Current Cycles Prototype Buildlog...

[bandaro]

So wait, the gears are what, 6mm wide? and you have been running them for how long or have you not built the gearbox for them untill now and have not run had your bike running since the previous gearbox blew on you?

Do you know at what power/use the box blew or just guess at what the moptor made? Do you have a link to a gear power/torque or deswign guide or factory specs that they have? what material are they, a steel or a stainless? thanks for the link, but it does not specify what material is used, nor heat tratment or anything, lol... but thinking about it you heat treat yourself rihgt? thats awesome... you got a kiln or oven to treat or a what? I take it that the steel is quenched fast not slow? still trying to learn the practical aspects of metals despite getting a hd in metal design...

Edit: if you dont understand that just say, i wont feel bad... juts got back from the pub myslef... lol, im aussie...

 

[bandaro]

ok, to save a double edit coz i hate thodse things, just a sign of my brain damaged state:

Im unfamiliar with the mod pitch, only use imperial for rc reasons, but do metric work the other way? because i would imagine one would go larger pitch than 0.8 (that im familiar with), so I am assuming that the 1.5 you linked is what was used and larger than 0.8? so does metric work in a logical pattern, ie going up...

 

[Byte]

"Like!"

 

[Whiplash]

So wait, the gears are what, 6mm wide? and you have been running them for how long or have you not built the gearbox for them untill now and have not run had your bike running since the previous gearbox blew on you?

Do you know at what power/use the box blew or just guess at what the moptor made? Do you have a link to a gear power/torque or deswign guide or factory specs that they have? what material are they, a steel or a stainless? thanks for the link, but it does not specify what material is used, nor heat tratment or anything, lol... but thinking about it you heat treat yourself rihgt? thats awesome... you got a kiln or oven to treat or a what? I take it that the steel is quenched fast not slow? still trying to learn the practical aspects of metals despite getting a hd in metal design...

Edit: if you dont understand that just say, i wont feel bad... juts got back from the pub myslef... lol, im aussie...

OK I think I can answer you... LOL!

The pics I just showed are of my new completely built by me gearbox that is yet to be assembled. The gears are 3/8" wide and will be hardened by me. They are carbon steel gears and will take to heat treating well. I plan on using the torch and quench in engine oil method for these first run set and I will likely try to find a shop that will do it for me for future builds...

 

[Whiplash]

I got a bit more done the other day, I made up the top and end plates and will drill and tap them so I can assemble the whole thing. I think on the production model, I will just use a 2" wide by 3" tall piece of bar stock and simply mill out the box. I think it will take less time and be better from a rigidity standpoint. Then all I have to do is cut a top for it and I am done. I am looking into making mount brackets more like Recompense does, but a little simpler. I am thinking basically a block with a radius cut in one side and a t bar style hose clamp to wrap the down tube, then I will drill holes on the sides and put a rivet through the side of the down tube to stop it from rotating under power. Just and Idea, but I think it will work well. It would be really light too and that is something I am really shooting for. I will keep you posted, work has been hell lately so progress is slow but I'll GET ER DONE!

 

[Whiplash]

Well, no progress on the box yet, Its just too dam hot outside! 118* today!! BUT I did get the new 3077 FET controller from Lyen with the three speed switch so I can take it easier on the current gearbox, and once I get the new one done I can let her rip!

 

[Whiplash]

Ok, I have been thinking of a way to ease construction of this box so I can sell them for a resonable price and I think I came up with something that will help the form factor as well! I originally was to have a chain transfer power to the gearbox, and I was not using it for any reduction. Sooo, I decided to run a 3:1 ratio there into the box with only two stages so 9:1 plus the chain input for 27:1. The best part is I get a much shorter unit overall! Also, I will be milling the unit out of a chunk of aluminum to save the time truing up all the pieces to fit perfect. I think these things will really help the quality and cost as there will be less labor. In production I will just contract out the box housing as I am sure they will do it in seconds not an hour like I will... I will post pics of the new design when I have them..

