. If your out on the trail and the nuts come loose the chain will come off of the rear sprocket under loads.

 

[waynebergman]

I have come around to actually liking the pas. My first guess at how best to alter controller settings were way off for PAS. My initial thinking was for the pas to kick in as soon as possible and also with a fair bit of initial power. Both of these wacko ideas were bad settings for a couple or reasons......
1. too little movement of the pedals to start the PAS is too jerky and unpredictable for when the bike starts move under power.
2. the quickness of the power applied with my initial settings meant there was always a stress on the system. There was no time for chain tension to the rear wheel before power hit the rear sprocket.

Changing over the other day to the settings I have now, the throttle still over rides the slow start of PAS current when I pin the throttle but lets me put power to wheel in a smooth way when using PAS with no clunks or harshness to the rear wheel. I can also rock the bike back and forth at a track stand with PAS activated with out the bike jolting forward like it used to do with my old settings.

Long story short I am using PAS at lot more now and can see its benifits when dialed in correctly. Also if I let a new rider use my bike I don't have to go through a long run down on what not to do. I can send them off with pas set at 2 or something and show them the shifter lever and they are good to go. Before with my deraileur, cassette and bad PAS settings it meant I was afraid to let anyone try the bike.

I did a nice 5 mile loop around the area tonight with my wife riding the fat bike for the first time with the PAS setings like this and it went real smooth. No problems.

 

[waynebergman]

We had a pretty low tide today in Maderia Park. The ramp down to the boats got a little steeper than usual with this low tide. The Bafang putted up the ramp no problem. [youtube]uI7oKqZGQ2I[/youtube]

 

[waynebergman]

A few thoughts on what I am still learning in regards to PAS and how it best applies to these drives.

I am finding even when riding fun single track the PAS can be nice but the long story short for me is PAS for when in the saddle and throttle when standing out of the saddle.

Also I feel the reason that just the 2 levels of PAS work for me is because at these low levels of current the speed at which the chain tensions up from coasting is not going to give a clunk to the drive train like it will if you are sending big current to the system. My 2rd level for me means PAS 2 gives 25% of 30 amps at 50 some volts.

The ramp up time from the controller settings is for one setting for all PAS levels (but can be overridden by throttle)so its proportional to the amount of current meaning more current gives a faster ramp up of power meaning more stress to the drive from coasting to power up. Not sure if I am explaining this very well but the first couple of levels of pas work great going from coasting to the transition to engaging power so that is cool. So then I only use the higher levels of PAS if I am climbing in the saddle and moving from lower levels up to the higher levels while I am moving. If I stop pedalling I will lower the pass level to reduce shock to the drive train before I start moving again. For most single track fun I leave it on Pas setting 2 and I can switch between pedaling and coasting with no drive train shock at all, and then I can still hit the throttle when I want. Super nice!

Also I feel a real bonus with the PAS is it's not so much that you are helping that much with pedal input for trying to squeeze out the best mileage per AH but I think it's more that you just get a nice steady flow of low amps with PAS. Having to nurse the throttle for a low and steady steam of current can be difficult if you are trying to conserve AH as the throttles can be a bit twitchy at least the cheapo ones I use.

Loving this bike more and more. The HD1000 is a great motor. I have climbed some steep trails for long periods that have melted solder on my hub motors and this motor barely heats up at all.

 

[WoodlandHills]

I have my bike geared so that I ride seated in PAS 1 & 2 nearly all the time and just like you, if I have to stand I transition to the throttle (where legal). Given how softly the power comes in at PAS 1&2, and the fact that the starting delay means you are already putting in pedal torque and preloading the frame when the power arrives, there is almost no shock loading. I ride exclusively with the C961 display because it is the only one with the three button remote, which I attach within easy reach on the l/h bar. I keep the remote rotated so the big + & - buttons can be tapped with my thumb while pedaling and I use it as a stepped throttle with 9 settings. Almost like cruise control.... BTW I'm still using whatever programming Luna was using back in Nov 2015 since I don't have a Windows PC.

Ideally, Bafang will include a torque sensor in some future version of the BBSxx drives and we can move to a more modern PAS system like the OEMs with their Bosch and Yamaha drives. Until then, there are ways of working with the existing system to get much of what we want.

