D's RC Drive Kona DC1

[Malcolm]

Hey, a bit of sunshine brings out all the part-timers Good to hear you're still alive Knoxie. I thought you had gone over to the dark side. Congratulations on becoming a Dad – you'll already have started work on a trike for him I guess...

Jozzer: Great idea. My vote's for July in Norfolk as well.

D: The bike's looking great – is it finished yet...

 

[mwkeefer]

D,

Looking good and congratulations on becoming a father! {we will miss you for the next 11 months or so}

-Mike

 

[deecanio]

 

[Malcolm]

You mean you didn't know? :lol:

 

[deecanio]

nope

lol, its knoxie that's the recent father Mike
Nearly finished Malc, very nearly, must crack on!!


D

 

[deecanio]

heh heh.. belt slippage was a minor invonvenience on Lifepo4, now it's becomming a real problem with lipo... breakage is inevitable !!!

You don't need much slip before this happens either YPedal MaN-->

^^first stage reduction belt...the teeth came clean off in a neat little strip


Deec...thats a neat looking work bench you have there mate, I see the Drill press there too
you nearly have as many tools as me when we seeing the first custom bike from the
deecanio Workshop :lol:

OH...and that gold chain you have Deec, thats a Kart chain is it not? Me likes
the look of it...

World Cup faaaark me im soooo over it already every freakin 5 minutes
theres something about it and it hasn't even started! Was way better
when Australia didn't have a side playing didn't hear half as much about it
Upside i guess is, i wont have any shortage of "programming" to put me to sleep,
~2 minutes of SOCCER is all it takes and i'm out like a light
Just hope i don't see any goals scored...HAHAHA as if that would happen in 2 minutes of a Soccer game
then i wont be subjected to grown "men" <--(use that loosely) dry humping each other

KiM

i really dont want to see thi happen to me i currently have the GT3 at a tension of the musical cord "c"

i bought the bench a few weeks ago, they sent one guy and no tail lift this was when i had pulled my shoulder too, most painful delivery i have ever recieved mate!!!
i got a bolt on no.6 vice to go with and a cheapie piller drill, to supplement i bought metric drills,taps, some punches and a scribe, took me back to being 17 as a apprentice technician.
Tbh Kim i was inspired by your craft at home, the ability to fab/mod is a godsend - i'd be waiting weeks to get anything done before but i can take care of a lot of jobs at home now, i dont have space for a workshop but ill add a dremel and some other do dahs as i go.
Aye matey the chain is 219 kart, cheap as off ebay too, i bought 2 for the the price i paid for one DID chain, when they arrived i could not tell the difference between them and the DID, thats 2 100 link (i think) joined - i only have a cheapie 219 link extractor too but it did a great job for me, i have changed a lot of links on that chain and thye are all still beautifully smooth.i'll dig out the link if you want any.

i heard on the radio the other day that Norway were so desperate to host the eurovision song contest that they gave up their privilage to televise, wait for it...... THE WORLD CUP!!!!
The world cup, THE tournament, One day you'll catch up with what the rest of world plays and join us in a celebration of culture, nationallity and football, as for those norweigians alas poor thord, i knew him well.

D

 

[knoxie]

Congrats on "Tyler" Paul, I guess you will be calling the next one "Jozzer"?
Can certainly lend you a handful of LiPo if yours don't arrive, I'm sitting on a small mountain of them..

Steve

Hi Steve

Ha ha jozzer!! well you never know deffo going to hop up one of those sit on little bikes for Tyler not till he is a little older though, hopefully my packs will be here in a few days but thanks for the offer I have clearance off her indoors so will be there, looking forward to it already, hopefully Miles can make it as well? any other takers? maybe put the call out, sound like Tarzan now :lol: hopefully Malc can make it down to, would be great to meet up see if we can break deecs bike again...ahem..

P

 

[Miles]

hopefully Miles can make it as well?

Definitely. I've put it in the diary.

 

[deecanio]

NO BREAKING THE BIKE!!!

i'll be there guys although im not sure it will be a jozzbikes day if we are in the paddock? would be cool tho and im up for whatever we are doing
i have an issue for you guys to ponder, when under tension the belt tends to wander outward, when i was putting the belt on for the first time the washer shoulder of the small pulley popped off
when i set the drive up with no or little tension it runs fairly true however when i put the tension on theres a small wander outward toward what would be my leg im guessing that the tension is bending the dual motor arm very slightly??? the motor to bottom bracket gap tells me its not quite straight also?
Anyway my question is: this "snap on" shoulder on the little pulley, is it supposed to be like that? i can understand it being a sign of misalligned belt ?? i popped it back on and it stayed there weirdly, the thing is with it on it has enough strength to hold the belt in check however i wouldnt want to trust it under power - can i put a couple of bolts into the pulley to stop the shoulder coming off??? i realise i must be slight out of tru but if the snap on shoulder can hold it without popping im guessing it would be ok, maybe a belt newer than usual??? what do you guys think?
i made good progress with an idler for the 219 chain on the upside and a couple more hours should see it licked
now about this pulley issue???.......