 

[etard]

2" x 3" ? I didn't realize it was that small. I was bored this morning so I researched some alternatives to the milling operation of solid aluminum bar stock and found some tubes on ebay that might work instead. You probably want to go .250" wall thickness and could probably order some rectangular tubing in that dimension, but there is one seller on ebay selling 2" x 3" square tubing with 1/8" wall thickness. I also found this : http://cgi.ebay.com/aluminum-block-2-1-4-x-6-1-8-x-6-1-2-/260804041880?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb921dc98

It looks like a pretty good deal if you wanted to mill out the boxes.

Another option would be to use steel tubing

And yet another option would be to sandcast your own! Although not a very good option in 120 F heat! :lol: Put some AC in that garage already!

 

[Whiplash]

I actually considered casting, and may try it! If I can make it faster casting the parts I will, also, the tubing sounds like a possibility! If I can cut the manufacturing time ill have a winner! I just need to work out the little details!!

On a different note, the RC bike prevailed this weekend! My brother rode his MAC powered bike without the ability to pedal at all (broke the freewheel mount on the cover) and we did about 30 miles from Redondo beach to Venice beach and back. His batteries gave up (10ah) with about 4 miles remaining so I TOWED THE FROCK BIKE home! Lol! AJ, I know you will be pleased to hear that! Lol! Burned only 5AH on the whole ride with a good bit of pedaling, but that includes the last 4 miles @ about 15mph towing a 60lb bike with a 170 passenger!! How's that for efficiency!! I could have gone much faster but he had to hold on to the bungee cord we were using to tow him so second gear on low speed

 

[Whiplash]

Well, I think I have decided to go with the tubing... I found this stuff http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220423054773&category=29402&_trksid=p5197.c0.m619 on Fleabay and will be ordering it on my next paycheck. I think it will work out really well, and I will be making a mount bracket out of aluminum sheet metal bent to fit around the frame, or possibly make a custom bracket using some of those really strong T style hose clamps. One thing I realized with the new design, is it will work for MID drive AND Left side drive bikes! All I have to do is change the sprocket on the first chain stage to something they would want on a left side drive bike, mount the freewheel adapter on the other side and its done! Ratios of 27:1 or even more, all the way down to 9:1 can be had! I am glad I have been spending time staring at this thing so I can make it the best I can! Should be a real winner and I should have a working prototype very soon!

THANKS ETARD! for prodding me to look for an easier path! Its actually going to be better AND easier! when the hell does that ever happen??!

 

[Whiplash]

Well, I got the new sprocket for the input stage, so all I need is the tubing to show up and I will get this thing together FINALLY!
Tough to do this stuff on a shoestring budget!!

 

[etard]

Good Job man! So you think 1/8" wall thickness will be substantial? will you be boring the sides for flanged bearings? I was thinking you could attach a 1/4" Aluminum plate to the tube for stiffness and heat dissapation from the motor. Can't wait to see this gearbox in person, I hope to be back up and running around the time you finish this. Maybe we can go up to Idyllwild and cruise around.

 

[Whiplash]

I really think so, due to the fact that I am using 1/8" right now, it should be OK, not to mention the fact that it is fully boxed in this situation. I am still figuring out the way to mount it, so I may end up doing it like my current setup that sandwiches the box between two plates that bolt to either side of the bike frame, and I might tie it to the bottom bracket for easy installation, just drill frame for the threaded inserts, pop them in, unbolt the pedals, slide the side plate over the bottom bracket and bolt it up! At least that is how I am envisioning it... but that can and does change sometimes obviously! LOL!

 

[ptd]

for the rectangular tubing, you might try onlinemetals.com , the prices are a little higher, but they've got a pretty good selection
the only problem with the tubing though, is assembly. might just mean having to keyway the gears and the shafts though, but this has an added benefit, it makes replacing a gear trivial. looks like a great little gearbox. basically like a stanton 18:1, cept smaller, and a helluva lot cheaper, i imagine ($100 for material maybe?). nice thinking. the only other thing i see as problematic is the noise, could you just add a little insulation to the outside of the case or something?

