Deecanios first build the "DC1"

ok,

thanks to some saturday night phone support from Jozzer he managed to get me up and running - the halls being my problem, the mini dins i used are shite and i connected directly to test and the bike fired into life,hurray!!
i was going to do as fechter advised and just solder the halls direct but i get the feeling that this wont be the last time that wheel is out in the very near future :roll: so i butchered the connecter off the xlyte halls as i still had the opposite plug to that.
lots of very careful soldering later i connected the plugs and the bike spun up again no probs. took all day to get everything on the bike and cabled up nice and tidy (i hate to lash and test).
had to resort to the original seat to test as mine needs....errrr making.
i had run it up with only one cell whilst testing the cables so I was crapping it a bit and it must of took me 10mins to muster the courage to connect one black battery lead to the other cells red one :lol: but in it went and measured 81v :twisted: plugged in and no smoke, twist the throttle with wheel off the ground and looked ok.
decided being as i'd spent a long time on it i may as well go for a quick ride even though it was dark and cold, and again a bit of a mixed bag...


bike pulled away as usual but on giving it some throttle i noticed it wasn't as smooth as on 36v, the mottor seemed to judder more under load (uphill under power only could feel vibration through the seatpost), maybe just because it's under more power but definately noticable. Thinking about it now i had just put the wheel back on and other noises point to it not being quite true, i can hear the disk rub slightly under power especially uphill, as i say this could just be my wheel setup i remember it took some time to settle last time out and ended up being very sweet and quiet.
couldnt really see a problem but i think some balancing will help no end.

Anyway the bike ran ok, i stuck to my block which has a good grade (17% at a guess) and did a few laps and some uphill on a slip road. it didn't feel quite right mechanically as i said so i didn't hammer it too much due to the vibration under load.i realise that motors give judder and noise but previously it was so smooth that something isn't quite right for sure.
i whipped up and down a few times and was quite happy with the performance hike :D top speed was 30.9 mph (max wattage i saw was 1775w) !!! this is more than enough for me, i remember last time out when 17mph was the limit and i was really dissapointed but then when i rode 36v in the forest 17mph was good ,but just needed a little more in places, so with that in mind 30mph is going to suit me just fine :) . torque was good too, up my road which is the biggest grade (maybe 17% or at least 15% anyway) the puma pulled me unassisted at 17mph which is great, that means i can get up the trails faster than my old top speed hehehehe.
overall it was a pleasing boost for the bike but it's not all good news i'm afraid :cry:

After a few speed runs averaging 30 or so i had a slow pedal round the block again to try up my road uphill again, i got to the bottom and started up the hill again the bike pulled really well and i got to about 16mph halfway up, then just as i got to my door the bike died, the drainbrain went out with "low voltage" displayed as if it had lost power and then came back on but only read 18v??

i thought i smelt a faint burn but im not sure as my sense of smell is destroyed through smoking and i can't be sure :? convinced i just experienced a battery bms blow/controller failure i picked the bike up and went upstairs, i was frozen and thought that all was lost again for a while :cry: didnt check to see if anything was hot but it's a cold night think alll was well on the heat front.

after defrosting with a coffee i looked at the bike again and wondered how the hell the db had shown just 18v? i hooked it up again with one battery and it read 39.7v and all seemed ok? spun the wheel and it throttled up to max no problem - mmmmm well check the other cell, 38.2v, throttled up to max and no problem again? :? (the difference didn't bother me as one charged higher than the other to begin with)
ok, so i decided to hook it back up at 72v - db says correct voltage, lift wheel and away it went, full throttle no problem.
so i rewire the packs the other way round and it still works fine?
maybe it only does it under load? i could really test this properly but it happily pulled me on the bike for 5 feet or so, so i guess it's working again but i wont be able to tell until i get more time.

very weird, i did think of one thing, my db is version 1.0.6 or something and justin told me that as long as it was this version i should be ok at 72v but to be sure i should check a certain resistor, which i didn't do :roll:
it would make sense to me if the db cut the power and then once i'd cycled the power by trying one batt it reset and everything was fine then?
i'll take a look just to be sure, also looking at the battery cables there not great at the inline fuse connectors - i should cut these down and put my own andersons on i think.anyway i'll have another snoop around and see what happened but it looks like i haven't done any major damage (unless you guys know different?)

