DIY 10awg phase leads through axle in 9C hubmotor.

[TMaster]

Thanks, Yeah I don't know about that. My motors covers are flat compared to the golden motors and 9C's from E-bikekit or ebikes.ca
But my motor has the same Golden motor number stamping on the outside edge. The motor is from YXM. I just drilled the cooling holes so you can take a look at the pics, I posted on the X5 cooling thread. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9791&start=330

 

[Kingfish]

OK, I have succeeded where few have tread…
I finally managed to weasel into a 9C RH axel three Teflon-insulated 10-AWG Silver-plated stranded copper wire and 4-pair of 24-AWG stranded (Cat5E) wire

Proof:

Da big picture...

Purdy-lookin' Cat5E. The hole at the base was opened up.

Looks are deceiving; there is no heat shrink inside the axel: It's just plain wire with insulation. The axel has been bored larger.

This was a m@$%$%@ f&$#@##$% *&$##@ #^%%^ !#@%^ nightmare! :x I think I wasted enough wire to cable up the Large Hadron Collider. What a complete B!@#$% to do, and I have zero-desire to do it again. Nope. Gonna do something different for the next wheel.

The Cat5E replaces the five wires for Hall Effect sensor wires, plus two for Delta-Wye relays, and 1 spare in case there’s a short. There were a lot of shorts produced trying to pull these wires through. The trick I used was a LOT of swearing! OK, maybe that didn’t help, but it sure felt good. And I know a LOT of color metaphors from Navy cuss-fights and working down in the engine room.

I tried pushin’, I tried pullin’, I tried splicin’, solderin’, peelin’, honin’, borin’, widenin’, grindin’, flattenin’, squirtin’ and slatherin’. Pissin’ and moanin’ worked best. Yeah… grrr!

I used up more heat shrink than what’s on the rest of the bike! Sorry liveforphysics; (in my best Elmer Phudd) I twied and I twied but I just couldn’t get the heat-shrunk wire to pull through without it splitting. Leaving the Teflon on made it more slippery. The toughest part was the overall stiffness of the stranded wire; it was very difficult to work with.

El_Steak has a good concept in his organization; I figured that part out belatedly: The huge problem I consistently had was with the phase and/or wire-pairs getting mixed up and twisted inside the axel.

The last and final time:

• The Cat5E went in first with the cable sheathing intact. Then I pushed in one Teflon phase wire, followed partly with a second. About midway through that push I stopped and pulled the cable sheathing through the axel and off the Cat5 so that the 4-pairs were nicely organized on the bottom. Then I finished pushing the 2nd Teflon wire through.
• At no time did I try to pull the Teflon wires out of the other end of the axel; except for the Cat5 pairs, the other wires remained in the hub butted up at the end. Then I pushed the last Teflon wire in until it too butted up at the base of the hub.
• I used a boat-load of lubrication through the whole process; everything got buttered up with spray silicone and Teflon grease.
• Next I fished out each phase wire out of the pit with various implements until I could get the end pointing upwards, followed by more pushing ~ and that caused the wire to self-curl out of that hole (and repeated for the other two wires).
• I used the meter to identify each teflon wire, checked for shorts, and then put colored heat shrink on the leads.

The next time I do this I will redesign the hub covers and axels to accommodate front disc brakes and 20mm DH forks; The layout is done.

Fracken nightmare.
~KF grrr

 

[Hyena]

I quickly decided that 10ga wasn't worth the frustration, I had enough trouble getting 3 lengths of heatshrunk 12ga and 8 of the original gauge hall wires (halls+relay+temp sensor) back in there!

 

[TMaster]

Nice work!

The axel has been bored larger.