 

[Solcar]

Excellent work! What you are doing is like the gearbox on my ebike to get 23:1 at the output shaft. Gearboxes don't have to be noisy, ether, if the build is right. :wink:

 

[Whiplash]

Thanks! Yeah I will have to make the gears removable somehow, not sure yet how, possibly just use four set screws from each side and Loc-tite retaining compound, that stuff has to be pressed off with a hydraulic press if its used correctly! I will likely just weld them in for the first box and then figure out the mounting for production. I will need to test it a lot before i can sell them. As for the price, I am hoping to be able to offer it for around 300ish, but I will have to see if I can build them fast enough to make that a reality. assembly and final machining are the expensive parts, the gears/sprockets themselves are around $150.00, but they need to be machined to fit the box and the set screws etc. But at that price handling hopefully 5000ish watts, and being pretty quiet, it should be a winner for sure since that much power in a mid drive will be insane!! Keep in mind, that the noise only has to be less than the R/C motor itself, which is not the quietest thing in the world and it will be in an oil bath too, so I am very hopeful it will work as designed! I will be offering complete bikes as well with a custom built E bike frame coming into the picture some time soon as well!

 

[ptd]

ya know, you don't have to limit yourself to the rc build... plenty of other markets, like regular low turn motors, and even the gassers.

ps, keyed shafts, not welded, is a solution to how you could assemble it, if you went with rectangular tubing.

and whats with huge bosses? seems like a lot of added weight, for, rigidity? one thing that might be of use though, is some of the bosses on the smaller gears have the same daimeter as the bore on some of the larger gears, hmmm... you might be able to thin it up even more.

and what would it take for a little 1kw build? anyone have any sources for thinner gears? aluminum or delrin maybe?

 

[Whiplash]

Well, my original build with the low cost pit bike box would likely handle that power level for quite some time! I thought about offering those all cut down ready for install like I have mine right now for just the cost of machining and the plates to mount it. I could do something like that really inexpensively in quantity if there was a market for it. Truthfully, it would make a great lower power box, it just cant handle more than about 1200ish watts for any length of time. I could mill off the clutch bell housing and make an adapter for the cheap pit bike sprocket for the input shaft. I might actually do that just as a starter box to offer... I have on on my bike right now and it works great if you take it easy on it and don't ever start in higher gears. I can give 5:1 and up to 25:1 with those and pretty much anything in between.. I am using 25:1 with the smaller 63-74 aerodrive motor and it will climb ANYTHING with only 1200 watts!! The main reason I am building the new box is so I can be confident it will hold up to any rider, not just me being careful with it....

 

[Whiplash]

Still using the old design box for now, but this is a ride I just did yesterday, I know its noisy, but like I said, this is NOT the finished product and was built using nothing but hand tools and a vise! LOL! The new box is a totally different animal! Smaller, Lighter, more accurately built and much quieter! The main reason this box is noisy is the design of the little pocket bike box I used, has no dowels to locate the two halves when you bolt it together, so when you power it up, it shifts and the gear mesh gets all screwed up. I wanted to fix it, but I am just building the new one since these are power limited anyway. I did not edit this vid, so there is a lot of boring parts, just skip through if you like or watch it all! Truly not bad at all considering I only used about 4ah on the whole ride!


[youtube]QtZ90y1cqPg[/youtube]

 

[Whiplash]

Ugh, still waiting on my darn tubing! I was expecting it to get here Friday, but nothing... Hopefully I will get it soon so I can get it built up now that I have a good design... I think everyone will really like it, I know I do! I am anxious to get the unreliable box off the bike and this one ON so I can start testing it!

