E-board - Why everybody uses 6s on 10/12s motors ?

[petzi427]

Hi everybody.
First of all thanks for this website. It has been very usefull to me to plan my future e-longboard.

Before ordering all the things, I need you to answer a question (I didnt- find the answer on the forum)

A lot of people seem to use a motor like the Turnigys SK3 63mm series with a 6s battery which delivers 22 volts... I read in the motor caracteristics that this kind of motors accept 44 volts and I read also that it is always better to give to the motor what he is made for: 44 VOLTS (or 12s). So why not use a 12s batteries ??? (2x 6s in serie).

Thanks everybpdy for the answers. I live in a place with many hills so I need a lot of torque for my e-longboard. I was planning to take a very low kv (149 or 192) and use a battery that would give the max power of the motor - around 2200watts. I imagine that all the people that uses 6s on SK3 63 mm series will have approx only the half of the power... Am I wrong ?

 

[onloop]

The main reasons for using 6s batteries is:
1. They are readily available assembled from hobby store.
2. 6s batteries are affordable.
3. Chargers for 6s battery are readily available.
4. Chargers for 6s battery are cheap.
5. The ESC that are commonly available at hobby stores support max 6S batteries.
6. The appropriate gearing reduction using 6s batteries on the commonly available KV motors from hobby stores is easily achievable using readily available 5mm pitch pulleys & belts which are rated to handle the load of an eboard....


In saying all of that... i believe that using higher voltage is probably the best option & more effecient. However it requires custom made batteries / chargers / & or BMS. / with high voltage ESC.... so it's more complex & expensive.

So yes.. more voltage = more watts / power... but you need to be able to utilize the power and convert it into mechanical torque to move a mass at a useable speed...

It also needs to be user friendly. Easy to charge etc.

Hope that helps.

 

[killisch]

Decent ESC's above 6s start costing a fair bit more and don't seem to have the same features as the car esc's.
Although i have yet to test them, Favorite will flash their 12s ESC with their car firmware and they are fairly cheap.

 

[torqueboards]

Yup, 6S is cheap and readily available off the shelf.

More and more though people will be switching over to 8S/10S/12S soon I think.

 

[beto_pty]

yup ..agree with torque..
as soon as vedders esc comes into play many of the rules will change but mainly for higher end/power users..

However for some one looking to build a cheap esc.. the hk150/ntm50/6s 5000mah alternative will probably continue as the starting/first board standard.. the hk150 ntm 270kv 5060 combo is hard to beat on price as well.. they are a pretty rock solid , and other than some glitches on the hk they run pretty well together.

Vedders esc will probably cost twice as much it is a totally different more powerful/programable system... and to take advantage of it's 12s capacity (and stay under say a sane 40 kph) a 149-168 kv (or thereabots) motor must be used.. These cost twice what a ntm5060 does..

 

[petzi427]

:wink: Thank you all for your answers.

So the ESC is the only problem... Does a CAR ESC 12s exist on the market ? Even if it is expensive I would buy one to use maximum power of the motor...

And if not, is it possible to connect the motor to the battery in another way/manner (without a radiocontrolled ESC, I mean, with a kind of "electrical throttle" I dont need my remote to be wireless.

One last question, if I plug 2 x 6s together in "series", the result will be a 12s with same Ah, right ? Thaaaaanks!

 

[torqueboards]

:wink: Thank you all for your answers.

So the ESC is the only problem... Does a CAR ESC 12s exist on the market ? Even if it is expensive I would buy one to use maximum power of the motor...

YES.

And if not, is it possible to connect the motor to the battery in another way/manner (without a radiocontrolled ESC, I mean, with a kind of "electrical throttle" I dont need my remote to be wireless.

One last question, if I plug 2 x 6s together in "series", the result will be a 12s with same Ah, right ? Thaaaaanks!

YES.

 

[beto_pty]

Even if it is expensive I would buy one to use maximum power of the motor...
:

You do understand to use the full power of the motor you must go about 70 kph?

 

[torqueboards]

Even if it is expensive I would buy one to use maximum power of the motor...

You do understand to use the full power of the motor you must go about 70 kph?

I don't think everyone knows that lol. Huminna wants to pull 2000 watts consistently.

 

[beto_pty]

...

Even if it is expensive I would buy one to use maximum power of the motor...

You do understand to use the full power of the motor you must go about 70 kph?

I don't think everyone knows that lol. Huminna wants to pull 2000 watts consistently.