 

[waynebergman]

I have just purchased off of craigs list these RST suspension forks. I won't have them in my hands till next weekend but I am excited about getting these on my bike. I got them for $300.00 Canadian and they are brand new never used. They come with no axle so I figure the $300.00 was fair. I want to use my current front wheel if I can, which would mean I have to make up some adaptors to get my 10 mm axle hub ( 120mm width ) to work with these forks. The forks are meant to be used with a 15mm through axle and the spec on the width is 150mm. I have a few ideas for making up something to make it work but until I get the forks in my hands it's hard to speculate if it will work. Worst case senario is I build a new front wheel to the correct hub but all these little parts can really add up in cost.

I have been having a dilly of a time trying to get spec on the axle dimensions for this fork. Google is not finding it for me that is for sure. I can not even find the axle for sale anywhere so I am guessing the axle normally came with the shock but the original owner lost it. If I could buy the axle I could use that as a starting point to make up some adaptors maybe. I will post some pics of the machined adaptors that I hope will work to marry up the old hub with the new forks in a week or so after I get the forks in my hands. I may have to do a bit of a hack as well to slide the front brake caliper inbound enough to reach into my narrow 120mm hub brake rotor.

The low tire pressure is for sure working to smooth out the trail at slower speeds but riding through rocky sections is brutal on a rigid bike, fat tires or not. Also because I have a motor I am not so worried about the extra weight. This decision to go to a suspension front fork is most likely due to the fact that I am over 60 years old now. Still killing it (in my dreams) but at much slower speeds

 

[WoodlandHills]

I put one of those on my Gravity Deadeye Monster last month. It was an easy install, but required a new crown race to space the stem low enough in the head tube to prevent binding when correctly adjusted. If yours makes contact, get the Cane Creek for Salsa +3mm crown race and sub that for the one in the Cane Creek lower headset adapter. If your head tube is "Bluto Ready" disregard this, the GDM needs the adapter since it has a skinny head tube.

The 15mm axles are integral to the operation of the forks and I would be leery of cobbling up spacers to use a thinner one. These cheap forks are flimsy enough w/o compromising their rigidity by using a skinny axle and a good hub w/axle is not that expensive. I have a Bluto and a Renegade and the difference is real enough. The Bluto has almost no stiction, whereas the Renegade is very sticky. The Bluto has about 20 miles on it and the Renegade is brand new so I hope it will loosen up with time and use.

The Bluto seems to also have smaller increments of adjustment and the detents feel much more precise as well. I am running about 30% sag and I have the rebound at 2 clicks from fully closed on the Bluto and 1 click on the Renegade. On both forks I have the compression set to where I can just feel it resisting against a hard fast shove against the front brake. We shall see how those settings change as I dial them in.

 

[waynebergman]

Good info Woodland, thanks. I may try the adaptor route first once I get the shocks in my hand but I will most likely need to go with a proper hub that fits. I am curious however Woodland, did you get your axle with the hub or with the forks? Also will any hub axle that has 150mm spacing x 15mm through axle fit these forks. In other words are the ends of the axle that clamp into the forks a generic size? .........thanks wayne

 

[WoodlandHills]

My fork came with the axle and it looks like it will fit into the Bluto although I haven't tried it yet. I am pretty sure that any 15x150mm axle will fit. I used a generic hub, a Salsa or Origin8 or something like that, it was about $60 IIRC.

 

[waynebergman]

Woodland if you get a chance it would be great to know for sure if the Bluto axle is interchangeable with your RST fork. If its not too much trouble could I ask you to try the Bluto axle in the RST for fit?

I feel it will be much easier to obtain a bluto axle than the RST as it seems there are more Bluto's out there.

 

[WoodlandHills]

The RST axle has 15mm of threads and the Bluto has 10mm. The RST fits the Bluto with no alteration. The Bluto either needs to have more threads or else a thin washer under the head of the axle/bolt. As it is now it will not pull up tight.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Thanks for posting this. The stator is the same diameter as the BBS02, but 66% wider. The BBS02 has been run at 30A, so that suggests that the BBSHD "might" be capable of 50A if run with an external controller. Doing that would of course, void the warranty.

Karl and Eric have run them up to 50A before experiencing occasional heat issues (external 6-FET using 3077's). Of course, anyone who tries this should add a temp sensor.

