Better brand: Pinty or Voilamart?

[AHicks]

Donn, on PAS failure, or with it working, the throttle is totally independent. It would work normally.

 

[Nickelodeon]

You don't need to setup the PAS from these cheap hub motors, they accelerate exactly the same with a throttle. We've built a few MTB's with these Voilamart motors and they work perfectly. If you want quick acceleration you just start twist the throttle and pedal at the same time. Having PAS doesn't make it any quicker. Full power on the twist throttle while pedaling yourself is the same as pedalling with PAS on the maximum setting.

"If you want quick acceleration you just start twist the throttle and pedal at the same time. Having PAS doesn't make it any quicker."
Agreed. At the same time, PAS doesn't slow it either. IMHO, it's a very good investment in the cost, and the time it takes to install I honestly don't know why people would not want to install it. There is no downside to it!

I can easily tell you why it's better NOT to have it.

1. Less wires
2. Less trouble
3. Most importantly.. These cadence-sensored PAS are SOO bad.. They take so long to kick in and they don't stop until after a few seconds after you stop pedaling. Which means you MUST use shut-off brakes for your own safety - again more wires, more hassle, specially if you have hydraulic brakes.

A simple half-twist throttle gives you all the PAS you need. As long as the throttle is decent (and it is, even with these cheap ebay-kits) you can fully control the assist you want. Only want 10% assist? just twist the throttle a tiny bit. Need more? twist a bit more, you get the point. The power is there instantly with a twist and it is immediately gone as soon as you let go. No more waiting for PAS to kick in or to cut off after you stop.

Even more annoying, with the cheap controllers from e-bay-kits, the PAS is absolutely horrible. Regardless of the PAS-level it gives you 100% power but cuts off based on speed. So it sucks full power on every single assist level. Never ever will I build a bike with cadense-sensored pas.

 

[AHicks]

Nickelodeon, I have done 3 bikes, 2 of which I still have, all done with PAS that works acceptably. Actually, really well. Put it this way, I'm suggesting it's a feature you should try prior to condemning. Pretty sure I wouldn't be here risking being flamed by those that hear all the "internet truths" and start repeating them. I'm thinking many more will be happy than disappointed.

With the PAS sensor located on the crank, and many/most controllers located nearby, the length of wire between the 2 might be 18" tops. That's just not that much wire to have to look after. As far as "trouble", it shouldn't be any more trouble than your twist or thumb throttle, which by the way, has several times as much wire to get tangled up/in your way.

Worst case is you do get sucked into a combo with a delayed/soft start (they are NOT all like that!). You're throttle is right there. Start off with that and let the PAS catch up with you.

 

[MadRhino]

In EU, the law is pretty strict about low power and PAS. No doubt people get used to it and even like it.

Here, most are building fast bikes with power that is making common PAS dangerous. A good torque sensored PAS can be matched with power many times human input, but when the motor is fed motorcycle power, it is not a viable option.

With the growing popularity of BB drives, PAS should gain some adepts. Personnally, I am way too fast for PAS, even in mountain trails. My bikes can be bicycles because the crank is geared to pedal them, but they can be motorcycles as well with 20+ kw of available power. It is too easy with a PAS, to jerk full power accidentally.

 

[AHicks]

MadRhino,
I have to agree that a PAS equipped monster modified electric bike may prove to be trouble. That unexpected kick in the pants as the PAS engages could prove disconcerting under a lot of circumstances. Still, it could/would be easily tamed by limiting available amperage on the occasion where you didn't feel the need for your monster power. You might even get a few more miles on a charge with things tuned back a bit.

"Here, most are building fast bikes", is a statement I'll have to disagree with. I don't think that's the case at all. I think there are a LOT of people here that are curious, would like to learn more about their options, but when it comes to somebody actually building an all out fire breathing amp eating mod e-bike, those are in the vast minority (similar to motorcycles for instance). For every bike like that, there are hundreds more that are used for commuting, exercise, and just for the heck of it - mixing in with other bikes, people walking their dogs, etc.