...To stay under a safe 30 kph and pull a constant 2000 watts you can
...get some infaltable tires and inflate them to 3-5 psi
...beter yet get some square tires...
...gain 350 lbs
...put a magnet under the board and ride vertically on metal structires...
...pull a bank safe behind you
and my loudest alternative ... install 2000 watt speakers on the board

 

[saming]

on the other note i have a 12s esc and getting to about 32 mph is kinda crazy i though it would be sweet to get something go to that fast but i have to baby my throttle to not fly off.
Pro
Awesome fast
Sweet torque
Con
rapid acceleration
fast battery drain
Unpractical to go faster than 20 mph in street travel side walk also

I too was called silly to go as fast as you can. but after you have the power too its a waste of monies when cosmetics or larger battery capacity is much better in the long run. i have small wheels 73mm and 193 kv with 15 32 gearing. with high timing i get about 34mph which is stupid fast when i don't have breaks on it. dont waste your monies unless you got alot of it to throw for unnecessary speed to show off with lol.

 

[petzi427]

Even if it is expensive I would buy one to use maximum power of the motor...
:

You do understand to use the full power of the motor you must go about 70 kph?

I want power, I dont want speed. I live in a city made of big hills and want to climb a big slope at 25-30 km/h... that's it. All the videos I saw on the web about e-longboards climbing slopes didn't convince me at all. If you have one videolink with real power, please let me know.

I juts finished to build my own board (2 picts). I can wait to make it electrical. (I will use bigger wheels and probably 2x6S motors instead of a 12S)

 

[okp]

dual diagonal motors and you can climb and accelerate up hills easily at 30km/h.

 

[torqueboards]

@petzi427 - My main commuter is a dual 5055 SK3 280KV setup. On 6S I can pretty much climb all hills the only difference with a 6S setup I'm limited to about 12-14mph up steep hills. On 8S it travels a lot faster at about 15-16mph uphill. 10S I can easily hit 20mph up hills.

I'd say about 10% of the most steepest hills after 2 or 3 of them will warm up the motors pretty hot. If you plan on climbing these hills - dual 63mm works the best. This is all in San Francisco.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

Even if it is expensive I would buy one to use maximum power of the motor...

You do understand to use the full power of the motor you must go about 70 kph?

I don't think everyone knows that lol. Huminna wants to pull 2000 watts consistently.

Where'd I say that? I'd been wondering how many watts people get up to and its seeming 1000 will get about 25mph on flats.

As to why people use 6s escs with 12s capable motors...I'd been wondering what the limitations of the motor voltage limitations are and heard from two people that motors are intended for a specific voltage more so than the range of voltages they are given at Hobbyking (you see a range given there and presented more as a limit). People on here say there possibly isn't a difference between 12s and 6s motors. The possible differences could be the laquer on the windings' ability to take heat and not burn off or keep from shorting due to the volts ability to jump the insulation and (arc?). And also the bearings might not be rated for the high rpm that 12s could bring. From what I hear

 

[torqueboards]

If my battery can produce 2000 watts continuously comfortably does the motor size determine the amp draw at all or is it all decided by the esc?

As to why people use 6s escs with 12s capable motors...I'd been wondering what the limitations of the motor voltage limitations are and heard from two people that motors are intended for a specific voltage more so than the range of voltages they are given at Hobbyking (you see a range given there and presented more as a limit). People on here say there possibly isn't a difference between 12s and 6s motors. The possible differences could be the laquer on the windings' ability to take heat and not burn off or keep from shorting due to the volts ability to jump the insulation and (arc?). And also the bearings might not be rated for the high rpm that 12s could bring. From what I hear

I use 6S ESCs with 12S capable (63mm) motors for a higher torque (lower kv) as well as able to disperse heat and/or not get hot as fast as a smaller 50mm motor.

From what I've read and heard from others is the fact that a 5065 500-600kv 12S rated motor have the same thickness for windings as well as the same weight as a regular 5065 280kv 8S rated motor. For this reason, supposedly the 8S rated motor is actually capable of 12S.

I've also heard from my own suppliers that the rated voltage 8S for this example here is what they have tested it at and what it is expected to work with.

I've asked if I can use a 10S/12S voltage and they mention to me that I can but they haven't tested it. They've mentioned to test it myself.

We want 10S/12S to maximize the amount of torque we get and still reach a decent top speed 25mph up hill if you wanted.

At 6S, you have to sacrifice torque or top speed as you lack voltage. You also add weight and decrease mileage unless you put on a bigger pack. In the end, it's what you prefer to ride and/or want to sacrifice. If we could change gears like on a bike then we wouldn't need to sacrifice anything. But it isn't yet possible and/or not possible cheaply.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

If my battery can produce 2000 watts continuously comfortably does the motor size determine the amp draw at all or is it all decided by the esc?

