Cowardlyducks - E-BikeE builds

[Chalo]

the Maxxis Hookworm is an excellent choice of tire in that size. The Schwalbe Big Apple 16 x 2.0" is even fatter and more supple for a smoother ride. Most other tires in that size are for children's toy bikes, with all that implies.

I'm still suffering something like post-traumatic stress from a long weekend I spent riding a rental BikeE for transportation in early 2001. My first recumbent experience test riding an Infinity LWB made me skeptical; the BikeE made me certain that recumbent bike layout is an irreconcilable mistake.

EDIT:
Just to be fair, I've never tried riding a SWB or high racer style 'bent. Those would have to be different (not necessarily better) due to a greater front wheel weight fraction.

Surely, with a smooth riding surface and plenty of room to wobble, a recumbent is at least safe enough to ride for recreation. But it is no mystery to me at all why they are banned from most mass-start cycle races. It has nothing to do with inherent advantages.

 

[Alan B]

Interesting to hear about the Hookworms, I've been using the Schwalbe's and they ride very nicely. I haven't tried them on any 16" potholes, I try to ride on roads and anything with potholes big enough to swallow a 16" wheel doesn't qualify as a road.

The handling of the BikeE is different from a standard bicycle and at first it feels a bit "out of control", but it isn't really - it goes where you point it. People used to standard bikes tend to overcontrol it and make it wobble, but like anything one gets used to it and learns to control it adequately. The amazing efficiency and significantly reduced back and neck strain is traded for the precision feel of a taller bike.

 

[rowbiker]

I can understand Chalo's discomfort encountered during his riding of bikes with uncommon architectures. I've ridden just about everything out there on two wheels, human powered, motor (ICE or electric), or both. Some have required more effort to master than others.

My current project is an electric assist Rowbike (no pedals, and a cable steering system). Having just passed 12,000 miles on my current "commuter" (38 miles RT), a short wheelbased recumbent Bacchetta G20, I would argue that recumbent bike architecture is not a "mistake". I ride year round in the Twin Cities of Minnesota, so I encounter a fair variety of surfaces. This recumbent is faster and more comfortable for me than the many prior road, mountain, or hybrid bikes I've put tens of thousands of miles on (I'm now 66 years old). As they say, of course, YMMV.

As to the tires for electric assist, we're using the Big Apple Plus 20" tires on the Rowbike, which at 75+ pounds of completely unsprung weight, depends entirely on the tires for safety and comfort. Just don't ride on smooth roads with a very thin and wet mud film on them with these tires!

 

[StudEbiker]

Rowbiker, don't make the mistake to think you can convince Chalo of anything, if it's not right for him, then it's not right for anybody and that's just the way it is. :wink:

Regarding tires, I use Hooks on my Bike E and 100psi Kenda Kwests on my girlfriends. I definitely prefer the Hookworms. I tried Schwalbe Marathon + Supremes (or whatever they were called) on my Dual 20" RANS Rocket (not electric) and hated them. I think when I need to replace tires on my Bike E I am going to go with a Holy Roller in the rear and a Hookworm in the front. The Holy Roller is my favorite e-bike tire, but they don't come in 16" the last time I checked. They seem to be lighter and have a softer ride than the Hooks so I guess I'll just have mismatched tires.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I'm liking the hookworm on the front so far...haven't ridden it in the wet yet though. I have a feeling (just looking at it) that it won't be the best in the wet and I'll have to take it real easy.
Anything wider than the 1.95" of the hookworm won't fit the standard BikeE front forks anyway. I just mounted a Planet bike front fender last night...very tight fit with the Hookworm. I had to bend the fender support legs in an S shape in order to spread the rear of the mounts enough to clear the hookworm tire and push the fender in such a way so it doesn't touch at the front. Even then it still scrapes occasionally.

I'm using a Maxxis M-Tread 20x2.1" on the rear.

Liking it so far, it seems to grip really well and handle all the weight (100kg+) quite well at the 70PSI I'm running it at...although I accidentally mounted it backwards. :lol: Will have to fix that next time I take it off.

Cheers

 

[The fingers]

Many tires are uni-directional, which must affect wet weather performance to an extent. An often ignored quality from quite a few bicycle and motorcycle tires I have observed which seem to be mounted backwards. :?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Well, it had to happen sooner or later...after less than a week of commuting, I had my first stack on the Bike-E today.

