TylerDurden
100 GW
Might be a good opportunity for a third-party to offer upgrade kits...MitchJi said:
Cheapo motors..............
- Thread starter recumpence
- Start date
12p3phPMDC said:
I love your attitude. Ignore the elitists, and let the individual pursue whatever option they individually evaluate to be first-off-possible and then best for their particular needs. I honestly don't think Class 7 bearings are necessary for an "adequate upgrade", so I would definitely say Luke's upgrades expense record was a little above what the normal cash-conscious user would pursue and using the argument "It's more expensive to upgrade from crap!" sounds like a null argument from the perspective of the average user using reliable, but not uber-precise uber-expensive, parts.
12p3phPMDC
1 kW
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I'd disagree that it's completely different, i.e.expensive truck vs. hobby motor
You assumed that the parts on my truck were good quality, I beg to differ.
It would be the same ol stuff over and over.
I bought a product expecting a certain level of quality.
After running that product for a certain time, failures started occuring.
The internet forums solved the problem independently of the dealer.
both involve investments in time and money to fix the problems.
Sounds very similar to me....
I understand not wanting to buy crap from the get go....but....
I challenge any of you to come up with the good parts of these HXT's
for the cost of the entire motor. David the motor builder might...
You could water jet some motor iron into stators, find good stator coating,
assemble the stator, get the magnets, machine a housing, get it plated,
glue the magnets, wind the stator, make a shaft, get some bearings....blah blah blah.
lot's of time and money.
I consider the motor to be just another part......parts are parts are parts...you pick the bones
of the stuff you want and throw away the rest.
The investment in time for any of these projects is relatively high anyway....so you absorb
it in the build or just fork over more money for better parts as a whole.
So, are those Astro wires 12 ga or 14 ga? are they silver? I bet they have heat problems
at 100 amp.
anyway, it's a statistics game...do all the magnets on all the motors come loose....
are all the windings on all the motors messed up....no.
I don't become fearful of the entire assembly because they picked a bad snap ring.
I look at the rest of the assembly and am like wow....there is no way in hell I could
build it that well for that low....especially in small quantities.
I'm glad that Luke took the time to share his upgrade.....
The motor cooling steps he took are good (lapping and heatsinking)
The chromo shafting is good.
The bearings are good.
Anybody know of a good high temp adhesive for the magnets?
I'm thinking Plexus?
upgrade thread? hmm.....
You assumed that the parts on my truck were good quality, I beg to differ.
It would be the same ol stuff over and over.
I bought a product expecting a certain level of quality.
After running that product for a certain time, failures started occuring.
The internet forums solved the problem independently of the dealer.
both involve investments in time and money to fix the problems.
Sounds very similar to me....
I understand not wanting to buy crap from the get go....but....
I challenge any of you to come up with the good parts of these HXT's
for the cost of the entire motor. David the motor builder might...
You could water jet some motor iron into stators, find good stator coating,
assemble the stator, get the magnets, machine a housing, get it plated,
glue the magnets, wind the stator, make a shaft, get some bearings....blah blah blah.
lot's of time and money.
I consider the motor to be just another part......parts are parts are parts...you pick the bones
of the stuff you want and throw away the rest.
The investment in time for any of these projects is relatively high anyway....so you absorb
it in the build or just fork over more money for better parts as a whole.
So, are those Astro wires 12 ga or 14 ga? are they silver? I bet they have heat problems
at 100 amp.
anyway, it's a statistics game...do all the magnets on all the motors come loose....
are all the windings on all the motors messed up....no.
I don't become fearful of the entire assembly because they picked a bad snap ring.
I look at the rest of the assembly and am like wow....there is no way in hell I could
build it that well for that low....especially in small quantities.
I'm glad that Luke took the time to share his upgrade.....
The motor cooling steps he took are good (lapping and heatsinking)
The chromo shafting is good.
The bearings are good.
Anybody know of a good high temp adhesive for the magnets?
I'm thinking Plexus?
upgrade thread? hmm.....
spinningmagnets
100 TW
I recently started riding a bike for my health (early morning and late evening) and I'd like a little help on the hills. After reading a lot of E-S threads, I bought a bike, and made a few modifications so it would fit me better. I am "reasonably happy" with it, but now, I would buy a different bike (twice as expensive) that I am now certain would make me very happy as a long term transport. My part-time work is only 7 miles away, and the weather here is clear almost all the time.