An external controller also opens up the possibility of using a 60V battery. There's no reason the motor couldn't do that, it's the stock controller that is limited to 13S / 14S (48V / 52V). However, I suspect that the drive could not survive mechanically, or at the very least would suffer very rapid wear.

Voltage requires a commitment, but max amps are easily adjusted day by day. Therefore, I'd stick with the common 48V / 52V packs, especially since the fewer cells we use in series, the easier it is to fit a pack in a small frame triangle.

To get a small 4P pack to put out peaks of 40A, you need 10A per cell. Two years ago, that was difficult to find, but now?..we have the 30Q and GA cells. A 48V X 40A pack would be about 1920W, which I believe is near the mechanical limits of this drive. Higher volts would allow lower amps (at the same power), but then the same Ah size of pack would have one additional string of cells in series, making the pack physically larger and harder to fit.

4P of the GA cell = 13.6-Ah in a tiny 4P pack. Not long-range, but...if you have room for a larger pack, you have the option of a less expensive cell in 5P-8P...

 

[waynebergman]

Hey thanks Woodland. This helps a lot. I will post some pics when I get the RST fork. Prices for the axle and hubs are pretty expensive. I am starting to see that if I go the route of new hub, new axle, new spokes the total cost of conversion is going to be more than I really want to spend. When you consider how cheap you can get a complete bike with Bluto's included (like 1500 total from some discount sites) it would make more sense to get the whole bike and swap out my rigid forks with the blutos and re sell the other bike. I thought of this but shipping to Canada makes the deal not quite so appealing. Anyways I will proceed with a home made solution for machined adaptors and see what happens.

Oh Ron by the way I think you posted in this thread your last comment into the wrong thread, I am guessing it was meant to go into a different thread but glad you are following what I am up to with the bike.

 

[WoodlandHills]

I spent more on the forks and the hub than I did on the basic bike from Bikes Direct. $399 for the bike and $350 + $60 for the fork and hub. My wheel guy was able to reuse my spokes, but not the nipples IIRC. One of the reasons I selected my particular bike was its ability to be upgraded and modded.....and Karls recipe to get started, of course. It's easy to find an IGH in 135mm, but BD makes the only fat bike anymore with a 135mm rear end AFAIK.

 

[waynebergman]

My forks arrived the other day and they look really nice. I think for the 300 canadian it was a pretty good deal but not having the axle could get expensive if my adaptors don't work. I also realize now that ALL the 150mm x 15mm through axle hubs made for this fork are 32 hole so that means if I go the route of new hub and wheel build I can't even use my old rim as its 36 hole.

I will kind of figure it out as I go but I have a pretty good feel as to the direction I will go with the adaptors. Shown in the photo is an old hub beside my wheel. This hub is toast but the land on the rotor mounts are the perfect 15mm that I want for spacing my brake rotor outbound. If I bought a bunch of the thin store bought spacers I would need a bunch of them and that would add up in cost as well and not be as strong I figure as just machining off the rotor mount off the hub and using it as my spacer.

Next I have a bolt that fits the threads in the non brake side of the fork legs. I will shorten this bolt and drill a shallow hole in the hex head to fit the 9.8mm axle coming out of my old front wheel. Also I will drill a hole through the the whole length of this bolt to let my quick release assembly slide though. If after testing it looks promising I will epoxy this bolt in there for keeps, I can always with boiling water break the epoxy bond free I figure if I decide to go with the proper 15mm hub.

For the brake side of the fork legs I will machine a 15mm insert that is 40mm long and most likely out of steel. I will run a tap through this to anchor my quick release assembly to and of course drill a shallow hole in the inbound face to fit the 9.8mm axle coming out of my old front wheel. This machined insert piece will need to slide in and out so the wheel can be removed and serviced so I will want a tight fit.

I am hoping because I am light in weight and my style these days is mostly slow riding I will be safe. I will post progress pics as things happen. My thinking is as long as the 15mm inbound extensions have a tight fit to the fork legs and my quick release assembly pulls everything together I should be good to go.

 

[waynebergman]

Adaptors are now made. I will install them sometime over the next couple of days and post some pictures of the forks installed.

 

[waynebergman]

Everything seems solid, I think it may actually work. I still have some work to do still on my rotor adaptors to move the rotor outbound but it's tempting to forget about the front brakes for a quick test ride.