I was cruising down the bike path, on a relatively straight, flat section of path. There were a couple of casual riders ahead of me riding side-by-side taking up probably 2/3 of the path. I did my customary ding of the bell as I approached, but they had barely moved over by the time I had reached them.
As I passed I went a little too wide and went off the path onto some rough grass/dirt. Normally this isn't an issue as I can then come back onto the path in a matter of meters, however the path in this section was raised up about a 1/2 inch over the surrounding ground. Trying to ease back up onto the path wasn't going to happen and before I knew it I was approaching a large ditch, with a storm drain. I still hadn't let off the throttle through all of this as I was determined to casually cruise past these people as if to say a patch of grass/dirt won't slow me down. :lol:
Next thing I knew, my back wheel had sunk into the ditch after I managed to avoid it with the front. That then catapulted my butt way to high to maintain control, and the bike started to go down to the left. By this stage I was still going fast, I stupidly put my leg out to catch myself (and the bike), but it wasn't enough and the left handlebar hit the ground hard, stopping me pretty abruptly.
Thankfully the people I passed stopped to see if I was ok. I told them I was, and technically it was my own fault and sent them on there way.
My left leg is in a pretty bad way...I think it's a sprained knee ligament and calf muscle, or possibly a very minor fracture, but nothing I can do anything about but rest it. I've also got a pretty nasty cold at the moment so the cold/flu meds I've been taking are likely masking some of the pain.

Apart from that, the bike is mostly ok considering. I snapped the left grip in the fall. These are pretty tough grips with a solid inner core I had used to extend the handle bar width somewhat. I'm glad I did mount them like this as I think the grip took the brunt of the impact probably saving the rest of the bike somewhat.
The chain also came off, which proved very difficult to get back on. I ended up having to force it past the frame in a bad way which scratched it quite badly unfortunately. There's also a scratch on the head stem, which I first thought was a crack thankfully not.
The pics should tell the damage story better.

This isn't damage, but just showing how my front fender is mounted...it got pretty bent out of shape in the crash, but thankfully I was able to bend it back with no ill effect.

Lesson learned...don't power through rough stuff on a recumbent with no suspension. :lol:

Cheers

 

[The fingers]

Wow, praying for your complete recovery! :wink:

 

[rowbiker]

You're absolutely right about NOT putting your leg out to stop yourself if the odds of going down are likely. When I've stayed clipped in during crashes, the worst leg damage has been road rash. Last June I put my leg out to "try to recover" when my back end went sideways on a patch of thin mud on slick pavement, and got a busted kneecap out of the deal. First bike crash of a dozen I've had over the years that I couldn't ride away from. All told, over $40,000 in medical bills -- "US healthcare system is the best in the world", I'm told. Glad I have insurance.

Had I kept my leg clipped in, I'd have had only some minor bruises, since I was already slowed down, and with recumbents "you don't have so far to go" to hit the ground.

Good luck with your recovery, and I hope you can avoid surgery.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Thanks for the prayers Fingers.
Thanks for the comments rowbiker. I don't think I'll be needing surgery. Today it feels more muscular as I can hardly squat on that leg due to the pain/tension in the calf. The knee is also quite swollen, so I imagine it's just a matter of waiting it out.
The worst part is I'm moving house this coming Saturday. Trying to do it with friends...something tells me I won't be much use, but good thing I'm part of a caring church community, so lots of people coming to help.

Something else I forgot to mention in my 'crash report'...on the way home yesterday, about 1km from home, I ran out of battery for the first time ever on this bike.
As mentioned I've re-used my old Stealth Fighter battery for this build. It's a 1Kwh 16S 20AH LifePo4 pack with BMS. When I last had it on my Fighter with close to 400 cycles, I was only managing 13.5AH (700Wh) from it before the BMS would cut power at around 43V. Using it on the BikeE with far less Amps draw, I've managed (I think) nearly 800Wh, so 15AH roughly. I think the extra load from me not pedaling at all is what caused it to run out yesterday, as I've done far more km than this previously without running out. I think the 7 speed DNM 11-28T freewheel unit I'm using is creating far more drag than normal. It's very loud, and before I mounted it, it would not spin as freely like my other DNM freewheels I've mounted to my fighter before. I was hoping it would 'break in' and free up, but something tells me it may be defective, or have bad bearings.

I'm moving about 4km closer (riding distance) to the city on Saturday, so running out of juice with the current setup shouldn't be an issue after that.

Cheers

 

[Chalo]

Yep, that's pretty much what the BikeE I rode felt like it was planning for me the whole weekend I rode it. I was only too happy to hand it back to the shop where I rented it.