So, I am apprehensive about an RC motor purchase. What if I buy one that turns out to be too small for my goals? or has too low/high of a KV? The motor choice also affects what voltage I would run, With a $60-$100 motor purchase, I'm not as worried about playing around, but for $300-$400 for the motor alone, I would want to get it right the first time.
Being able to test drive an RC E-bike before buying (simply unavailable) would assure me that a certain voltage and motor combination would satisfy my desires. In that situation I would not hesitate to spend extra for high quality parts. If I bought a certain $60 motor and had to fix the bearings and glued magnets ($25?), but then wanted a larger one,...I could later sell it for $50 as an upgraded starter-kit motor.
I believe there is a very big opportunity here for an RC kit marketed to retirees. When I get everything sorted I will be advertising free test-rides in my neigborhood (I am old and cantankerous).
So, I am apprehensive about an RC motor purchase. What if I buy one that turns out to be too small for my goals? or has too low/high of a KV? The motor choice also affects what voltage I would run, With a $60-$100 motor purchase, I'm not as worried about playing around, but for $300-$400 for the motor alone, I would want to get it right the first time.
Being able to test drive an RC E-bike before buying (simply unavailable) would assure me that a certain voltage and motor combination would satisfy my desires. In that situation I would not hesitate to spend extra for high quality parts. If I bought a certain $60 motor and had to fix the bearings and glued magnets ($25?), but then wanted a larger one,...I could later sell it for $50 as an upgraded starter-kit motor.
I believe there is a very big opportunity here for an RC kit marketed to retirees. When I get everything sorted I will be advertising free test-rides in my neigborhood (I am old and cantankerous).
recumpence
1 GW
Fly out to Chicago. I will let you ride both of my RC bikes. :wink:
If/when you build a bike, many of us here can give you the KV and reduction needed for your particular needs. That would eliminate the guesswork.
Matt
If/when you build a bike, many of us here can give you the KV and reduction needed for your particular needs. That would eliminate the guesswork.
Matt
12p3phPMDC
1 kW
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- Mar 16, 2009
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- 462
Matt,
you are very generous. You have given alot to the ES community already
for all the information you have published.
I just went to luncheon on Senior Services...
like handyman stuff and utility bill help or whatever needs to be done.
There are some amazing people that really know
how to give.
Electric bikes and trikes definitely could contribute
to enabling mobility in a way that is more
fun than the alternatives for older adults.
Anyway, here's to all you folks! I haven't had this
much fun designing and building in a while....
It's like RWP said, too much time behind a computer
you are very generous. You have given alot to the ES community already
for all the information you have published.
I just went to luncheon on Senior Services...
like handyman stuff and utility bill help or whatever needs to be done.
There are some amazing people that really know
how to give.
Electric bikes and trikes definitely could contribute
to enabling mobility in a way that is more
fun than the alternatives for older adults.
Anyway, here's to all you folks! I haven't had this
much fun designing and building in a while....
It's like RWP said, too much time behind a computer
liveforphysics
100 TW
The leads on the Asto motors are compairatively wimpy to the HXT leads. I just measured the diameter of the HXT wire leads, and it's bigger than 10awg, and less than 8awg.
I view the big HXT as a collection of parts to help you build a motor.
For $130, you get a good stator, and a good ring to hold magnets.
If David can't get some products to market, I'm going to re-wind my motors with square silver wire with ultra high temp rated enamel. I will design the wind to get maximum possible fill, and then terminate in WYE.
The temp limits on an RC motor are almost always magnet failure from over heating rather than windings failure. Im my 15year RC hobby, I've seen loads of burned up brushed motors, a handful of burned-up/de-magnitized inrunners, and I've never once seen anyone burn up the windings on an out-runner. The outrunner design encourages excellent magnet cooling, which the potential to get a LOT better from very easy adaptations. The stator cooling is also very very high if you mount your motors the way I did, and use that outstanding conductive path to transfer heat out of the motor. For these reasons, I'm kinda partial to out-runners.
Inrunners can of course be equally efficient, and they have a lot more ease in mounting.
Personally, this makes me like outrunner motors.