 

[Ru14real]

Interesting conversation, but now I want to ask if its easy to upgrade to a better controller with a cheap fleabay brand. Maybe not, but I would like more information on it. I could see doing this after I get my kit. I still have not purchased one yet. Just still trying to get all the options, and options from places like this. The controler connecters on the wires look easy enough to swap out, as well as the power wires, Its just the rest of them I worry about.

 

[Nickelodeon]

Nickelodeon, I have done 3 bikes, 2 of which I still have, all done with PAS that works acceptably. Actually, really well. Put it this way, I'm suggesting it's a feature you should try prior to condemning. Pretty sure I wouldn't be here risking being flamed by those that hear all the "internet truths" and start repeating them. I'm thinking many more will be happy than disappointed.

With the PAS sensor located on the crank, and many/most controllers located nearby, the length of wire between the 2 might be 18" tops. That's just not that much wire to have to look after. As far as "trouble", it shouldn't be any more trouble than your twist or thumb throttle, which by the way, has several times as much wire to get tangled up/in your way.

Worst case is you do get sucked into a combo with a delayed/soft start (they are NOT all like that!). You're throttle is right there. Start off with that and let the PAS catch up with you.

I feel like you just cherry-picked the cons listed you want to reply to

So let me just add them for you here. You forgot to include the part about having to install new brakes with cut-off switches due to PAS. Specially if you have hyd. brakes that becomes a hassle. Again, that's 2 more wires + new brakes + installing + purchasing cost)

They may not all be like that, but these e-baykits definitely are - again, you already say use the throttle, you can just continue to use the throttle and completely forget about PAS. With throttle you can fully control how much 'assist' you want while pedaling. When the grade increases, you can just twist a bit more, if it's flat or downhill a bit less. You don't need to flip around in all the different assist-levels and when assist isn't needed (maybe ever so slight downhill) you don't waste battery on unneccessary PAS. Or do you turn off PAS everytime and then back on again afterwards? Seems like a lot of trouble.

You also gently skipped over the part about "with the cheap controllers from e-bay-kits, the PAS is absolutely horrible. Regardless of the PAS-level it gives you 100% power but cuts off based on speed. So it sucks full power on every single assist level".

But whatever, I think that a half-twist throttle is the best solution for any e-powered bike as you can much easier control your power-usage and assist in a much smoother, or more controlled fashion than PAS - at least any PAS that I have tried. (Bafang mid-drive, Bosch mid-drive, Bafang hub, voilamart hub etc)

 

[MadRhino]

"Here, most are building fast bikes", is a statement I'll have to disagree with. I don't think that's the case at all...

Well, here was meaning: here where I live. Very few ´legal power’ ebikes can be seen that people had built themselves. Either they buy one, or if they build one themselves it is much faster. That is because most are riding the mountain, trails or streets, where commercial ebikes are lame.

 

[MadRhino]

Interesting conversation, but now I want to ask if its easy to upgrade to a better controller with a cheap fleabay brand. Maybe not, but I would like more information on it. I could see doing this after I get my kit. I still have not purchased one yet. Just still trying to get all the options, and options from places like this. The controler connecters on the wires look easy enough to swap out, as well as the power wires, Its just the rest of them I worry about.

It is easy to replace a controller. They are not standard for wire colours, but they are well documented and it is not very long to find the matching connections.

 

[AHicks]

Nickelodeon-
"So let me just add them for you here. You forgot to include the part about having to install new brakes with cut-off switches due to PAS. Specially if you have hyd. brakes that becomes a hassle. Again, that's 2 more wires + new brakes + installing + purchasing cost)"

So not true, leading me to believe you've never even tried one, let alone installed one. PAS doesn't need a brake signal to tell the motor to shut down. It does that by default when you stop pedaling. Not some of them, all of them. Just like your throttle!

If you did need a brake signal, and didn't want to change your brake levers, a normally open switch/button can easily be installed in a place you prefer, like maybe replacing a button you are not currently using in the twist/thumb throttle housing. The only real use for that is to enable regen (assuming were talking direct drive).

Regarding PAS, bottom line is using them is your call. My issue is with people condemning them for no good reason, or all the wrong reasons. Again, most people will love them. They are SO worth installing, even if you decide not to use it.