All in all i like the step up in power and i think that the puma at 72v will do me proud for storming around the forest :lol: even on this 20a controller it was much,much better and hopefully once i sort out ALL my cabling and settle my wheel and brakes it will be sweet as.im hoping that the cut out wasn't anything major and i can run this controller for a few months until i get the 320 puma and 30/35a controller for christmas :)
The performance of the bike tonight has really made me confident i will be able to build the bike i'd hoped for, now where's my kona stinky deeluxe frame :twisted: ??????????


Cheers all and thanks for all the help with my bike, is that me in the 30mph club then???? just. :)



D
 
i have no clue mate :roll: im hoping knoxie or jozzer know more about the bms on my point 1's
i was full throttle at the time and going uphill unassisted, so could be - the weird thing is everything seems fine at the moment...... i thought as i was running in series i wouldn't have a lvc ??
i wont use the bike until i get some feedback from knoxie and jozzer just incase i have done something but it seems ok now - i'll know if it is when i ride it again i guess.
it could be just something tripped under stress? what happens if your batt bms shuts down? just a quick off with power and then it resets?

ride was good though, hehehe i like this 72v scene better :twisted: 8)

cheers



D
 
Hi M8

Hey sounds good, I would be very surprised if the Point-1 packs crumbled at 20A, as long as the batts still charge ok? I would be mega surprised.

check both packs with your DVM make sure they both read roughly the same, the BMS on both packs should be ok.

The new controller should be ok as well, you are the tester on this run, I also have one of those here as well, on an Xlyte controller it is even more mental! see how you get on with your rig as it is, I still think 150v fets on the Puma is the key, I am convinced high back emf from the freewheel is killing the fets on std controllers, even 100V fets may blow from high magnetizing current, 150V fets that I run on mine seem to make the difference, I havent had an issue since.

I must do a 72V shakedown test on the Puma with my 150V controller and the batteries to make sure, its very very fast on 72V 35A in a 26 inch wheel!! harmonics and high back emf are bad news for fets and when those fets blow, they short and then you get the compounded effect of all that going back in to the BMS that is only rated at 55V, make sure you dont run the packs too low, keep an eye on the BMS and dont motor past maybe 8AH @72V total to be safe.

Let me know how you go.

P
 
hi mate,

yeh dont really know what happened to be honest but im grateful that everything is still working, would like to know what it was though.
i am thinking of keeping my xlyte controller - maybe i should get the 150v fets and run that? not sure if it will be safe to do so but i bet 35a is a hoot :)
hehehe, lets just see how this goes and i'll keep reporting back.
there was 1.5v difference on my packs after use but i had only used 2.4 ah from full charge.
i remember mentioning a while back that one of my packs seemed better than the other but i haven't charged them in months so hopefully it will level out.
how does the bms work knoxie? if i charge them 2moro and they charge ok does that mean my bms is definately ok? does it monitor discharge too?

shit i better go to bed, 2.42am :shock:

catch up with you guys tomorrow, thx for all the help 72v was a blast :)



cheers



D
 
Hi

To bed!! I can get up late, check your pack voltages first before you charge them, I very much doubt you will have a problem, 35A is even more scary however I think 35A will be too much for the Packs in series, you sound happy with what you got, play with that!! and have some fun, I will try the 26 Inch motor the same way, the cogs should give up before anything else as the BMS and the controller have been modified to cope, nothing should blow.

The Puma at 72V 35A is moped time, 35-40mph no problems at all just scary doing it and no peddling can be done, I am just as happy at 37V and peddling! ha ha.

Cheers

P
 
Deec, if you havn't charged your pack for months then probably they were going flat. they self discharge at a slow but steady rate. I'd guess it was LVC on the packs. I've never played with these packs though...

For the jerkiness, check your connectors one more time. I usually find the motors feel smoother at higher RPM, though some motors do have a jerkier start than others it seems. This new 260RPM seems smoother than the older prototypes for instance.