 

[Ypedal]

In a low tech red neck type of way i'd ream out the inside of a washer to clear the shaft/set screw part and JB weld that washwer on there ( Outside diameter would have to be similar size to the previous one.. or if you still have that ring and it's in usable shape.. use that..

Uhhh... i hope someone else has a better idea.. :lol:

 

[Miles]

D,

Both pulleys need to be accurately aligned and as rigid as possible. Try running the belt the other way around, to see if it tracks better. Best to get it tracking right and not depend on running it against the flanges.

 

[Malcolm]

For a temporary fix can you shim the motor mounting to correct the misalignment? I can't see the mounting points clearly, but one way would be to insert one or more layers of aluminium foil between the motor face and the mounting arm, to one side of the shaft. It'll take a bit of trial and error to get the thickness right and position it correctly, but it will also give you a reasonable measurement of the misalignment so that you can figure out a more permanent solution.

 

[recumpence]

It may, indeed, be the motor plate flexing under tension load. I have never run a belt to the far motor position before.

You can shim the motor a touch to compensate. Also, yes, you can tap a few small holes to hole the flange on. But, as Miles said, best to get the alignment correct rather than rely on the flange too much.

Matt

 

[Miles]

See T47 and T53 in the attached doc, D.

 

[liveforphysics]

Guides are the wrong aproach to a solution. You gotta get the shafts parallel to each other, and keep them parallel to each other under load, or a belt will just chomp away at the edges against the guides until it starts to fray, and then spirals downhill quickly.

On the bright side, if you get things rigidly parallel, a belt stays centered in place extremely well. Think of the timing belt on a car.

 

[deecanio]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the info, i'll persue getting it to run straight rather than rely on the flange to hold things in check, it's flex in my opinion so i will try to shim the motor to compensate.
Angular misallignment i believe thx Miles.
back at work now so no progress for a good few days however should be back on it sunday, hopefully i can get the belt sorted then finish the tensioner.
Next week im at work all week but the benefit is i get the whole of the next week offf!!!! world cup and riding are the order of the week!!!
Thx again, i knew i should ask rather than persue my own solution which was along Y's lines, red necks together Y


D

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Matt,

It may, indeed, be the motor plate flexing under tension load. I have never run a belt to the far motor position before.

You can shim the motor a touch to compensate.
Matt

Why will mounting the motor on the far position cause more flex? If it is the motor plate flexing would it be possible (and easier) to put a plate between the motor plate and the drive to support the motor plate (a 1/8" steel plate might do it?) and move the pulley out to compensate?

D: This Belt Length Calculator is more complete than the one at sdp-si:
http://www.maxtorque.com/calctool/centertocenterstartx.asp

Anyway I was playing with it and got the results below. According to that Calculator if you have 0.7 inch more length you could use a 535mm belt and get one more belt tooth meshing which would be about 9% stronger. In case its necessary you could also get two more teeth meshing with 28t/56t sprockets and .24" more length:

			Meshing Teeth	 Belt Length 	Shaft Center to Center Distance 
(25t/50t)	11   			500 mm  		 6.10"     
(25t/50t)	12   			535 mm			6.80" 
(28t/56t)	13   			535 mm			6.34"

I think your current belt and sprockets will handle the 3220 just fine. I'm a little concerned that the suspension loads might be a problem.

 

[deecanio]

Hi Mitch,

mounting to the furthest position causes more flex as the distance between the motor pulley and reduction pulley is double? a simple case of double the length of a piece of metal and it will have more flex no?
I dont have the option to stiffen the plate as clearences are minimal with the swingarm, any plate would make the dimension wider, besides its out by a minimal ammount, i'm hoping to straighten it out by shimming the motor slightly to compensate.
Thanks for the reassurances, i think the 3220 and belt will get along just fine, im actually hoping that they'll all play along just fine with the sram too - even though kim gave his a kicking the bikes and riding positions are very different, Kims cruiser is long and his ass is right over the rear, mine is more central and im always assisting where poss too, Gary's builds tell me mine will be just fine, also im 140lbs wet, should be ok.


D

 

[MitchJi]

Hi D,

Hi Mitch,

mounting to the furthest position causes more flex as the distance between the motor pulley and reduction pulley is double? a simple case of double the length of a piece of metal and it will have more flex no?
I dont have the option to stiffen the plate as clearences are minimal with the swingarm, any plate would make the dimension wider, besides its out by a minimal amount, i'm hoping to straighten it out by shimming the motor slightly to compensate.

D

Shimming sounds like a tedious process. I hope adjusting the belt tension doesn't change the flex.