Oh, regarding the "cheap controllers". Pretty easy to avoid them. Others may have figured out their own way, but personally, I would not consider one that is not compatible with an LCD3 display - even if you have no plan to use one (for whatever reason).

 

[AHicks]

"Here, most are building fast bikes", is a statement I'll have to disagree with. I don't think that's the case at all...

Well, here was meaning: here where I live. Very few ´legal power’ ebikes can be seen that people had built themselves. Either they buy one, or if they build one themselves it is much faster. That is because most are riding the mountain, trails or streets, where commercial ebikes are lame.

I'll give you that stock production bikes I've seen may not be the greatest for use in the mountains, but I couldn't disagree more regarding use on trails or streets. That's where I use ours, and I'm constantly being stopped by those that are VERY curious. Your local conditions may vary, but assuming those conditions are the same everywhere, would be a serious mistake.

To be clear, I'm not going to argue that more is not better in a lot of cases - to a certain degree. I'm fine with a very stock 1000w-1500w setup. Pretty sure I would find a 250-500 a bit boring - yet I see them in use everywhere. I would add that I'm a product of the 60's and 70's muscle car era, but drove those cars on the same streets with VW's and many other cars with just a fraction of the power I had on tap. We seemed to get along fine. They were not condemned because they didn't have similar power....

 

[AHicks]

Interesting conversation, but now I want to ask if its easy to upgrade to a better controller with a cheap fleabay brand. Maybe not, but I would like more information on it. I could see doing this after I get my kit. I still have not purchased one yet. Just still trying to get all the options, and options from places like this. The controler connecters on the wires look easy enough to swap out, as well as the power wires, Its just the rest of them I worry about.

It is easy to replace a controller. They are not standard for wire colours, but they are well documented and it is not very long to find the matching connections.

I agree. If I might share - I'm soon going to be installing the 4th controller in a now 2 month old Rad City (a bike I just love!).

I replaced the entire electrical system in a 3 week old bike, because I was used to power that came on nearly instantly. The stock Rad had a soft start setup. Not only was it down on power from what I was used to (650w vs. 1000w), that power took time to spool up (soft start). The 2 factors together/combined made my brand new bike feel like a total dog! Figuring if I'm going to get my hands dirty changing out the display and controller, I might just as well replace the motor as well - with a 1500w.

As it turned out, the controller part of that 1500w e-bike kit I bought (NBpower), was not right when it came to the cruise control engagements speed, requiring that it be going more than twice as fast as they said I need to be going, and, there was a feature I was looking for missing. This controller did not support the LCD display controlled headlight control. Both minor details I agree. So, I bought another controller, from a different company (Risun). That controller had the same issue with the cruise control engagement, but it was also missing the claimed regen feature. That was totally inop.

So today, we are waiting for the fourth controller to arrive (from pswpower), with fingers crossed.

Point being, I think it pretty safe to say you can upgrade a well chosen system pretty easily. The controller wiring IS an important factor. You will HAVE to have a well done wiring diagram available, and part of your selection process will include using that diagram to make sure it's going to work out from a compatibility issue.

 

[MadRhino]

...They were not condemned because they didn't have similar power....

No such thing here. Everyone is riding what he likes. This goes both ways, of course. Mountain trails or steep streets can be ridden with low power of course, but it is a situation where most want more. Once they had tried climbing with a bike that has the power to do it on a single gear without pedal input, the moment they realize they can do uphill jumps, very few of them want to go back to their commercial pedelec. That is the situation here, and the police doesn’t enforce ebike power limits, like they do in EU and AUS for an example.

 

[Bullfrog]

Back to the original posters question on 1,000w kits...I have it narrowed down to three...the Jaxpety, AW, and Voilamart.

Are the stators on these inexpensive kits usually based on a 205mm diameter?

What width/height are the magnets (stator width)? I know the Leaf is 35mm but I can't get anyone to answer my question on Amazon about the Jaxpety, AW, Voilamart kits.

Are the controllers that come with these inexpensive kits all roughly the same capability/quality?

I appreciate any and all comments/information...Thanks.