Also, leg suck. It has been known to break femurs. Normal bikes don't do it; recumbents do. The moral of that story is don't put your feet down while underway.

 

[Alan B]

Sorry to hear about your crash. Gives us all something to think seriously about. I have come to think that trying to slide is better than trying to stop anything, but things happen so fast you don't always respond the way you'd like to.

After my fall a year ago I've decided to reduce the speed a bit and pass more carefully, there are times for going fast and there are times where it may be better to sit back and enjoy the view.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I will admit the ride can be a bit rough/unnerving at times when traversing rough sections of bike path with lots of roots underneath at speed, but I'm learning how to position/brace myself for that so I'm still in control. I would have loved a BikeE with suspension, but can't complain really when I got this one so cheap. It's lighter weight and higher efficiency is appreciated comparative to the suspended version.

I'm also still dialing in the tire pressures. I think I've got the rear at a good point at 55PSI now. It's soaking up smaller bumps well, and I still feel in control. Looking down at it while riding, I can't see any bulge on the sides of the tire, like I've seen on my Fighter tires when I run them at the minimum 15PSI.

The front still feels a little harsh, but I've already dropped it to 40PSI, so getting pretty low already. I might try 35PSI and see how it goes. There is hardly any weight on the front anyway, so really low tire pressures can work I think.

I see others only going down to 70-80PSI minimum though. Am I risking regular pinch flats with so low pressures? I don't gutter (curb) hop, or ride anywhere with large pot holes. The worst I tend to encounter are badly formed gutter (curb) ramp lips for driveway's, bike paths etc. The worst one's are about 1/2 an inch, and I tend to slow down to less than 30kph for them anyway.

Cheers

 

[Chalo]

Pinch flats are a function of bump sharpness, speed, tire pressure, tire width, wheel diameter, and load. The lighter the load, the less everything else matters. A wide tire, loaded lightly, can be ridden at extremely low pressure without problems. I expect that you'd encounter handling issues (lateral instability) from low front tire pressure on a BikeE before you'd be at significant risk of pinch flats, unless your route is strewn with square-edged hazards.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Pinch flats are a function of bump sharpness, speed, tire pressure, tire width, wheel diameter, and load. The lighter the load, the less everything else matters. A wide tire, loaded lightly, can be ridden at extremely low pressure without problems. I expect that you'd encounter handling issues (lateral instability) from low front tire pressure on a BikeE before you'd be at significant risk of pinch flats, unless your route is strewn with square-edged hazards.

For once I agree with you Chalo. I think I will drop the front to 35PSI for my next commute.

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I've been riding this bike almost every day to/from work for the last 4 weeks now.
Apart from my fall as posted above it's been relatively good. I'm still recovering from the crash as I think I strained the muscles in my leg pretty badly.
I did have another few minor falls.
Anyway that aside, the 30+ successful commutes show me that this bike can and does work well as a commuter. It's just a matter of dialing it in, getting used to it.

I'm now running the front tire at 30PSI, and the rear at 50PSI. These pressures are good for comfort and controllability over rough stuff, but are reaching a limit in terms of rolling resistance and consistent cornering traction. Somewhere between 30-35 Front and 50-55 Rear seems to me like the golden spot.

I found this site the other day.
http://tachyonlabs.com/my-bikee-recumbent-bike.html#Mods
Tons of useful info on others BikeE mods.
I particularly like this one of a guy who put a 20" fork and wheel on the front of his BikeE. Not sure if I could be bothered as I don't know how much of a difference it would really make to the handling and comfort.

One other thing that happened, which is a bummer, is the top of my seat frame pushed through the corner of the seat back mesh. I'll try and get a photo at some stage to show, but basically the corner of the seat mesh has just worn away till the pole could fit through. Now the seat mesh on that side slides down while I'm riding. Funnily enough it makes bumps feel a little less pronounced as the upper part of the seat mesh is no longer firmly against my back to transfer the force of the bumps into my upper body.
Anyway, since a new seat mesh is over $85 I'm going to try repairing it first. Just bought some very cheap nylon stick on patches last night to see if they will hold it together. I don't want to spend much on trying to fix it as then I would just be better off buying a new one.

Sorry for the long post...riding this bike every day puts a lot of thoughts into my mind of things I could improve.

Cheers

 

[Alan B]

Ouch. Sorry to read about your falls. Brings back memories of how angry I was with myself when I fell last year, and how long it takes to heal. Some bits are still not fully strong yet.

