Doc's Watercooled Hub motor project ( 5403)

[keyne]

Looks like quite an elaborate system, but it should definitely work. Don't worry about the epoxy getting too hot or about using a super high pressure system - it won't get that hot and you won't have much trouble getting the heat out once it gets to the cooled area. My best tip would be to put as much effort as possible into improving the thermal path from the windings to the part of the stator you are actually cooling.

 

[Sk8ter-Dude]

Hey Doc and everyone....just wanted to suggest a cheaper alternative to dp epoxy that you use...black shoegoo is an incredible glue.... super strong and unbelievable shear strength..I build custom Skates... carbon fiber nylon etc..shoegoo is the only glue that has stood the test of time....and at or about 8 bucks a tube its a no brainier

only use the black shoegoo not the clear..... black contains carbon (for color)which helps with strength


Lawrence

 

[Doctorbass]

Hey Doc and everyone....just wanted to suggest a cheaper alternative to dp epoxy that you use...black shoegoo is an incredible glue.... super strong and unbelievable shear strength..I build custom Skates... carbon fiber nylon etc..shoegoo is the only glue that has stood the test of time....and at or about 8 bucks a tube its a no brainier

only use the black shoegoo not the clear..... black contains carbon (for color)which helps with strength


Lawrence

Thanks Lawrence for your suggestion, but i think you really dont know what the DP-420 is... it's not a common commercial epoxy, it's aerospace grade epoxy with 4500 psi shear strengh!!!!.. yes 4500.. and i have tested it myself , you can find the video on my youtube acount if you are not convinced :wink:

The product you talk is for repairing shoes :lol: and is more like a silicon than an epoxy... we are comparing apples and oranges!

Nothing but the dp-420 from 3M scotchweld !

Doc

 

[Trackman417]

One concern I have (my $.02)
How are you going to service anything that goes wrong with the liquid cooling if everything is sealed up with the glue? Are you going to pray everything goes right the first time?

 

[Sk8ter-Dude]

Hey Doc and everyone....just wanted to suggest a cheaper alternative to dp epoxy that you use...black shoegoo is an incredible glue.... super strong and unbelievable shear strength..I build custom Skates... carbon fiber nylon etc..shoegoo is the only glue that has stood the test of time....and at or about 8 bucks a tube its a no brainier

only use the black shoegoo not the clear..... black contains carbon (for color)which helps with strength


Lawrence

Thanks Lawrence for your suggestion, but i think you really dont know what the DP-420 is... it's not a common commercial epoxy, it's aerospace grade epoxy with 4500 psi shear strengh!!!!.. yes 4500.. and i have tested it myself , you can find the video on my youtube acount if you are not convinced :wink:

The product you talk is for repairing shoes :lol: and is more like a silicon than an epoxy... we are comparing apples and oranges!

Nothing but the dp-420 from 3M scotchweld !

Doc

no argument here..... but you have no idea what your talking about ....shoegoo is just a name!! get a clue ...this is the real deal..... a real hi-perf urethane glue undercover and for cheap i would bet my house that it will outperform your dp epoxy!!! especially peel strength and let go (stretch strength) impact strength which they do not disclose

in the real world spec numbers do not mean much to me...... use it(as i have) and test it this will tell the REAL story

I have a box full of the so called hi-perf epoxy all junk

so do not dismiss Shoegoo until you have a clue and use it

Looking forward to seeing more of your build

Lawrence

 

[Ypedal]

interesting ... i've been surfing the net for DP ... not too motivated to spend that much money when i can get shoe goo at canadian tire.

I've used the clear ( purple tube ) to patch rubber boots ( remains flexible, but never comes off pvc ), amazing stuff, never tried the black ( hard? ) ..

???
http://www.shoetreemarketplace.com/SHOE_GOO_BLACK_p/p9001.htm

All their stuff is flexible adhesive...
http://www.shoegoo.asia/lineup.htm

 

[ohzee]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CGUQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.biosafe-inc.com%2F_tds%2Fsg_r01_tds.pdf&ei=4hXNT7vuDann0QHexuyFAQ&usg=AFQjCNFcR8BogqhM4VSnOH12nhRL_Iwehw&sig2=GlGhsDRbiF33Azw2LPg1Zg

PROPERTIES OF CURED SHOE GOO®
Chemical resistance UV resistance Hardness
Dielectric strength
Tensile strength Elongation
Service temperature Paint-over time
Excellent to water, dilute acids and dilute bases
No; paint over for UV resistance
80 Shore A
400V/mil (ASTM D-149); this is the maximum voltage that can be applied to a given material without causing it to break down
3800 lb/in2 (ASTM D-412) 900% (ASTM D-412)
-40 to 150 °F (-40 to 66 °C) 24 hours

http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/1738/DP-420-pdf.php

DP 420 & Shoe Goo cured properties above.