Charge her up and have another go Deec :lol: (but remember gloves and scarf, its DAMNN cold out there today! *Me wipes tears from face and looks on ebay for a balaclava*)
 
Hi jozzer,

i dont understand - do you mean that the pack cut off - does the bms monitor the discharge and cut if it drops below a certai voltage?
yes probably didn't help that the packs had been collecting dust for a few months and your right they were fully charged to 41v but had drained themselves to 38v ish, i did recharge them before i rode it but one cell went to 41 and the other only 39.5 ish?

Hi Knoxie,

yes i will check the packs (although did check them last night and one was 39.7 and the other was 38.2) then put them on charge,im just hoping that they charge ok and everything looks about right.
what was you best guess as to my power loss? battery bms?
as far as power goes with my current motor 20a is plenty at 72v and i will run this motor and controller for a while until i get my hands on a 320 and 30a controller - do you think that being as the 320 is rated at 500w that it will be better suited to 30a as opposed to my 250w puma?
i have to gut and rebuild the bathroom from weds so i wont get much chance to look at the bike this week, i'll try to recharge tonight and may get out on it again but can't be sure.
The controller i have is nice and smooth with it's power delivery is good - although it runs up to a much higher speed you can tell that it's not running 35a like the xlyte.
Anyway im happy the bike is now quick enough for me and when i get everything running smooth i'll give it a bash in the woods :) i'm just keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn't cut out again, still not sure what happened but im sure more testing will reveal all - should i monitor the cells as i charge them tonight? - ie. stop charging and check voltage? i dont want to overcharge if the bms did crap out? worry,worry,worry :)


cheers


D
 
Yes m8, although I dont know the specifics of the BMS, it damn well SHOULD cut off when each pack gets low.
 
That would make sense however i dont get the 18v reading that came with? weird thing is that whilst reading 18v the bike still throttled and went down to 17v but again the db went of/on again and read 18v.
maybe it needed the power cycling to reset the bms?
it is totally possible its a bms problem (i say problem, its not really) i will know once i have charged again tonight.
small niggle aside it was a good ride - im just hoping that i dont get any more cut-outs after a short ride, i'd hope to get at least 8ah at 72v.

Cheers


D
 
Those packs are 15ah right ?

The 18v reading is normal when the battery bms shuts you down and goes into protection mode.. un-plug and reconect the power to reset it (kinda like a breaker in a house panel )

I have the same problem with my LiMn packs, the BMS is rated 35 amps, and it trips on a 20amp controller, even tho the controller is limiting to 20 amps.. it's not exactly limitng as far as the battery sees it..

at low speed when your controller chops the poweer ( pwm ) some power spikes exceed 20 amps. and then some.. and can cause the bms to shut you down.

I'm cracking my fancy plexy boxes this week and bypassing the BMS ! :twisted:
 
yeh 15ah mate, the point 1 packs - thanks for that info Y that puts my mind at rest that it was indeed the bms, i'll try again tonight and be a little easier with the throttle.
i'm not to happy about bypassing my bms so i'll leave it be for now, i will get more of an idea how and when it happens the more i ride so i will keep note on how it behaves.


Cheers


D
 
i didn't test that controller to see what the limit was myselft, but I'll bet it was low battery voltage rather than too much current...
 
Hi M8

Clearer Head today was a little drunk last night when I was reading your post! ha ha.

OK It was for sure the BMS cutting out, there are a number of reasons for this but it is most likely a big hike in current dropping the voltage in one of the packs and the BMS cutting. They have LVC per cell in the packs, if one of those goes below 3.9V it will cut the power by switching off the return on the negative side of the battery, it will hold this condition until you disconnect the load and re connect it again.

You may need to cycle your packs a couple of times, also remember that these packs dont work quite as well in the cold, I know that you and Jozzer got the phase configs sorted, can you test the no load amps for me, do it on 37V if you are worried, just lift the back wheel and hit full throttle and check to see how many amps your rig is pulling?

It should not vibrate any more at 72V? I did notice those controllers do jump to full speed a little though, the last bit of throttle isnt linear it jumps just like the old stock BMC motors used to.

Anyway it sounds like your packs survived the LV cutout, after they have charged they should be 42V roughly, make sure the charger lights go red when charging and are green when they have finished charging. The charging Andersons are those cheapo Chinese copies, I cut mine off the battery and chargers (remember only cut 1 wire at a time!!!) and fitted real ones as I was having problems.