I found that putting an on-off or kill switch on the handlebars makes the bike much safer. It can be kept safely off till needed. This switch can either supply the low current logic power to the controller, or short the throttle out to disable it, so it does not need to handle much power.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Thanks Alan. Yeah the falls suck, but won't deter me. 8)

I already have an on/off switch on the handle bars. Problem is I don't use it enough...I like to maneuver the bike using the throttle to make things easier. :lol: Problem is it can quickly get away from me with the 50+ NM of torque this thing has.

Today I rode home from work with a heavier than normal load in my backpack of about 15-20kg. I'm traveling interstate for work next week so had to bring my shoes and laptop home with me. The extra weight at the very back of the bike did make the front come up a little easier, so I had to be careful with the throttle, although not as much as I was expecting.
Quite unexpectedly however, the ride was smoother than normal. The extra weight over the rear tire seemed to help make the tire absorb far more bumps than without it. Maybe this points to the need to reduce the rear tire pressure even more. Although I did notice it felt a bit sketchy around corners...almost as if the tire was beginning to roll away from the rim. So I'm not so sure if I really can reduce the pressure much more.

I found a slightly fatter tire I will get for the rear after the current 2.1" one wears out.
http://www.velogear.com.au/bike-par...es/20-bmx-tyres/maxxis-grifter-bmx-tyres.html

At 2.3" these might be able to handle 45PSI without issue.

Cheers

 

[Chalo]

Also check out the CST Operative 20 x 2.25". Maxxis and CST are both brands of Cheng Shin Tire, and there is often a less expensive counterpart of any given Maxxis tire under the CST brand. I sell the Operative at my shop for something like $16 retail. It's a good street tire with nice ride quality and low rolling resistance. There are tires with a lot more flat protection, but none of them will ride as well or cost so little.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I finally got round to mounting my CA to this thing.

I sandwiched a mount from an ebay e-bike light between the mounting bracket and the CA back, then secured that to one of the unused bottle holder bolts. Seems to hold it well and can be adjusted easily.

Since mounting I've come to realise 2 things:
1 - My previous controller programming to limit current was not working...AT ALL.
2 - I need way more peak power than I thought to make this thing feel alive.

Since dialling in the Rshunt value and setting the wheel diameter correctly (this CA was previously mounted to my Stealth Fighter), I found setting the amps limit I previously thought was sufficient is actually woeful. I can still feel the CA lag clamping the amps.
So I tried more and that feels like it used to, but seems like the sensible bet that gives good acceleration without risking a flip every time I take off.
Lately, on the hotter days, as soon as I get home I put a desk fan onto the motor to prevent the halls from cooking.
The controller gets hot, but not too hot to touch. I added some thermal pads between it and the frame and it seems to be helping transfer the heat to the frame.

At least this is still within spec of the Panasonic 18650BE cells I plan on using if I do a 6P internally mounted pack, but if I reduce it to 4 or 5P I might need to lower the amps or change cells.

Apart from all that, the bikes been working well still. I had the seat mesh rip through one of the seat post poles, but was able to repair it quite easily with some thread and a lot of stitching.

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

So I blew my controller on the weekend.

I was trying to discharge my battery, which was fully charged, so I could plug it in and adjust my chargers amps output on the fly as I've done many times before.
I guess I tried to discharge it a little too fast. Well repeatedly forcing a stall is probably never a good idea anyway. :lol:

A new (identical 6Fet Infineon) controller is on it's way from EM3EV. I was tempted to get the 9 Fet, but the dimensions would not fit nicely in the frame.
For the next controller I think I will take off the case, spray it with some electrically insulating varnish, cover it with heatshrink, and bolt it directly to the frame via the MOSFET screws.
The other option I was considering was sealing it up and filling it with mineral oil, but that could get messy, and it adds extra weight which I don't need.

In the mean time, I've dug out my 18Fet controller from my Stealth since it's still out of action currently.

This controller works...most of the time. It still has an annoying undiagnosed, intermittent problem picking up the halls signal. It periodically shudders, and forces the controller to cut the throttle after a second. The shuddering can range anywhere from 1min to 10min typically. As it usually occurs while riding, I just put up with it pulsing the throttle occasionally to keep my speed up even though it shudders me and the whole bike like mad. It kinda feels like someones put a giant phone under me and it's vibrate ringing really strong...not in a good way. :wink:

Once they are released I think I will get an Addaptto Micro-E for the BikeE. At the same time, I'll get a Mini-E for my Fighter to replace this 18Fet.

