Battery bms repair

XxHaimBondxX

10 mW
Joined
Apr 8, 2023
Messages
23
Location
Albany, NY
Got a bike with defective battery, not charging, but puts out about 15 volts. Inside bms looks like transistor #4 cracked. #6 doesn't look very well either. Other than soldering connections, the base seems to be solidly glued. Easy to replace?

Perhaps replacing entire bms, can anyone recommend a replacement?


20230408_194830.jpg
20230408_194837.jpg
 
Hello, what I see in the pictures is a cracked mosfet. As for mosfet failures things like shorted motor phase wires blow them up.

Around here there doesn't seem to be much consistent agreement about what is a good BMS company. None of the manufactures seem to be outstanding. I have no recommendations myself.

However I will say that before you put a new BMS into your system, be sure your motor phase wires are not shorted out.

:)
⚡
 
Right, there will be 15 wires for a 14s BMS. The one in the link looks like it would work but there is no guarantee the balance wire connector will match. Many times you end up needing to splice all 15 wires into the new connector. You also need to be very careful of the wiring order. Just because two have the same size connector doesn't mean they are wired the same.

Your old one failed, so it may have been under rated for your motor. It won't hurt to get one that is over rated by a bit, like 45A. These things get warm when in use and over heating can cause failures also.

There are much fancier BMS units with wireless connections and programmability. I prefer the simple ones. Fewer things that can fail.
 
And some BMS use more than one connector for the balance/sense wires. For instance, they might use two, one a 7 pin and one an 8 pin.

Some BMS can handle a range of series setups, and have say a 7 pin and a 15 pin, but when wired up you don't just use the first 15 of those for a 14s pack, you have to wire per their exact diagram which shorts some of the pins together (essentially skipping those) but using pins "above" and "below" that point for cell connections.

So before connecting anything, make sure you follow the actual BMS manufacturer diagram for connections. ;)


Regarding BMS failures, you might want to look up Methods' threads on this from the last several months--there is a fair bit of interesting and useful info in there.
 
Hello, what I see in the pictures is a cracked mosfet. As for mosfet failures things like shorted motor phase wires blow them up.
You might be thinking of controller FETs--those are what are typically blown up by motor wiring issues, since they are directly connected to them.

The BMS FETs *could* be blown by that, too, but normally only if the controller is first destroyed by also having blown FETs allowing a direct short across a phase bridge from battery positive to battery negative.

Either of those is fairly easy to test for just by turning the motor backwards by hand--if it has a lot of resistance to turning compared to normal, or is simply very hard to turn, then either the motor wiring itself or the controller FETs are shorted.


But something caused the BMS to fail. THere are quite a few things that could do this, and some of them are cascades of little things that lead to big problems; I only cover a couple below:

Typically the FETs are undersized or exactly sized (for current *and* voltage) in these (and controllers, etc) so that they can just barely handle the load they are "rated" for, instead of sizing them for a significant overload factor (25-50% or more), because it costs more to do that.

So a common problem is that being run near or at (or beyond) their limits, they create a lot of heat, and mostly being inside the heatshrink of the battery right up against the cells, which also generate heat, and inside a battery casing or bag, which prevents exit of that heat, they can overheat and fail, or age faster due to the heat and eventually fail, etc.

They can also get voltage spikes every time the BMS has to shutdown due to cell LVC (low battery), if the system depends on the BMS to protect the pack, or if the pack has a cell-level problem (often visible as unbalanced cell voltages). These spikes can exceed the FET voltage ratings, and blow them up like you see.

Usually when the FETs fail, they fail shorted (and silently/invisibly), so that you still get current flow thru them as if they were still on; if only one FET fails this way but the others in parallel don't, that one FET is now taking all the current and may explode like you see. Then the rest of the FETs keep the pack shut off, so you only see leakage voltage on the output when not connected to anything (and when it's plugged into the controller usually you don't see any voltage).

So....if you get a new BMS, I'd recommend a current capability rating higher than the controller's current limit (so the FETs aren't stressed), but a BMS current limit / shutdown protection the same as the previous one (to keep protecting the cells against over current).

Also using a BMS with FETs rated for much higher voltage than your system will ever see, may help prevent failures from voltage spikes.

Unfortunately it may be difficult to get enough information about any particular BMS to do these things, except with the programmable / bluetooth BMSs where you can buy one capable of more cells than you need it for, and more current than you need it for, and then just turn it all down in the software, and wire it up to just the cells you need. Disadvantage to these is that they are more complex and have more chance of bugs and unpredictable types of problems.