I think the stock size bore is about 0.28"-.29" inside, It looks like you really bored it out, I hope you don't twist the axle. The next time I do a motor, I will still use the 12AWG, but I plan on boring it just slighty at the opening to fit heatshrink inside the opening where you bend the wires comming out. The teflon coated wire is strong, I don't think anyone will ever have an issue scraping off the coating inside the axle. The PTFE coated wire has a spec of 200C which is 392F, I think you would burn your motor out from amperage long before you melt the teflon coated wire inside the axle. You might want to ask methods about that though

 

[Kingfish]

I hope you don't twist the axle

Agreed! I will never do another hub this way. In fact – this will be a test for a short time until I refine the hub covers (Voltage/Wattage will be kept to 55.5V and < 2kW).

During this process I stopped to consider at length adding a second albeit smaller bore from the other side just to accommodate the signal wires – but I kept coming back to “you’ll need to do this for the next hub” and I just didn’t want to compromise the axel more than I had to.

Having plenty of time to reflect and ponder my fate I concluded that the phase wires are closer to 12-AWG rather than the 10. For honing I would use between a 9/32nds or 19/64ths drill bit which matches TMaster’s exacting spec. There isn’t a precise metric-sized equivalent drill bit. (I used 5/16ths though I do not recommend it)

One thing I did observe early on about the assembly was that the original wires had an aluminum sleeve that was used to retain the wires tightly, and this was shoved into the hole. Honing would remove that short bit of aluminum material.

I tried flattening my wires but they ended up splitting; if a person had a rolling-press I think that it’s possible to make the wires oblong but not squarish. But really ~ I would never do this to a hub again. As much as I like Nine Continent, this is a design flaw in more ways than one.

I’ll finish this assembly and test out the Detal-Wye, but my next project will be the conversion to a new cover and axel. One fix to solve them all… 8)

Thanks for the support!
~ KF

 

[limey2]

i may be teaching granny to suck eggs but have you considered silicon wire ? very flexible.

 

[TMaster]

I used a foot of silicone wire spliced in on the ends going to the controller for flexability.
:wink: 12AWG silicone vs 12AWG PTFE

 

[amberwolf]

The catch with silicon-sheathed wire is it is much thicker sheathing than teflon-sheathed wire can be, so you get less actual conductor for the diameter, and so can't put as heavy a gauge thru.

 

[SpeedEBikes]

My 9C arrived with all the wiring trashed due to USPS insanity. So I was forced to rewire it. I used the original phase wires cut into thirds. I tossed the first third of each which was damaged and used the remaining two thirds for each phase doubled up. This gives me phase wires that extend outside the axles by a few inches, just enough for a drip loop before joining to a piece of 10 gauge for the run to the controller.

This was only moderately painful and should give close to the performance of running 12 gauge.

 

[El_Steak]

I just finished my second 9c rewiring. This one went much faster than the first one 8)

I'm also installing a "doctorbass-spec" thermometer in this motor and was wondering what would be the best place to install the thermistor in the motor. Common wisdom seems to indicate that it should be very close to the winding, but am I looking for trouble if I stick it right against it like you can see in the picture below? And how would I fix it in place? just a blob of high temp car silicone ?

 

[Hyena]

Right on the windings is fine, that's where I have mine and have had no problems. Mine is the flat tab style one but i actually jammed it between the windings slightly so it's not going anywhere.

 

[liveforphysics]

I used up more heat shrink than what’s on the rest of the bike! Sorry liveforphysics; (in my best Elmer Phudd) I twied and I twied but I just couldn’t get the heat-shrunk wire to pull through without it splitting. Leaving the Teflon on made it more slippery. The toughest part was the overall stiffness of the stranded wire; it was very difficult to work with.

I think you had some cheapy shrink if it was tearing that easily. I've encountered shrink that would tear when you looked at it funny. This shrink is tough enough you gotta dig through it with a knife to split it.

Congrats though! You've got 10awg silver plated wire in your axle now. That is the ultimate for a 9C running stock covers/bearings.

 

[John in CR]

In less than 2 weeks I'll have 2807 9c in hand that I'll put in service as a ventilated mid drive at high voltage and power. I did the stuffing maximum wire gauge through an axle thing 2 years ago and swore never again. After seeing the closeup of the windings on page 4, my question is what gauge do you guys think the actual windings are comparable to? I don't want my phase wires to be a bottleneck for current flow, but I also don't see any benefit in using anything larger gauge than the windings themselves for the foot or so to get from the windings to the exterior.