P.S. Doc is a well respected ES Forum King who tries to help all.. Telling him to get a clue is counter productive and offending to myself.

 

[Sk8ter-Dude]

interesting ... i've been surfing the net for DP ... not too motivated to spend that much money when i can get shoe goo at canadian tire.

I've used the clear ( purple tube ) to patch rubber boots ( remains flexible, but never comes off pvc ), amazing stuff, never tried the black ( hard? ) ..

???
http://www.shoetreemarketplace.com/SHOE_GOO_BLACK_p/p9001.htm

All their stuff is flexible adhesive...
http://www.shoegoo.asia/lineup.htm

The Black is the better of the shoegoo....give it try you will not be disappointed!!

 

[Sk8ter-Dude]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CGUQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.biosafe-inc.com%2F_tds%2Fsg_r01_tds.pdf&ei=4hXNT7vuDann0QHexuyFAQ&usg=AFQjCNFcR8BogqhM4VSnOH12nhRL_Iwehw&sig2=GlGhsDRbiF33Azw2LPg1Zg

PROPERTIES OF CURED SHOE GOO®
Chemical resistance UV resistance Hardness
Dielectric strength
Tensile strength Elongation
Service temperature Paint-over time
Excellent to water, dilute acids and dilute bases
No; paint over for UV resistance
80 Shore A
400V/mil (ASTM D-149); this is the maximum voltage that can be applied to a given material without causing it to break down
3800 lb/in2 (ASTM D-412) 900% (ASTM D-412)
-40 to 150 °F (-40 to 66 °C) 24 hours

http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/1738/DP-420-pdf.php

DP 420 & Shoe Goo cured properties above.

P.S. Doc is a well respected ES Forum King who tries to help all.. Telling him to get a clue is counter productive and offending to myself.

no harm intended really....but when someone poo poos something without trying it well i have to correct them...people...... this is for the greater good of all of us ...

maybe i should keep to myself and not contribute what i know...

 

[Doctorbass]

I would recommand the DP420 for antthing that need REAL peel and shear strenght, rater than any cheap canadianbigbang shoes glue!!

The DP420 is rated 82 for the Aluminum, Bell Peel..

There is no spec on the that shoes glue.. the 420 is fully documented and used since decades!

http://solutions.3m.com.au/3MConten...5&assetType=MMM_Image&blobAttribute=ImageFile

No way that shoes glue can outperform the DP420 for our ebike needs !!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Again you are comparing apples with oranges..!

Ask someone here to glue their torque arms with that shoes glue... lol :lol: :x

Probably your glue is impressive, but by far... not in the same cathegory than the one i'm talking about!

now let go back to the original subject of the thread 8)

Doc

 

[Sk8ter-Dude]

I would recommand the DP420 for antthing that need REAL peel and shear strenght, rater than any cheap canadianbigbang shoes glue!!

The DP420 is rated 82 for the Aluminum, Bell Peel..

There is no spec on the that shoes glue.. the 420 is fully documented and used since decades!

http://solutions.3m.com.au/3MConten...5&assetType=MMM_Image&blobAttribute=ImageFile

No way that shoes glue can outperform the DP420 for our ebike needs !!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Again you are comparing apples with oranges..!

Ask someone here to glue their torque arms with that shoes glue... lol :lol: :x

Probably your glue is impressive, but by far... not in the same cathegory than the one i'm talking about!

now let go back to the original subject of the thread 8)

Doc

good luck... you seem to know everything...no need for a peon like myself to contribute something useful..

I just love internet forums carry on your internet bantering !!

Lawrence

 

[Doctorbass]

I would recommand the DP420 for antthing that need REAL peel and shear strenght, rater than any cheap canadianbigbang shoes glue!!

The DP420 is rated 82 for the Aluminum, Bell Peel..

There is no spec on the that shoes glue.. the 420 is fully documented and used since decades!

http://solutions.3m.com.au/3MConten...5&assetType=MMM_Image&blobAttribute=ImageFile

No way that shoes glue can outperform the DP420 for our ebike needs !!! :lol:
Again you are comparing apples with oranges..!