As to why people use 6s escs with 12s capable motors...I'd been wondering what the limitations of the motor voltage limitations are and heard from two people that motors are intended for a specific voltage more so than the range of voltages they are given at Hobbyking (you see a range given there and presented more as a limit). People on here say there possibly isn't a difference between 12s and 6s motors. The possible differences could be the laquer on the windings' ability to take heat and not burn off or keep from shorting due to the volts ability to jump the insulation and (arc?). And also the bearings might not be rated for the high rpm that 12s could bring. From what I hear

I use 6S ESCs with 12S capable (63mm) motors for a higher torque (lower kv) as well as able to disperse heat and/or not get hot as fast as a smaller 50mm motor.

From what I've read and heard from others is the fact that a 5065 500-600kv 12S rated motor have the same thickness for windings as well as the same weight as a regular 5065 280kv 8S rated motor. For this reason, supposedly the 8S rated motor is actually capable of 12S.

I've also heard from my own suppliers that the rated voltage 8S for this example here is what they have tested it at and what it is expected to work with.

I've asked if I can use a 10S/12S voltage and they mention to me that I can but they haven't tested it. They've mentioned to test it myself.

We want 10S/12S to maximize the amount of torque we get and still reach a decent top speed 25mph up hill if you wanted.

At 6S, you have to sacrifice torque or top speed as you lack voltage. You also add weight and decrease mileage unless you put on a bigger pack. In the end, it's what you prefer to ride and/or want to sacrifice. If we could change gears like on a bike then we wouldn't need to sacrifice anything. But it isn't yet possible and/or not possible cheaply.

When I said my batteries can get to 2000watts (probably 3000 actually) (ah x c rating x volts i think) I wasn't looking to get all that to the motor but wondering what are the limiters in a system. I've read people on here thinking they can use a bigger motor to get more power.

Torque when you say 6s adds weight and decreases mileage unless you put on another pack...can't you just ease off the throttle? I thought amp hours were amp hours regardless and you can use them less efficiently and get less distance by going fast or you can ride at some consistent speed that's less and with less air resistance and get more distance...regardless of if they're formed into a 12s or 6s pack. You might get a bit more efficiency with 12s since less heat but otherwise I'd have thought itd be the same as far as possible distance

 

[torqueboards]

When I said my batteries can get to 2000watts (probably 3000 actually) (ah x c rating x volts i think) I wasn't looking to get all that to the motor but wondering what are the limiters in a system. I've read people on here thinking they can use a bigger motor to get more power.

Torque when you say 6s adds weight and decreases mileage unless you put on another pack...can't you just ease off the throttle? I thought amp hours were amp hours regardless and you can use them less efficiently and get less distance by going fast or you can ride at some consistent speed that's less and with less air resistance and get more distance...regardless of if they're formed into a 12s or 6s pack. You might get a bit more efficiency with 12s since less heat but otherwise I'd have thought itd be the same as far as possible distance

Gotcha. 12S adds weight. It's about double the amount of cells. But yeah, will have to test to see run time.

 

[made_in_the_alps_legacy]

If we could change gears like on a bike then we wouldn't need to sacrifice anything.

I was crossing my fingers to see this argument showing up in this topic, I think 6s is more than enought for the reduction ratio that can be achieved on e-board
going 12s requires even lower kV motors (less cheap) and even higher reduction ratio

I thought amp hours were amp hours regardless and you can use them less efficiently and get less distance by going fast ...
regardless of if they're formed into a 12s or 6s pack.

It's more the [Wh] which actually matter,
you could design around 6s and have the same [Wh] as on a 12s setup, the 12s set up will just draw half of the current ( soo half [Ah]) for the same [Wh]
...or: have the same [Wh] from a 12s pack which would have half the [Ah] of the 6s pack

ex. let's say :
riding 1h at 35kph requires 500W x 1h = 500Wh
500W/6s = 20A, so a 6s 20Ah should get you there
500W/12s = 10A, so a 12s 10Ah should get you there too

(of course, this is assuming the reduction on electrical losses from getting the same power with less current (due to higher voltage) are not that significant)

 

[torqueboards]

6S is great overall. It's not bad at all for commuting. Occasionally, I like a little more throttle and 8S/10S is more then adequate.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

O yea Wh not Ah. Multiplied with the voltage. Thanks

12s sounds like with enough amps it could produce huge power comfortably. 100 amps x 48 (12s) = 4800watts. Put 12s hobby esc on a bike maybe...even less rolling resistance than a board andwould give the room for a battery size that would make it worth it. That type of power seems wasted without handlebars or something for more control

Maybe hook up a little CVT transmition like comes on a scooter. 6 or so horsepower is more than most 50cc scooter motors produce.