Also, quality control does totally suck, but the prices reflect that. I disassemble everything I buy and run through every piece to make sure I like what I see. Yet, I've still seen people use that motor right out of the box with a giant prop to pull a 20lbs RC plane straight up into the sky like a rocket with unlimited vertical (no stall point), and have tons and tons of flights with no problems at all. That's all it was really designed to do, and OMG, on an airplane, that motor absolutely kicks ass, and seems to be more reliable than you would think. Now, obviously spinning a prop is a lot easier job than having big side loads from chain/belt drive, so it's a lot different loading than the bearings it uses were ever designed/choosen to be handleing.
The circlip being anealed steel though... No excuse for that. I'm really hopeing they just got shipped a batch of snaprings that somebody forgot to temper, because that seems like such a poor move to make for a company that warentees every product they sell like Turnigy/HXT/HobbyCity does.
I view the big HXT as a collection of parts to help you build a motor.
For $130, you get a good stator, and a good ring to hold magnets.
If David can't get some products to market, I'm going to re-wind my motors with square silver wire with ultra high temp rated enamel. I will design the wind to get maximum possible fill, and then terminate in WYE.
The temp limits on an RC motor are almost always magnet failure from over heating rather than windings failure. Im my 15year RC hobby, I've seen loads of burned up brushed motors, a handful of burned-up/de-magnitized inrunners, and I've never once seen anyone burn up the windings on an out-runner. The outrunner design encourages excellent magnet cooling, which the potential to get a LOT better from very easy adaptations. The stator cooling is also very very high if you mount your motors the way I did, and use that outstanding conductive path to transfer heat out of the motor. For these reasons, I'm kinda partial to out-runners.
Inrunners can of course be equally efficient, and they have a lot more ease in mounting.
Personally, this makes me like outrunner motors.
Also, quality control does totally suck, but the prices reflect that. I disassemble everything I buy and run through every piece to make sure I like what I see. Yet, I've still seen people use that motor right out of the box with a giant prop to pull a 20lbs RC plane straight up into the sky like a rocket with unlimited vertical (no stall point), and have tons and tons of flights with no problems at all. That's all it was really designed to do, and OMG, on an airplane, that motor absolutely kicks ass, and seems to be more reliable than you would think. Now, obviously spinning a prop is a lot easier job than having big side loads from chain/belt drive, so it's a lot different loading than the bearings it uses were ever designed/choosen to be handleing.
The circlip being anealed steel though... No excuse for that. I'm really hopeing they just got shipped a batch of snaprings that somebody forgot to temper, because that seems like such a poor move to make for a company that warentees every product they sell like Turnigy/HXT/HobbyCity does.
12p3phPMDC
1 kW
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- Messages
- 462
Luke,
Where are you going to source the silver wire..?
And what about this 6.5" 50kW induction job
that you've been talking about...
Is that from the same dude that makes the killacycle motors..?
Where are you going to source the silver wire..?
And what about this 6.5" 50kW induction job
that you've been talking about...
Is that from the same dude that makes the killacycle motors..?
liveforphysics
100 TW
Jim Husted at hi-torque electric is the source for 6.5" 50kw induction motors (yep, same guy that does Kilacycle's motors). He seems to have a major hard-on for brushed motors, which I think are gross, but he also makes badass induction motors. I'm guessing he like brushed motors so much because the controller is so simple and durable.
As far as where to source the square silver wire, I don't know a source yet, but I do know it exists, because I've seen it back in my RC car brushed motor days on high-end custom motors.
Pure silver gives you about an 8.2% conductivity advantage over pure copper. Using square wire also provides an advantage in practice of about 5% better fill, at the terrible cost of your sanity during the many hours you will spend trying to wind it.
I imagine the wire will cost less than $200 to do both motors, and I imagine it could cut the inefficiency of the motor in half, which would effectively double the power handling capacity (half the heat for a given input power).
If nothing else, I love to tinker, and this should be a fun and cheap project to do.
As far as where to source the square silver wire, I don't know a source yet, but I do know it exists, because I've seen it back in my RC car brushed motor days on high-end custom motors.
Pure silver gives you about an 8.2% conductivity advantage over pure copper. Using square wire also provides an advantage in practice of about 5% better fill, at the terrible cost of your sanity during the many hours you will spend trying to wind it.
I imagine the wire will cost less than $200 to do both motors, and I imagine it could cut the inefficiency of the motor in half, which would effectively double the power handling capacity (half the heat for a given input power).
If nothing else, I love to tinker, and this should be a fun and cheap project to do.
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi,
Viewed in that light it makes total sense. Even though its a step down from a complete kit (doesn't come with all the required parts) it seems like a great way to save roughly a hundred dollars compared to an Astro and potentially end up with a better motor.