Double check all of your connections as well, there is an outside chance if it is vibrating badly that you have had a fet fail open circuit, unusual but can happen, this will make the motor a little tricky to start but once started would make a noise and vibrate, get someone who doesnt smoke to sniff the controller and the batteries, the smell of burned out components is quite easy to detect.

Have fun and stay safe, 72V 20A is a lot of power, treat it with some respect and stay away from the business end as you can get a nip at 72V under the right conditions.

Knoxie
 
Hi Guys,

thanks for all the tips and useful info - i will check all my connections and see how they are, the batteries aside all other connections have been replaced.
That said i do remember changing the cell connections and the chargers for andersons really early on, i'll double check them though to be sure.
Not sure if i will get any time to do this tonight but i will try - i think it will all be ok but i need to iron out the niggles and then it'll be sweet.
in relation to paying the power aspect respect no worries, i treat my cells like they are uranium :shock: and just connecting in series gives me the willies - would a 72v 20a zap be enough to kill? if so i'll get the mrs to do it :evil:
once the quirks are ironed out i would like to cut the leads on the cells so that they specifically fit for series connection, as it stands i have way to much slack from the batteries - also i have two inline fuses on the red leads which are quite bulky, maybe change these for inline blades?
i'll get some pictures up so you guys can see the wiring - i will try to re-charge later and see what i get after a few cycles, like i said though it has always seemed to me that one cell performed better than the other.
anyway enough summising - i'll get some more testing done soon but i have to get stuck into this bathroom soon :cry:
never enough time to play these days, bahhhh!!!!!

cheers guys,


D
 
Hi

Yes one wire at a time! ha ha, the reason I say that is that the charging leads are not fused, they are straight across the battery! sounds bizarre but it is, you can actually charge the battery down the battery lead itself, the BMS just trips out on under and over volts.

72V can kill you, it depends on your skin, heart etc etc, people have died with a lot less so yes be very very careful, not to mention the mechanical power, the wheel suddenly spinning up could do your hands some serious damage so just air on the side of caution, I have an emergency stop on the bars right by my thumb for this reason, along with a throttle limiter very useful for inquisitive police officers or offering newbies a go.

For sure the xlyte controller would blow that one out of the water as you have 15 more amps to play with however this is a lot more for the pack BMS to happily shift and having burned 3 of them I know enough! prying those packs apart is a scary job!

Keep an eye on each pack voltage as this is important, the BMS will cut out if any cell drops too low, if you can do a test with each pack on 37V and see how much you can get out of each one before it expires, if possible ride the same route to make the test as even as possible, as it maybe that 1 of the pack cells may be weak and is causing the whole system to shut down, I have seen this happen on the first point-1 pack I had, you could only get 20A out of it then it would let go, splitting the pack and swapping out the pouch would fix it but its a hell of a job.

So do a load / capacity test on each one and then test them in tandem if they look OK, don't continue to use them though if it keeps tripping as you may just may have a problem.

If you can pull 30A out of both packs right up to about 8AH capacity then there is not much wrong with the packs, I have been thinking of knocking up a choke for them at 72V, its a bit wasteful but may help with the back emf and odd reflections on the phases, that said a bullet proof controller with bigger fets 150V is a good idea, my 150V controller has never failed at 72V.

Sod the bathroom mate get out there and get it all ready, the holidays are coming!! think how much fun you can have in the snow, I did on the KMX! its all prepped up and ready to blast when the snow hits, 37V 20AH! ill be chilly after a long ride on that!

Knoxie
 
"would a 72v 20a zap be enough to kill? if so i'll get the mrs to do it "

To do the job properly you should wire her up to at least 150v, if 72v only wings her then she's have your gangles for gutswag! :lol:

PS, Dear Judge, this was only meant as a joke, I didn't actually think Deecanio would murder his wife just to get out of starting the bathroom!
 