Unfortunately I don't have direct experience with any of the good BMSs to tell you which ones those might be (just bad ones, and old good ones that aren't made anymore).
 
The troubles continue, the controller resistor is smoking when powered up without battery. Not sure if I caused it by using the wrong charger or this what caused the bms problem to begin with. I'll probably have to buy the entire kit and rewire the bike.

My question now is, is it possible to test the motor if it's any good by connecting it to battery or charger directly?

Also, are 14s chargers different from 13s? I see 14s charger come with 58 volt, which is the charger I have, but this is a 48v system, and those only sell with 13s.
 
Last edited:
The troubles continue, the controller resistor is smoking when powered up without battery.
How exactly are you powering up the controller without the battery?

What voltage are you using, at what current limit?

Which specific resistor is smoking?

What else is connected to the controller, and how?


Not sure if I caused it by using the wrong charger or this what caused the bms problem to begin with.
?? You'll need to provide details of exactly what was done before all this started, since it sounds like there is quite a lot of the story we don't know, which means that any advice we give may be completely irrelevant and useless.

Without knowing what led up to your present problem(s), we can't give accurate advice. :(


My question now is, is it possible to test the motor if it's any good by connecting it to battery or charger directly?

What motor is it, exactly? Brushed? Brushless? Type / brand / model?

In troubleshooting, more details are better (and often required). ;)


Also, are 14s chargers different from 13s? I see 14s charger come with 58 volt, which is the charger I have, but this is a 48v system, and those only sell with 13s.
Yes, they are different, because they output differnet voltages. You can buy any type of charger separately from any type of battery; you just have to know what the battery's actual full-charge voltage is supposed to be, and what the max charge current the battery can handle is. Both of these are usually marked on the original charger's label.

A 13s battery is "48v", meaning 13 x 3.7v. It's charger actually charges the cells up to 4.2v each, so it's actual output voltage is 13 x 4.2v, or about 54v.

A 14s battery is "52v", meaning 14 x 3.7v. It's charger actually charges the cells up to 4.2v each, so it's actual output voltage is 14 x 4.2v, or about 58v.

If you use a charger for 13s on a 14s battery, it can never fully charge the battery.

If you use a charger for 14s on a 13s battery, it can overcharge the battery (assuming the BMS can't prevent it), and damage any electronics connected to the battery that cant' handle the higher voltage.

Overcharging a battery can damage the cells in a way that can lead to fires (just as overdischarging them can also do).
 
There's a blue resistor right by the top wall that's smoking when I connected charger using the two power wires. Interestingly, display turns on, but then resistor starts smoking. I realized while my charger is 58volts, it puts out more like 64, so that could've cooked it. There's 0 history available on the bike, other than it's a Addmotor M-60, with 750 watt Bafang motor, which I believe is brushless. As of now I ordered a proper 14s charger and similar bms. If the battery charges, I'll have to figure out testing the motor, before deciding whether to buy a whole ebike kit.

Also, is it possible to ballpark what kind of resistor that is, so I could solder in replacement?

I appreciate all the help, learning a lot!
20230409_124616.jpg20230409_124623.jpg
Screenshot_20230411_090447_Photos.jpg
 
Last edited:
I realized while my charger is 58volts, it puts out more like 64, so that could've cooked it.
Definitely stop using the broken charger you have before it destroys something or starts a fire, and mark it and tie a big knot in the cables so you can't easily plug it into anything, if you intend to try repairing it later, or get rid of it if not.


There's 0 history available on the bike, other than it's a Addmotor M-60, with 750 watt Bafang motor, which I believe is brushless. As of now I ordered a proper 14s charger and similar bms. If the battery charges, I'll have to figure out testing the motor, before deciding whether to buy a whole ebike kit.

Since the controller is brushless, the motor must be, as well, if they were working together at some point. (if it didn't work when you got it, then you can check the number of wires / pins on the motor's motor-to-controller connector; three to 9 or more is usually brushless.)

Brushless motors can't be operated without a brushless controller (or a complex setup of other stuff); definitely not directly from a DC source.

There's a blue resistor right by the top wall that's smoking when I connected charger using the two power wires. Interestingly, display turns on, but then resistor starts smoking.
<snip>
Also, is it possible to ballpark what kind of resistor that is, so I could solder in replacement?
It's likely that the resistor still works, just that the potting around it burned away. You can test that once you get your battery working and get the correct charger for it.