That's if you want to build a motor.
liveforphysics said:
Viewed in that light it makes total sense. Even though its a step down from a complete kit (doesn't come with all the required parts) it seems like a great way to save roughly a hundred dollars compared to an Astro and potentially end up with a better motor.
That's if you want to build a motor.
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi Miles,
Or (maybe another way of asking the same question) is the Astro about as good as possible?
If not how could it be improved?
Thanks
!
Mitch
MitchJi said:
Even replacing shafts, bearings and clips plus using a procedure like Luke's plan to hand wind square silver wire?Miles said:
Or (maybe another way of asking the same question) is the Astro about as good as possible?
If not how could it be improved?
Thanks
!Mitch
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi Miles,
I didn't know the stator was mediocre. For someone who wants to spend the time and save some money to using the HXT as parts for a DIY Motor sounded like a reasonable idea.
Maybe in addition to a thread on DIY upgrades for HXT Motors a thread on DIY motors might be of interest.
Thanks Again!
Mitch
Luke said:
Miles said:
I didn't know the stator was mediocre. For someone who wants to spend the time and save some money to using the HXT as parts for a DIY Motor sounded like a reasonable idea.
Maybe in addition to a thread on DIY upgrades for HXT Motors a thread on DIY motors might be of interest.
Thanks Again!
Mitch
Miles said:
Liveforphysic's rebuttal said:
That's why. But, indeed, copper/resistive-heating losses are only a part of the heating equation. What gets heated due to whatever magnetic heating effects and losses? If whatever that is isn't exactly a signficant limiting factor, then winding with the expensive wire on whatever stator laminations would drastically increase the maximum continuous power limit (Actually, my calculations show that a decrease in resistance by half means the current could only be increased by the square root of 2 for the power loss to be the same, so the continuous power limit would increase by ~1.414 with a 50% cut in resistance) and *that's* why it'd make sense.
I was trying to find some square silver magnet wire and had no luck...
I want to learn how to rewind motors might as well learn on a cheapie sure the wire is going to cost a bunch but I will practice with copper first then maybe rewind the cheapie with silver if it seems decent enough to try.
I want to learn how to rewind motors might as well learn on a cheapie sure the wire is going to cost a bunch but I will practice with copper first then maybe rewind the cheapie with silver if it seems decent enough to try.
liveforphysics
100 TW
This place seems to offer anything for wire:
http://www.silverstatewire.com/1233.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*
I suppose you could try silver litz wire rather than square wire, but with our relatively low voltages and switching frequency, you may find better performance from regular square wire fill.
Also, for anyone thinking about just jumping into square wire wrapping, it's an amazingly cruel thing to attempt. You first must wind the piece onto a large diameter spool with the length you need, but in a manageable size/weight to work with. Then you start with a couple of sacrifice turns that will late become termination leads just to get things held in place. Then you begin to wrap, and you use a wooden stick or a plastic airplane prop to mash down and lay every wire exactly in it's spot where it belongs. The higher temp coatings, and the higher performance coatings are generally much more fragile to work with, and less forgiving against abrasion and scratches, so you have to be gentle but firm, and you must lay every pass absolutely perfect with square wire if you want to beat a fill with round wire. Staggered round wire overlay done correctly is very good.
But, if you are going to put the effort into sourcing wire, and re-winding your motor, you may as well settle for nothing less than the best
I imagine we could get the KV in delta down to 80-90kv, and then terminating in WYE would set us up for ~45-50kv.
That could make for some interesting single stage drive possibilities.
http://www.silverstatewire.com/1233.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*
I suppose you could try silver litz wire rather than square wire, but with our relatively low voltages and switching frequency, you may find better performance from regular square wire fill.
Also, for anyone thinking about just jumping into square wire wrapping, it's an amazingly cruel thing to attempt. You first must wind the piece onto a large diameter spool with the length you need, but in a manageable size/weight to work with. Then you start with a couple of sacrifice turns that will late become termination leads just to get things held in place. Then you begin to wrap, and you use a wooden stick or a plastic airplane prop to mash down and lay every wire exactly in it's spot where it belongs. The higher temp coatings, and the higher performance coatings are generally much more fragile to work with, and less forgiving against abrasion and scratches, so you have to be gentle but firm, and you must lay every pass absolutely perfect with square wire if you want to beat a fill with round wire. Staggered round wire overlay done correctly is very good.