 

[waynebergman]

Adaptors work well. I can see no reason for these to fail at all. Lots of work to make these little guys up but for me it was worth it as I have the lathe and the time on my hands. Also the alternative was to go with a whole new wheel and axle which may have cost me more than I payed for the forks so it was a feeling of accomplishment to get away with this one. Its nice to have some front suspension again but there does seem to be a bit of stiction at the very onset of travel with these RST Renegades. The stiction is not a big deal and if they work as well in the cold as they do now, I will be happy.

I have upped my front tire air pressure to a little over 15lbs now because I am running with a front shock and left the back to around 5 lbs.

I think totally rigid makes sense if you are in snow or sand and wanting to keep cost and or weight down but if you have an electric motor on your fat bike just go with the suspension if you can afford it in my opinion. Also it makes way more sense to buy the bike with forks already installed, because if you buy suspension as an after thought it will get expensive.

 

[tomjasz]

WOW Barebones BBSHD $500 and BBS02 for $400. Crazy Eric at Luna.

 

[waynebergman]

Looks like my inline watt meter has also stopped working. This is no surprise as the Luna site is now saying this meter is not really recomended for a 52 volt system. I did get several hundred miles out of it however and it was only 25 bucks so no big deal. I think until there is a good reliable one for 52 volt system my strategy will be to watch milage and voltage on the bafang dash board and hope for the best. For almost all of my riding I get tired before the battery dies anyways but the amp hour meter would is handy when it's working.

I figure with just using the bafang dash board I should be able to use my voltage sag reading as a bit of an alarm for an early indicator for running out of juice. Once I see voltage sag readings that would imply I may run out of gas before the ride is over I would use only PAS and on a low setting to get me the distance I need to go. I feel the PAS is much better at not pulling spikes like the throttle can do. PAS will also let me set a steady low amp pull so I can just pick a gear that's spinning fast and effecient or lug it and pedal hard - either or, should extend the range when it get close to LVC.

 

[tomjasz]

I gave up on watt meters and now have a CA3 that I put on a bike when I need to chase some data. In the end I spent more on cheap meters and now I just wire up my bikes with the right connector scheme to pop a CA3 and shunt on to do battery checks. I find I don't need a meter 90% of the time. I am going to put a Batt Man on one bike but don't have the confidence in it I have in the Grin product.

I think Luna has a 52V version and not all versions were 52V sensitive.

 

[WoodlandHills]

I am using one of these: https://www.amazon.com/bayite-6-5-100V-Display-Multimeter-Voltmeter/dp/B013PKYILS and it seems useful. On the plus side, the display only needs light gauge wires so it is easier to mount than the inline type, on the downside, it's not waterproof at all and the shunt is another big object to hide somewhere on the bike. Still, for under $20 delivered it is worth the trouble to install. I have no idea how long it will last.....YMMV

 

[waynebergman]

Can someone point me please to any posts regarding running a freewheel and sprocket on the rear disc rotor mount. As much as I am loving my drive train for the trail riding I do at times wish I could add some meaningfull pedal input at a slower cadence up in my taller gears for road riding . Also I should say I want to add pedal input at the same time the motor is in its happy zone and this is just plain impossible unless a second chain is added to the equation that would be geared much taller than the motor drive chain side.

If was to simply gear the motor drive side taller, I would have to lug the motor too much for pedal input at comfortable cadence which I don't like to do. The bike as is I would say is close to perfect on the trail but say if I am cruising on the road at 25mph or so (which is top speed for me now) when the motor is happy the pedals are not going to catch up to do any good. Also it feels kind of lame just kind of ghost pedalling when past my comfort level for ideal cadence.

I am thinking if I had a 42 tooth on the front left crank arm with a free wheel sprocket mounted to the brake rotor I could have what I want. I figure with this configuration if I am just riding with motor input alone and not pedaling the second chain on the left would freewheel not spinning at all keeping things quiet. Then when I add pedal input the left chain and sprockets will kick in with a much taller gearing for the assist I am wanting. I figure with the free wheel stuff happening at both sides of the rear wheel I should work as I describe above?

Any ideas or help on this would be awesome, and thanks.......wayne

 

[waynebergman]

[youtube]k_NYIyFM9fE[/youtube]
Another youtube thriller

Shown in this short video is the trail called "New Frogger" it is in the West Sechelt area, a 20 minute drive from where I live

 

[Sean9002]

Very Jealous of your Locale! must be some great trails up in BC!