You can calculate what it might be, but I don't have the math off the top of my head. There are various posts and threads over the years discussing this general resistor, which in various controller designs drops the voltage from the battery to the controller LVPS, some of them have the math on calculating at least a guesstimated resistor value for a particular battery voltage.
 
I used this charger to test another 48v ebike without a battery and it ran the bike fine, no smoking. With new battery I was in business.
Definitely stop using the broken charger you have before it destroys something or starts a fire, and mark it and tie a big knot in the cables so you can't easily plug it into anything, if you intend to try repairing it later, or get rid of it if not.
 
Can someone also explain why this motor advertised as 750 watt, however, based on model it seems it's only 500.

View attachment 332495
The version of M-60 on their website that has the spoked wheels like yours states 500W. The R version with cast wheels wheels states 750W.
 
Makes sense, it may be able to max out 750 watt, but 750 motor maxes out at 1100 based on previous experience and can go 30 mph. I think I'll be just upgrading the entire set up. Battery is from 2019, so putting any more money into it probably not worth it.
 
I used this charger to test another 48v ebike without a battery and it ran the bike fine, no smoking. With new battery I was in business.

Something to consider: Just because you don't get immediate smoke doesn't mean you aren't risking a fire or damaging parts.

If the charger is marked as one voltage and outputs another, it has a problem. Whether that problem gets worse and eventually causes further problems (potentially including fire), won't be known until it happens. So by itself it's a risk to keep using, because it is either damaged or built wrong, or modified by someone in an unknown way to operate outside it's design ratings.

Secondarily, If you use a charger that outputs a voltage higher than the pack is intended to charge to, you will damage the cells in the pack by overcharging them, if the BMS does not or cannot prevent the overcharge. Such cell damage can lead to a fire, either immediately or at any point in the future, even just sitting there, or during charge or discharge.

It is very common for FETs that fail to fail stuck on, often with no visible sign this has happened, and overvoltage is a very common way to cause this damage. (they can also fail stuck on when physically blown up, cracked, etc). FETs in the BMS are the only thing that it has to control the charger input--if they're stuck on, the charger will then simply continue to charge the cells all the way up to the charger voltage divided by the number of series cells.

In this case, that would mean 64v / 13s = 4.9v+ per cell, vs the 4.2v they should be charged to. This is a severe overcharge, and as noted above creates a fire risk, even if it happens only once.

Note that if the BMS survives this usage, and it has balancers, and it's balancers still function (as they could be damaged by such overvoltage, too), it may drain those cells back down to 4.2v once the charger is disconnected, leaving no evidence to the user that they were overcharged at some point, but still leaving them as the same fire risks.


It's your equipment, money, and home, but I I would recommend strongly against using this charger at all, for anything.
 
If the charger is marked as one voltage and outputs another, it has a problem.
Here's where I am confused. Aren't all chargers put out more volts than they state on the label? For example, 48 volt chargers put out actual 54-58 volts. 58 volt = 64-68, etc. The 48 volt 14s charger I ordered would be putting out 58.8v per description.

I used the 58v charger for a 5-10 second test, which being a noob mistake I won't be doing it again.
 
Here's where I am confused. Aren't all chargers put out more volts than they state on the label? For example, 48 volt chargers put out actual 54-58 volts. 58 volt = 64-68, etc. The 48 volt 14s charger I ordered would be putting out 58.8v per description.

I used the 58v charger for a 5-10 second test, which being a noob mistake I won't be doing it again.
The 48v is just nominal, all chargers are capable of outputting more. The max voltage depends on what chemistry the charger was designed for as different chemistries have slightly different voltage ranges, for example 48v lifepo4 battery will have higher max charge voltage (about 58v) compared to 48v li ion battery which will have about 54v so if you were to charge a li ion battery with a lifepo4 charger, even though they are "48v" chargers, you would end up overcharging the li ion battery which isn't safe, some "smart" chargers can detect different chemistries and would refuse to charge if you plug it into something else however those chargers are expensive and not widely used.
 
. The 48 volt 14s charger I ordered would be putting out 58.8v per description.
Can you provide a link? If it's 14S and 48V, then it's not for lithium ion batteries. 14S fully charged would be 14 x 3.7V or 51.8V nominal (referred to as a 52V pack), and 14 x 4.2V or 58.8V fully charged. For lithium ion, what is referred to as a 48V pack is 13S, or 48.1V nominal, and 54.6V fully charged. The link should clear things up.
 