But, if you are going to put the effort into sourcing wire, and re-winding your motor, you may as well settle for nothing less than the best
I imagine we could get the KV in delta down to 80-90kv, and then terminating in WYE would set us up for ~45-50kv.
That could make for some interesting single stage drive possibilities.
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi Luke,
When you explained the difficulties you convinced me that Miles is correct. Your last sentence reinforces that conclusion.
If you are going to spend that much time I think you should use high quality parts throughout.
Miles said:
liveforphysics said:Also, for anyone thinking about just jumping into square wire wrapping, it's an amazingly cruel thing to attempt. You first must wind the piece onto a large diameter spool with the length you need, but in a manageable size/weight to work with. Then you start with a couple of sacrifice turns that will late become termination leads just to get things held in place. Then you begin to wrap, and you use a wooden stick or a plastic airplane prop to mash down and lay every wire exactly in it's spot where it belongs. The higher temp coatings, and the higher performance coatings are generally much more fragile to work with, and less forgiving against abrasion and scratches, so you have to be gentle but firm, and you must lay every pass absolutely perfect with square wire if you want to beat a fill with round wire. Staggered round wire overlay done correctly is very good.
But, if you are going to put the effort into sourcing wire, and re-winding your motor, you may as well settle for nothing less than the best
When you explained the difficulties you convinced me that Miles is correct. Your last sentence reinforces that conclusion.
If you are going to spend that much time I think you should use high quality parts throughout.
Hi Luke,
It looks to me like they sell magnet wire (round or square) but I don't make a connection between that and the Silver wire?? Not a big deal to enamel it yourself though, I guess. Or am I missing something?
I think you're right, we'd only gain by using Litz wire if it was for a coreless motor....
It looks to me like they sell magnet wire (round or square) but I don't make a connection between that and the Silver wire?? Not a big deal to enamel it yourself though, I guess. Or am I missing something?
I think you're right, we'd only gain by using Litz wire if it was for a coreless motor....
I don't know... All of this talk about cheap vs. expensive motors got me thinking a bit. Is everyone that is going the rc motor route planning a super-exotic build like Matt's? The main reason I'm playing with an outrunner is the small size and weight savings. I really don't care about going too much more than 20 mph on a bike. I think anything over 30 is just plain dangerous and frankly going to give the e-bike community a bad name.
Are the cheap motors going to be ok at lower voltages and speeds? So far the only person that looks like he's putting miles on a cheap motor is Grinhill. I don't think he's talked about problems yet (correct me if I'm wrong, I may have missed it).
It might just boil down to a matter of expectations. I'm currently using a Kollmorgen at 36 volts. It would fall apart at 72 volts but that doesn't mean it's junk.
Are the cheap motors going to be ok at lower voltages and speeds? So far the only person that looks like he's putting miles on a cheap motor is Grinhill. I don't think he's talked about problems yet (correct me if I'm wrong, I may have missed it).
It might just boil down to a matter of expectations. I'm currently using a Kollmorgen at 36 volts. It would fall apart at 72 volts but that doesn't mean it's junk.
recumpence
1 GW
It sure does seem people get offended really easily on this forum.
I guess everyone should just run what they want and not worry about what anyone else thinks.
This is like discussing sports or politics, it is not possible to discuss this without ruffling feathers.
I just wanted some input on why motors that are known for having major problems are still recommended.
I see this in my appliance repair business. People ask me what to buy. So I tell them (for one example) "Do NOT buy a Frigidaire top load washer. They are terrible."------ So, what do they do? They buy that piece of junk I just told them it is junk. Then they say "It was on sale!" Then one month out of warrantee it breaks down and they wonder why.
I totally do not understand the mindset.
I will lay it on the line. This is the main reason I started this thread;
I want to see RC motors excell in EV use. However, that is NOT going to happen when most people insist on buying low grade components. I have had numerous people tell me they are frustrated with the results of their RC EV project and are abandoning it. That is frustrating because it is normally the use of low grade equipment that pushed them to the breaking point resulting in abandoing RC equipment from use.