For the guys using 10ga, how did your new phase wires compare to the magnet wire coming from the windings? In the 2807 does that 7 turns consist of even 12ga worth of magnet wire?

John

 

[Metallover]

I just finished my second 9c rewiring. This one went much faster than the first one 8)

I'm also installing a "doctorbass-spec" thermometer in this motor and was wondering what would be the best place to install the thermistor in the motor. Common wisdom seems to indicate that it should be very close to the winding, but am I looking for trouble if I stick it right against it like you can see in the picture below? And how would I fix it in place? just a blob of high temp car silicone ?

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17958&hilit=monitor - A suggestion for your temperature sensor

How I mounted my sensor^^

STuffed in my axle is 10awg with probably 1/3 of the strands removed and shrink around that along with eight cat5 wires for the halls and temperature sensor.

 

[lifepo4ever]

what is the original size phase lead of the 2807 motor because i want to buy similar wire doubled like doctorbass is doing

 

[Doctorbass]

what is the original size phase lead of the 2807 motor because i want to buy similar wire doubled like doctorbass is doing

My doublled wires was to make Delta WYE mode on the winding.. but you can do the same to just double each original phase wieres..

It was the original 9C motro phase wire size... i think it's 16 or 14 gauge Please can someone could confirm??

Doc

 

[Kingfish]

Doc,
9C hub wires are 14 AWG. They appear to be 16 AWG in sight due to the thin PVC insulation.

~KF

 

[Doctorbass]

Doc,
9C hub wires are 14 AWG. They appear to be 16 AWG in sight due to the thin PVC insulation.

~KF

yes.. probably 14 gauge.

Btw.. the insulation is teflon not pvc ( according to crystalyte.. and i guess it<s the same for 9C)..

PCV melt at lower temp( 90-100 celsius) than teflon(260 celsius)

Doc

 

[Kingfish]

Btw.. the insulation is teflon not pvc ( according to crystalyte.. and i guess it<s the same for 9C)..

PCV melt at lower temp( 90-100 celsius) than teflon(260 celsius)

That makes sense to me. Thx Doc 8)

 

[lifepo4ever]

its not so easy to do with srhink its not enougth strong and now i have to find teflon wire , sometime i don't know why i wasting time to modify my ebike
there always something happening always bad luck and luke you said its take you 45 minute to pass the wire there ?no way ! i am stock there for about a week i even change the hall sensor wire for thiner one and also a tiny wire for the barbecue sensor , i use 6 wire method from doctorbass and all my wire are scrap now i even put tape on my long nose to not damage the wire ! and some KY !

if someone want to to do it I can say if you dont have lot of skill with tool don't try this ask somebody like maybe steveo to do the job for you .

 

[El_Steak]

I can send you some 12AWG teflon wire if you are stuck. Just PM me.

*EDIT* no more 12AWG left

 

[Dave Sloan]

Next thing I am going to read is somebody sticking three tubes thru the axle and filling them with mercury! I think it is just easier to increase the voltage by a few thousand.

 

[liveforphysics]

If you're going to send 1000w to the motor, it doesnt matter if you do it with 1000v at 1amp, or 50v at 20amps. The current in the phase wires will be identical.

Next thing I am going to read is somebody sticking three tubes thru the axle and filling them with mercury! I think it is just easier to increase the voltage by a few thousand.

 

[John in CR]

If you're going to send 1000w to the motor, it doesnt matter if you do it with 1000v at 1amp, or 50v at 20amps. The current in the phase wires will be identical.

Really? So the controller converts it to the same thing regardless of pack voltage. I thought I was reducing stress in my motor by almost doubling my voltage.

Also, any idea of the equivalent gauge of the windings in a 2807?

 

[lifepo4ever]

thanks elsteak