HEHEHE i wouldn't kill the wife, what would i eat in my dirty clothes?
seriously though is it enough to kill? in fact dont tell me or i'll never wire in series again!!
i'll have to mark the cells and keep an eye on each, maybe i do have a dodgy cell on one pack but wouldn't that induce lvc even if i was running one pack?
been meaning to get a kill switch fitted by hasn't happened yet, must buy one from ebay and wire it up.
i'll check the voltage of each pack tonight and then recharge them - i vaguely remember one charger seemed to charge less too? tell you what i'll charge them with the dame charger and see what they both top off at.
i did get the red lights whilst charging and green when they were done but again one charged quicker than the other but this could all be just they are new and i have ridden on one cell twice as much as the other,although i think the weaker one has had more charges!!
i'll take better note of the voltages at all stages and i'll try to do the load test on each pack as soon as i can.
will post up soon as i get to test - try for tonight but feel knackered after the weekends persuits :)

cheers


D


cheers


D
 
Hi

Yes good Idea use the same charger on each pack, I used to use my watts up meters in series on each of my NIMH packs to monitor the input charge, they were so closely matched.

12V DC can kill! there was a case where a mechanic had a cut in his hand and got spiked, generally though low voltage wont kill you of course however above 40V and its starting to tingle, go to 90V or 100V and its starting to hurt, the big problem with DC is the fact your muscles tend to clamp which makes it hard to let go, alternating current whilst still very dangerous doesnt clamp the muscle as much.

Still best to avoid any shock if you can, get and do that load test first you can do that in 5 mins? just hook it up lift the wheel and look at the amps on full throttle, the reason I ask is that a certain phase arrangement can produce high RPM but very high no load current, this whilst fun is not good so check that first and let me know.

Knoxie
 
Hi mate,

connected one cell and hit full throttle, spike of 6 amps then a steady two amps to keep it there? while at full throttle it jumps back and forth between about 1.9a and 2.4a ?
have decided not to test tonight,its bitter outside and i need a beer :) don't want to tinker under the influence !!

cheers



D
 
Hi Mate

No that sounds fine to me 2.4A is right, good luck with the testing the lower temps will help with things esp keeping the controller nice and cold! I remember years ago on long rides back from Oxford when I used to ride a 50CC motorbike, I would sit with my feet on the engine! ha ha trying to keep em warm!

It is getting chilly now I suppose it has to, big coat time and scarf and gloves!

P
 
72v can definitely kill you. It's best to use the "one hand" technique when working with live wires. If you get a circuit across one hand, it will hurt and shock the crap out of you :shock: , but it won't stop your heart. The problem is when you get a circuit from one hand to the other hand and the current goes through your heart. From hand to foot is bad too.

I've had my share of zaps. I'm trying to kick the habbit.
 
Hi Richard,

yes thanks for the warning, i will take particular care when sorting out the battery cables - i think the bit that worries me most is stripping the cables as that's very difficult with one hand but i will take all possible precautions.
I didn't do anything except a no load test (thx paul) as it was bitterly cold and to be honest i needed a break after spending the weekend twatting around with the bike all day.
I will get on it saturday and do the charge and single cell tests knoxie outined and see how that goes, i'm thinking that it should be ok as i have ridden both cells on their own and pulled 35a from both backs respectively.
a while back i remember saying that one pack gave me more ah than the other and its possible i have a bad cell but i will do the test and note the voltages before charge,after charge,max ah obtained etc - i plan to just ride around the block in a clockwise direction for both pack tests and cycle them both a few times before putting up the results, hopefully on saturday if the bathroom and weather allow!!!
By the way knoxie how many cells are in my pack and what are the voltages of each cell charged?
once they've been cycled i think they will be ok to be honest - i remember that they both charged to around 41v previously so fingers crossed all will be well and i can get on and finish this bike finally.
Thanks for all the help guys, it's looking much better now :)


cheers all,


D
 
Hi M8

Shit its so late...snore...I have been online too long :lol: yes mate your packs have 10 x cells in each, each cell should top off at 4.2V therefore your fully charged reading on new packs should be 42V however it does take a few cycles to get them to rest at 42V.

Test each pack on their own and if they are matched you should not have any problems mate, ok I am off to bed, good luck with the bike, its so cold out there now, you need 1 x pack for the motor and the other for heated seat and grips! ha ha.

Later

P

PS lets see some new pictures and get a decent camera as well! your mobi pics are a bit blurry, prob all the fag smoke :)
 
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