Do you think the flex is in the drive mount plate and not the motor plate? If so there should be room to beef it up the drive (or even easier ask Matt to repair it under warranty ) .

When you have a chance would you mind posting the minimum and maximum shaft center to center distances?

 

[deecanio]

hehehe warranty
i'll measure up when i get chance, but i really think a shim of the motor will see the issue dissapear, i wont be looking at the bike again for a while as im working my ass off next week in exchange for a week off after that i should be riding VERY soon after next week, all problems fixed that is
Shimming shouldnt be too bad, four screws hold my motor and they are in a vertical line so the bottom two screws adjusted should be fine, dont forget the belt wand is with a lot of tension, ive set up tight and wouldnt have it any tighter so hopefully if i can fix it in this position i'll be golden, tbh im more worried about getting enough out of the skate wheel tensioner to take up the slack, at the mo i have the 11t drive pulley ( all my tapered shafts have 11 not 12t) and to compensate a little i havent used the 92t extron but stuck with the 80t, i have a fair amount of slack to take up before compression but i may put the 92t on and hope the chain is tighter under no load, at the minute i have to take up at least half inch to get tension at standstill but its not quite enough to be able to take another link out unfortunately.
Anyway a bit more twatting around and i should be good for a test ride, i'll do my usual and go pedal only for first ride with full setup and just test out the suspension first, then i'll wire her up

D

 

[boostjuice]

.....im actually hoping that they'll all play along just fine with the sram too - even though kim gave his a kicking the bikes and riding positions are very different, Kims cruiser is long and his ass is right over the rear, mine is more central and im always assisting where poss too, Gary's builds tell me mine will be just fine, also im 140lbs wet, should be ok.

D

Don't forget, Not all internally geared hubs are built the same or have the same torque ratings/failure points. Kim used a Sturmey Archer extra-wide which failed, Gary has used Both Nexus3 and SA3 speeds that haven't. No-one -that i am aware of - has yet put multi-Kw power through the SRAM Dual drive hub. The fact that Burtie runs them with 1200W cyclone systems, and Miles runs ~1kw through his means they may well be built stronger than the others, and indeed hold up to your 3220.... SRAM Dual-drives cost a pretty penny more than the other standard (cassette spline free) 3SPD hubs. Who knows, maybe for the extra dough you are getting better quality steel gears that are better hardened.... at least LFP's photos/dissection of his SRAM DD gearset looked and sounded promising...

 

[recumpence]

When you double the length of a piece of metal, it is easier to flex. The motor plate is perfectly flat. The machining process assures that. But, the belt tension could, indeed, flex that plate if it is tight enough.

It may only require a super thin shim. Should not be that difficult.

Matt

 

[Timma2500]

This could help with the motor plate flex. Two carbon fibre strips totalling say 3-5mm thickness each, running along the top and bottom of the motor plate.
Keep them flush on the motor edge and try to keep them as wide as possible along the other main edge, cut and filed down just enough to clear the pulley, belts and any other obstructions.

Use atleast one M4 bolt at each end and one in the middle or preferably two in the middle with all 3 or 4 equally spaced.
You could drill the motor plate with your drill press and get an M4 tap from a hardware store.

If you mounted them without the motor on the plate (plate perfectly flat w/ no belt tension) using wide washers to distribute the bolt torque on the carbon strips, it should stiffen the plate up in theory, carbon from what i've found is very stiff along the thin plane (if thats the right explanation)... If i have big enough pieces of c.f. in the pile, i'm happy to cut some out with measurements from yourself and send them over pre-drilled as a template for you to drill the motor plate. I'll check when i get home tonight if you like.

Just a thought

 

[deecanio]

Cheers guys,

i think i'll be ok paul but many thanks for the offer, lets see what happens next time i get a couple of hours to try the shim, i may come back to you if im unsuccessful tho :lol:
Yes boostjuice, agreed, i've bought the sram now so i'll give it a shot in the name of es experimentation - a couple more weeks and we will see, its a little annoying that i didn't see that the the sram has an 8mm shaft, what the hell bike has 8mm dropouts anyway? they give you a couple of washers (have pics somewhere) that have a "hook" on them but they are shite, i wouldn't use them if i was only pedaling let alone putting some power through, really poor although im confident i can make some solid torque arms to run it, again time being the enemy, besides once i put the sram on my pedal gearing will be tied with motor gearing although at least with the dual freewheels this should not be too much of an issue im hoping.
All i need to do is get through to next Sunday and i'll have a good week to get it finished!!

D

 

[dbaker]

8mm axle?? Is that for a skewer style axle that is really a larger tubular axle inside the hub?

I have Nexus and SA 3 speed hubs and have decided I won't use them in a hub location for exactly those reasons. Not strong enough for off road or high speed on road use. Fitting the Nexus in 135 or 150 mm wide downhill bike dropouts did not inspire my confidence the end result would be robust enough. To use them I will want a jackshaft style build.