I recently added up everything and I think can offer the complete drive, plus mounting brackets, motor good for 3000 watts+, controller, hall sensor package and throttle. Basically everything needed to get you bike running except the batteries for around $500-$700ish. I am really excited because that is not much more than an Astro motor all by itself! Granted its NOT an Astro, but with the gearing, you might think it is! I am really excited here, I hope this will take off! I figure if I can keep the price around that of an inexpencive Hubbie kit, I should be IN the game!

 

[Whiplash]

Hooray!! The tubing FINALLY got here!! This is the final size of the drive. Now I have enough to get 5 drives made up, I just need some more gears!! I should have some good progress this weekend if the wife lets me! Lol!

Obviously the gears go inside the tubing, the only parts outside are the sprockets the small one on the motor of course, and the large one, (2.9" dia.) Is the input to the box and also the first stage. I can't think of anyway to make it more compact, I think its going to be awesome! Not bad for 25:1!

 

[ptd]

I can't think of anyway to make it more compact, I think its going to be awesome! Not bad for 25:1!

as far as compact is concerned, it DOES look like it's a little thick still (is that an optical illusion ?). but i still say there's tons of boss material that doesn't need to exist. and i still think you should make a recess in the bore of the boss of the big gear, to the outside diameter of the boss of the little gear. it also looks like the boss diameter is over half the pitch diameter. you might have to turn that down a little so there's no interference between a pair of them (could be another illusion).

one thing i hadn't thought of when i mentioned keyed shafts for assembly, was that you'd need keyed bearings too (well, at least one side). one way around that might be to have one bearing on the outside (at least a little, which iirc was the case in an earlier pic), in a sleeve (which i don't remember), with a groove for a retainer clip (in other words, how were you planning on keeping it together ?). then just turn the shafts down at the ends. put the gears in through the end, slide the shaft through, slip the bearing on, and pop the clip in.

so what's the final sets of ratios ? it's a little fuzzy to count, lol. looks like 15's and 50's. then maybe a 12 and 27 on the sprockets ?

can't wait to see it all done up, should be great

 

[etard]

If it was any tinier, I would have to laugh at it's size! :lol: Amazing work Brian, I hope those gears harden up for you, this is a great accomplishment.

Can we put a two speed in there?! :wink:

 

[bandaro]

Damn, looks like a winner, what are the gears like, they hold up fine without too much noise? The tubing will be strong enough? Bit like 20 questions, but just a few more, can we get the material. pitch and tooth counts? And are you running these gears on your current bike, if so whats the lifespan seem to be, or is it too early to know?

A two speed would be great, but somewhat defeat the purpose of a bb drive, it has enough gears already. I am thinking I should make a downhill bike for my next build, but 3 speed instead of bb. Would that be an option with gears like these? The size is very nice.

 

[Whiplash]

The gears will need to be turned a bit to fit inside and I will be thinning them down as much as I can for weight within reason since tat takes time and time is money. That being said, I might offer a weight reduction program for the real weight conscious... As far as the aluminum tubing is concerned, it is extruded so I am very confident it will be strong enough. The finished product is only going to be 1.5" thick plus the outer sprocket thickness, so if it was any thinner you couldn't find it! I am amazed that anyone thought it was bulky, it is BY FAR the thinnest setup on the forum that I have found.

Thanks for the kind words guys, for those asking, this IS the prototype, so I have not yet assembled the first one, the previous box was a totally different approach and this one is FAR superior. I hope to have this one together this weekend but likely not on the bike yet. I am excited to try it out, it should be really cool when finished and hopefully very quiet since it will be in an oil bath. As for holding the gears in place, I am not sure yet, but there will likely be thrust washers on both sides and either dimpled set screws AND Loc-Tite brand "retaining compound" that by itself might do the job, so it should be fine and still be able to be disassembled if needed. I have thought long about keying the shafts, but there is not enough material there and I fear it would weaken them and also the small gear, does not have enough material to be keyed I think... I MAY key the output shaft for strength though since it is 1/2" thick I think it would be OK.