Ask someone here to glue their torque arms with that shoes glue... lol :lol: :x

Probably your glue is impressive, but by far... not in the same cathegory than the one i'm talking about!

now let go back to the original subject of the thread 8)

Doc

good luck... you seem to know everything...no need for a peon like myself to contribute something useful..

I just love internet forums carry on your internet bantering !!

Lawrence

Lawrence, that's great to bring your contribution and experiences as well, but the glue you are talking about is not a structural epoxy and is not made for the same purpose. I just dont want people think it could be a replacement for stuff like their torque arms wich require structural bond and ultra high shear strenght. if you want to talk bout your so amazing glue, please make your own thread and post tests just like i did for the DP420 to SHARE the REAL TESTED data. That's what i call a contribution. I dont know everything, but at least i know what i test and i can share that on the internet.

You are totally right, i dont really know your glue except by their specs posted few post earlier. But i know that what you called epoxy is not an epoxy .. i can reconize what is an epoxy, The adhesive are a part of my job at work :wink:

Doc

 

[Ratking]

I would recommand the DP420 for antthing that need REAL peel and shear strenght, rater than any cheap canadianbigbang shoes glue!!

The DP420 is rated 82 for the Aluminum, Bell Peel..

There is no spec on the that shoes glue.. the 420 is fully documented and used since decades!

http://solutions.3m.com.au/3MConten...5&assetType=MMM_Image&blobAttribute=ImageFile

No way that shoes glue can outperform the DP420 for our ebike needs !!! :lol:
Again you are comparing apples with oranges..!

Ask someone here to glue their torque arms with that shoes glue... lol :lol: :x

Probably your glue is impressive, but by far... not in the same cathegory than the one i'm talking about!

now let go back to the original subject of the thread 8)

Doc

good luck... you seem to know everything...no need for a peon like myself to contribute something useful..

I just love internet forums carry on your internet bantering !!

Lawrence

Lawrence, that's great to bring your contribution and experiences as well, but the glue you are talking about is not a structural epoxy and is not made for the same purpose. I just dont want people think it could be a replacement for stuff like their torque arms wich require structural bond and ultra high shear strenght. if you want to talk bout your so amazing glue, please make your own thread and post tests just like i did for the DP420 to SHARE the REAL TESTED data. That's what i call a contribution. I dont know everything, but at least i know what i test and i can share that on the internet.

You are totally right, i dont really know your glue except by their specs posted few post earlier. But i know that what you called epoxy is not an epoxy .. it's a polyurethan adhesive and i can reconize what is an epoxy, The adhesive are a part of my job at work :wink:

Doc

Thank you for handling this so well with a good trough-thought answer. Nothing beats constructive posts like this instead of bashing.
Impressive work as always, love to see what you can push in to those windings before they beg for mercy.

 

[Doctorbass]

Update 7 june 2012

ALMOST FINISHED!!

Not shown on these following pics but the axel and pipes are already installed.

Note that the green tape is only to protect the winding during all the manipulations of the stator during the process

Doc

 

[Xanda2260]

This is literally, the coolest thing I have ever seen! (well, ok maybe not literally, that would be liquid nitrogen, but you know what I mean...)

 

[Ariane]

Hey Doc,

Nice job look's really well very well done i'm impatient to ride with you this summer, my friend the vacation is comming rapidly and my big bike will be ready this week-end (I hope), take care, good day!
Black Arrow

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

NICE.

Even if it somehow totally fails, its a very novel concept and attempt.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

presque un'objet d'art

L'intelligence et civilite dans votre posts... c'est formidable

vous avez plein d'idees mais vous n'avez pas la pretention obstuer l'utilisation de bon idees d'une autre
avec tous les regards...c'est peut etre un peu heroic?

Been awhile on my french, but merci!

I do have one question. You are not going to use straight water are you? I understand little about fluid dynamics, but I fear that near the axle their are some pockets which may develop some eddies trapping a little heat. With all of the heat-sinking around, it is probably not a problem, but another poster pointed out the difficulties of dealing with all the extra energy involved in water phase transitions. My thoughts are that a little coolant mix would allow you to avoid any micro-eddy phase change pockets, use a little less pressure through the system, and put less stress on joints. I am guessing you have already thought of this, but Thanks, anyways. I hope you haven't already covered this, otherwise disregard.

 

[Doctorbass]

presque un'objet d'art

L'intelligence et civilite dans votre posts... c'est formidable

vous avez plein d'idees mais vous n'avez pas la pretention obstuer l'utilisation de bon idees d'une autre
avec tous les regards...c'est peut etre un peu heroic?