There is plenty of use for hub motors in E-bikes, Ping batteries, suspension, no suspension, regen, freewheeling systems, non-hub drives using the stock gear train, direct drive without using the gear train, etc. One thing remains consistant, though. In general, you get what you pay for. That is what I am trying to say. I agree that a $1,100 Terminator is not 3 times better than a Astro motor. Nor is an Astro 4 times better than a HXT. However, as I mentioned earlier, the motor and ESC are hugely skimped on resulting in frustration. There is a point at which saving money is no longer actually doing any good. The ultra high-end is not cost effective (unless you just want that last few % gain) and in the same way the ultra low end is disapointing.
As with many technologies, the ideal lies somewhere in the middle.
Matt
I guess everyone should just run what they want and not worry about what anyone else thinks.
This is like discussing sports or politics, it is not possible to discuss this without ruffling feathers.
I just wanted some input on why motors that are known for having major problems are still recommended.
I see this in my appliance repair business. People ask me what to buy. So I tell them (for one example) "Do NOT buy a Frigidaire top load washer. They are terrible."------ So, what do they do? They buy that piece of junk I just told them it is junk. Then they say "It was on sale!" Then one month out of warrantee it breaks down and they wonder why.
I totally do not understand the mindset.
I will lay it on the line. This is the main reason I started this thread;
I want to see RC motors excell in EV use. However, that is NOT going to happen when most people insist on buying low grade components. I have had numerous people tell me they are frustrated with the results of their RC EV project and are abandoning it. That is frustrating because it is normally the use of low grade equipment that pushed them to the breaking point resulting in abandoing RC equipment from use.
There is plenty of use for hub motors in E-bikes, Ping batteries, suspension, no suspension, regen, freewheeling systems, non-hub drives using the stock gear train, direct drive without using the gear train, etc. One thing remains consistant, though. In general, you get what you pay for. That is what I am trying to say. I agree that a $1,100 Terminator is not 3 times better than a Astro motor. Nor is an Astro 4 times better than a HXT. However, as I mentioned earlier, the motor and ESC are hugely skimped on resulting in frustration. There is a point at which saving money is no longer actually doing any good. The ultra high-end is not cost effective (unless you just want that last few % gain) and in the same way the ultra low end is disapointing.
As with many technologies, the ideal lies somewhere in the middle.
Matt
recumpence said:
I hope that comment wasn't because of my last post. I'm far from being offended. I'm just thinking out loud. I think we still need more time to see how some motors work out. I know I'm putting myself out there as being one of the guinea pigs. I just need to get my new setup running (should have been this weekend but not quite) so I can quit wondering if it's going to work.
The comment about bikes going over 30 mph wasn't directed at you either. I'm sure you're using the PK as more of a toy. I do, however, think some people will abuse a bike that's so powerful. I personally hope no one in my area gets a crazy fast bike. I just don't want that kind of attention drawn to us. But anyway... Like I said, I'm not offended at all. I do like a good debate but I hope my rambling thoughts don't offend anyone else either.
I just see this as a chance to learn the critical parts. I can destroy a $65 motor and not worry about it. When I purchase a terminator I don't expect to ever take it apart but if I do I am going to upgrade it. If I know how to do it before hand, bonus, it is that simple for me.
I certainly wish I had a mill and a press and lathe and etc... , G-code? I am a few years behind some folks, I never had cash for helicopters and no welders or carbon fiber but I would have, and will as long as cash remains a constant
.
I certainly wish I had a mill and a press and lathe and etc... , G-code? I am a few years behind some folks, I never had cash for helicopters and no welders or carbon fiber but I would have, and will as long as cash remains a constant
.Joepostal said:I just see this as a chance to learn the critical parts. I can destroy a $65 motor and not worry about it. When I purchase a terminator I don't expect to ever take it apart but if I do I am going to upgrade it. If I know how to do it before hand, bonus, it is that simple for me.
I certainly wish I had a mill and a press and lathe and etc... , G-code? I am a few years behind some folks, I never had cash for helicopters and no welders or carbon fiber but I would have, and will as long as cash remains a constant
True. I see the $65 motor as a "learning experience" before delving any further. I would much rather make ruining mistakes that I learn from with a cheap motor than an expensive one! So, it in effect minimizes my "learning expense" and I'm not the type that just abandons a project when it gets too frustrating(But, that's probably because I don't take on too many projects that are knowingly beyond my skill level and available equipment).
I really view my electric scooter as the "bridge" to getting an idea of what is involved with RC motors before pursuing it at a more expensive level. The fact that the electric scooter base was already designed to mount a motor made the transition a little easier, and the learning curve a little less steep.