I think I might try and repair the blown 6Fet at some stage. No idea if I will be able to as I can't tell if anything else nearby got damaged from the FET blowing, but a FET is cheap, so it won't hurt to give it a try.

Cheers

 

[Alan B]

Bummer.

Having a backup controller is a good idea.

The sinewave controllers monitor actual motor current and should be better protected against this type of problem.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Bummer.

Having a backup controller is a good idea.

The sinewave controllers monitor actual motor current and should be better protected against this type of problem.

Agree 100% on the backup controller. If I can repair my blown 6Fet it will become my backup until I can get the Adappto's.
The Adaptto controllers (and screen) have all kinds of protections that should prevent a multitude of failures including the ability to run sensored and sensorless. So if the halls blow, or disconnect, I can still get home.

I've inquired about when the Micro-E will be available, but not in too much of a hurry. I still need to get the ATS speed drive and install it first and that will reduce my available funds for E-bike stuff anyway.

Something else I've been seriously contemplating, is a small solar panel fairing. I'm only looking small, but think I could get away with a very simple 10-20W panel up front wired to a small MPPT(ish) DC-DC converter.
At this stage this looks like the best converter:
http://www.amazon.com/SMO-10-60V-Constant-Current-Converter/dp/B00QZYX8KE

But I'm not sure on the best panel/s to use. I need them/it to be no larger than 350mm x 200mm. Some of the flexible panels on Ebay look ok, but not sure on quality and efficiency. I'm also after relatively low cost. It will only really be useful to me if I can do it for less than $250.

The main reasoning behind doing the solar panel setup is I leave my bike locked up outside at work every day. It's not always in direct sunlight, but it should still get enough to generate at least some charge. It's sitting out there for 6-8 hours every day, so even if it only manages 5W average continuous charge that will still give me 30WH which is 2km more range for this bike.
The range will probably be increased more by the gained efficiency of having a wind break in front of the bike instead of my body which is like an air scoop currently. It should also help keep me a bit warmer through the colder months when riding.
So lots of benefits beyond just the minor charge through the day.

What do others think. What is the best value, high efficiency small 10-20W solar panel in a small size like above?

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I've re-evaluated my dimensions, and with some good mounting (away from my spinning feet and knee's) I should be able to fit a panel up to 500mm L x 380mm W.
One of the best panels I've been able to find so far is this one.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/20W-12V-...LS-CHARGER-PORTABLE-WATT-10-40-/251490817966?

This is 20W, so would be ideal for me considering the area's I leave my bike are often not in direct sunlight, but shaded completely or partially at best. It should also prove good as a wind deflector being just a bit narrower than my handle bars, and about as long as the the majority of my torso that currently catches the wind.

Still keen to hear from others on this, but I'm getting increasingly itchy to try this now. Especially considering it looks like it should be able to get the parts for less than $150.

I've also found a lower power DC-DC converter that will still do the job, but has similar specs.
http://www.amazon.com/DROK-Converter-Voltage-Regulator-Charger/dp/B00BZR9PBW/

It doesn't do constant current, however I doubt 12V 20W boosted up to 58.4V will ever exceed 1A anyway.

Cheers

 

[icerider]

That DC-DC converter should be fine with panels up to 100W. I have used this one http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00F0E0F2E

I used this controller with up to 200W of Renogy flexible panels and with output charging levels up to ~3.5 amps at 37 volts. which is actually over-driving the converter.

I used a small 12V CPU fan driven by a separate little 6W panel from a solar "floodlight" to cool the converter. That provided PLENTY of cooling air flow for the converter. If your "big" panel V(open circuit) is <20V you can probably run the fan directly off the big panel voltage but the downside is that when the battery is low, the converter will load the panel down to ~10 volts or below and the fan will run slower just when you need maximum cooling. When the battery is full, the fan will be running on Voc and going VERY fast, just when you don't need any cooling. When I ran the fan directly off the large panel, I used the sound of the cooling fan to tell when the battery was fully charged and I could roll the bike out of the sun.

Just set the voltage limit to something near your high voltage cutoff (whatever you are comfortable with) and it will charge to that level and stop. You can set the max voltage by driving the converter with the panel in full sunlight and no output load. The converters are amazingly insensitive to input voltage, but it is a good idea to hook it all up to a partially discharged battery and let it charge until the charging current drops to zero and then check the voltage again to be sure you are comfortable with it.

You can read more at http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=62700