Been awhile on my french, but merci!

I do have one question. You are not going to use straight water are you? I understand little about fluid dynamics, but I fear that near the axle their are some pockets which may develop some eddies trapping a little heat. With all of the heat-sinking around, it is probably not a problem, but another poster pointed out the difficulties of dealing with all the extra energy involved in water phase transitions. My thoughts are that a little coolant mix would allow you to avoid any micro-eddy phase change pockets, use a little less pressure through the system, and put less stress on joints. I am guessing you have already thought of this, but Thanks, anyways. I hope you haven't already covered this, otherwise disregard.

Hello Sancho's Horse, Thanks you very much for the appreciations. It's have been always a pleasure for me to share idea and discovering to the E-S crowd. My rewards are exactly when peoples like you post their appreciations like you did.

Merci d'y porter attention, c'est très gentil de vorte part.
( Thanks to pay attention for that, it,s well appreciated !)

Yes i thought about these possible problems. I know that the cooling path is not optimal and that the flow might not be constant along the path due to the various change in cross sectionnal size and the restrictio it create. Yes i plan on using some 50/50 premix prestone due to all the advantages. it's what i've read that seem to be the best for this particular application.

The pump i bought is adjustable so i will be able to match teh right pressure to keep the liquid phase constant.

The most important problem remain that the pump i have is really sensitive to air, so i'll need to bleed the air perfectly to keep the flow optimum.


I am really confident that the extrated heat from the motor to the radiator will be alot better than simple air cooling on the motor. The air cooling i'm using is the one made thru a radiator so the air will be directly pointing on it and the effective surface is alot better.

I am working on completing everything this weekend ad hope to post results soon!

Working or not, i'll post results

Doc

 

[chvojka]

Hello, I am writing to you from far away, up in the Czech Republic so please excuse my English

I would like to ask Mr. doctorbass if you had to take the number of gears on the engine? because I have a Golden motor from the engine and the Magic Pie when using a 6-classical circles there have absolutely no place in the inlet and outlet pipes.
Or how you intend to solve it? you do not have any photos when folded? or some of your photo album?

 

[Stielz]

That is a truly amazing job you are doing there, Cant wait to see how it performs!

 

[liveforphysics]

Great job Doc! Nicely done!

 

[Doctorbass]

Update 14 june 2012


Doh!!.. I have a major problem with my calculation regarding the dimensions

I dont understand why at the moment but my stator winding is touching the inside wall of the side covers :x

I have calculated everything when i removed 5mm on each side of the motor rotor but... argh !!! :lol:

The option i have is to flatten the stator winding with a press . The stator version i got on the 5403 is not like the last 5300 serie with the stator winding already flatened.. it's like they forgto this step.. so i'll use that as an advantage to get the 2-3 missing mm on each side to not have the winding in contact with the side cover.

I just hope that the winding insulation will remain intact... :? .. ... that's why i worrie... so i'll measure the inductance and the resistance of it BEFORe and AFTER just in case.

I remember when i watched a youtube video of Justin visiting the 9C motor manufacture in China that i saw a chineese person using a very basix tube and hios hears to listen the shorted winding from teh rejected units to repair these. She was using what look like a tube that she use to hear the winding HF vibration of the shorted area while the winding is connected to wehat look like to be a high current frequency generator or so...

Also, the tubing from the stator cooling to the axel is not an easy job.... the little L shape dual tubes i made to cary the liquid by the axel slot is touching the bearing of the side cover too.. i'll have to grind the bearing mount on the side cover a little bit...


Now about this watercooling project :


Is it too complicated ... NO

Is it really complicated... YES

Does it really worth: I HOPE AS WELL !! :lol:

Doc

 

[hillzofvalp]

Cool. I'm looking to do this to my cromotor now. I will ask for more tips later down the road


Hahaha bleeding that is going to be a pita! My goodness!I guess you inject fluid you will hAve to rotate the wheel in just the right wAy

 

[hillzofvalp]

What does everyone think of using cpvc (~100C rated) to construct a chamber inside a 9c/cromotor? I would be cheap, light, and easy.. Only need to cut it down to correct length, then make a lid similar to your metal rings.

6-8" cpvc couplings range from $30-70. One can be cut down into multiple 1" heights to fit More than one hub motor and both sides...

I would assume the temperature rating is representing the extreme such that 100C liquid was in a pipe at high pressure for a longer period. If coolant was constantly flowing, do you see a possible failure of the plastic?