Can you provide a link? If it's 14S and 48V, then it's not for lithium ion batteries. 14S fully charged would be 14 x 3.7V or 51.8V nominal (referred to as a 52V pack), and 14 x 4.2V or 58.8V fully charged. For lithium ion, what is referred to as a 48V pack is 13S, or 48.1V nominal, and 54.6V fully charged. The link should clear things up.
 
Here's where I am confused. Aren't all chargers put out more volts than they state on the label? For example, 48 volt chargers put out actual 54-58 volts. 58 volt = 64-68, etc. The 48 volt 14s charger I ordered would be putting out 58.8v per description.

I used the 58v charger for a 5-10 second test, which being a noob mistake I won't be doing it again.
A charger is most often marked with it's actual voltage output, and it's actual current.

A battery pack, to make things confusing, is most often marked with it's *nominal* voltage output, rather than what it takes as full charge. :/

Either way, if you have a charger that outputs 64v, (or any other voltage) (regardless of what it is marked as) you should never connect it to anything that wasn't intended and designed for that voltage. If you aren't sure what something was intended to run at, don't connect it to anything that didn't come with it until you find out what it was supposed to be run at, or you can damage or destroy parts, or even start a fire. (and the fire can happen later, not immediately, from the damage that occured when it was connected to the too-high voltage source).

Even a less-than-a-second connection can damage or destroy parts in this way. It's not just theoretical, it happens. :(


Regarding pack vs charger voltages:

Presuming Li-ion batteries, with 3.6-3.7v nominal and 4.2v full charge per cell (not including LFP / LiFePO4, etc chemistries) then:

For a 48v battery, it's typically 13s, which means 13 x 4.2v full charge, so it's charger should be no more than 54.6, sometimes as high as 55. It shouldn't be 58v, that is too high by a whole cell's worth of charge, and if something goes wrong with the BMS it can allow the pack to overcharge, and damage the cells, which can lead to a fire.

For a 52v battery, it's typically 14s, which means 14 x 4.2v full charge, so it's charger should be no more than 58.8, sometimes as high as 60, but not usually.

A 58v battery isn't common; that would be 15s. 16s would be more common, usually called a 60v battery, equivalent to five SLA batteries in series, and thus found on a number of scooters. 18s is the next common size, which is usually a 67v, might be called 66 or 68. 20s, then 24s are the next common sizes.

In other chemistries, you may see other voltages and numbers of series cells.
 
For a 52v battery, it's typically 14s, which means 14 x 4.2v full charge, so it's charger should be no more than 58.8, sometimes as high as 60, but not usually.
This completely makes sense for the juiced scorpion I just got, but doesn't for addmotor m-60 with 48v architecture and 14s bms. Was the battery actually 52volt? Why didn't they advertise as such? Which charger should have I gotten?
 
This completely makes sense for the juiced scorpion I just got, but doesn't for addmotor m-60 with 48v architecture and 14s bms. Was the battery actually 52volt?
If it's a 14s battery, 52v average, ~58v full, then it's a 52v battery.

A 48v battery is 13s, 48v average, ~54v full.

14s is 14 seriesed groups of (however many) parallel cells. Usually the BMS has two thick wires to the main cell block + and -, and 15 thin balance/sense wires.

13s is 13 seriesed groups of (however many) parallel cells. Usually the BMS has two thick wires to the main cell block + and -, and 14 thin balance/sense wires.



Why didn't they advertise as such?

Different companies choose to use or ignore "standard" terminology and usage however they feel like it. What this company does I don't know--they could even have some products that use the common usages of terms, and others that don't. Many companies don't actually develop their own products, but simply resell other companies' stuff, and so they usually take whatever terminology those companies used and repeat it (unfortunatley, most often they appear to have no idea what any of it means anyway), so if they have stuff from multiple other companies, they may have inconsistent terminology usage as well.

Which charger should have I gotten?
Whichever one matches the full voltage of the pack you want to use it on. If the pack doesn't list this data precisely, you would have to open it up and see how many groups of cells it has in series, etc.

One way that is more certain than just counting the number of balance wires (because they don't all use the full number of wires--they may use the pack main + and - for two of the wires!) is measuring the voltage of each of those groups, starting at the most negative with your black meter wire on the main battery negative wire, measuring each group with the red meter wire inlcuding the main pack positive, and noting them down, will give you a list of voltages increasing in consistent steps. Knowing those, you can then compare to the the total measured from main pack negative ot main pack positive (which should equal the last group's measurement), and count how many steps you have, which is how many groups there are in series.
 
Back
Top