First Build - 530x on 48v - Need Help w/ Frame Choice

[rechargeourfuture]

I've spent countless hours taking in as much information as I can in hopes that this first thread would be a successful one. I owe everyone on here a big thank you for contributing priceless information. Gary, Fetcher, Methods, Doc, Luke, and the list goes on....

Any useful education I have for EV is due to 10years in the R/C hobby and 5years in the "darkside" of ICE. Unfortunately I have very little technical or mechanical experience with bicycles. Any help this forum can provide is greatly appreciated.

Here is where I am at so far with component selection:
Crystalyte 530x
Methods 100v/100a programmable controller
12s3p Lipo (48v/15ah) - Turnigy
Gary's v4.0 BMS (almost here!)
Meanwell s-350-48
and a Cycle Analyst of course..

I am trying to buy components that won't limit me in the future. I know I'll end up going with 24s lipo eventually so I'm trying to hit the "middle of the road" on 48v in regards to motor choice, so haven't decided on which 5series motor to go with yet. I am pretty sure i'll be using a 26" wheel, and I am hoping for around 30mph top speed (on 48v).

One topic I am not too comfortable with is regenerative braking, with respect to the battery. I know most say that it shouldn't be done until the SOC is below 80%? I know practical use is limited to braking, not so much for actually charging the battery. But since I will most likely be doing a rear wheel hub I don't know if it is even worth the trouble, or if resistive regen is either. If anyone has some experience with this please let me know.

As far as bike choice goes I am clueless. If I use any terms incorrectly or make a plain fool of myself please correct me!
I have a coworker that was fairly involved in bike repair years ago and he has 3 frames sitting around. Two of them are steel hardtails, and one an aluminum full suspension. I was more interested in a full suspension setup for comfort.
I've attached pictures of this Gary Fisher frame for opinions. The rear dropouts are aluminum designed for the 'quick release' style axle, I believe. I know the 5series motors produce quite a bit of torque (at least 50lbs worth according to ebikes calc) so I was skeptical if this was even an option at all? My biggest concern here is safety obviously. Torque arms will be used for sure but will it be enough?

All help and opinions are welcomed and appreciated. I hope to have this bike ready to go before spring arrives!

 

[dogman dan]

Using the GF frame is doable for sure. Most who run a powerfull motor on aluminum rear dropouts have fabricated custom made torque plates to keep the wheel on the bike. Often this was an issue of fit, so some of the newer designs of torque arms may work now. Originaly torque arms were mostly designed only to fit front forks.

But the issue that may make you want to go to the steel hardtail is where to carry the battery. You need a lot to power an x5 for a ride of any real length, so having a big frame triangle to stash the batteries is nice, and helps handling too. I have to agree, though, a nice rear shock is a joy for the back and the ass.

 

[rechargeourfuture]

That has been an issue in my head from the start. Where to put the battery. I'd love to be able to tuck it behind the seat for the best possible handling so I can keep rear suspension. It would also be in a compact and common storage space (thinking small toolbox). On the other hand putting it in the triangle would mean a little more custom work for the look I'd be going for. Always a trade off I suppose.

With at least 10ah (usable) on hand, and pedaling from a start, should I be able to get about 15mi on a charge?

Glad to hear your confident in the aluminum dropouts. I have seen such "strange" devices as wrenches used for torque arms...I am hoping to find something similar. There's a good 10mm offset from the face of the dropout to the tube that will have to be factored in.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Here's an example of chewed and "rounded out" aluminum rear drop-out, and one example of a custom steel torque arm:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11570

 

[Drunkskunk]

10Ah of Lithium should get you 15 miles on 48volts if you keep the controller limited to 20 amps. a 530X motor can choke down amps at an alarming rate if you let it.

Those dropouts look strong enough not to brake. However, you could still round them out and spin an axle with a big motor like that. Although there are some universile torque arms, wrenches work too. Of course, they don't have to be left liiking like wrenches. here's mine:

That frame looks good, although mounting a battery on that will be a challenge. 25lbs of motor and another 15lbs of battery all behind the seats will be tail heavy. You might consider the hardtail frames and mount some balloon tires instead.

 

[rechargeourfuture]

I'll have to look into ampedbikes and others for some torque arms. After some searching for Docs way of doing things I found this thread.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13277&p=197331&hilit=torque+arm#p197331

If I can convince my buddy to cut of a few of those out that would be great!

 

[chrisvw]

I have a 5303 on 26" wheels at 48V using an 8ah LiFePo4 (I can never spell the battery chemistry). I opted for a front mount, but you should certainly go with your preference. I virtually always pedal (I bike combined ebike/regular ~4000 mi/yr) and figure at least 30 miles on a charge. My roundtrip commute is 22 miles and I don't charge at work. I chose the front mount for weight distribution - you'll get more even tire wear and if you use a steel front fork, you can use the rear suspension where you really want the cushion. (Mine is a hardtail and I wish I had a suspension). The 53XX axle usually requires you to remove a bit of material from the dropout making your aluminum dropouts even more susceptible to problems. I would not put it on the GF frame unless you've beefed things up. I'd say a couple torque arms are the bare minimum.

I find I most often cruise between 20 and 25mph. You can do 30 on this setup, but your range will be FAR less. I like the 5303 for the extra power and the kicks you can get when you want to go fast. I particularly enjoy passing the lycra college riders on the local hills! It takes them a minute to figure out how a 50-something guy in a commuter bike is blowing by them.

 

[rechargeourfuture]

Thanks for the advice Chris. Besides the all aluminum construction are there any other particular points on a GF you have found to be a weak spot? I've been looking into other frames trying to find "the one" that will balance strength, comfort, and stealth. One of the major reasons I want a rear hub is stealth. We'll see how this all pans out. Sounds like your having a lot of fun with the 5303! You might have just helped me make up my mind. That will give me the top speed I want and a "little" less torque on the dropouts. My daily commute is 4 miles so range isn't a factor at the moment.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a fairly cheap strong frame? I am very unfamiliar with whats common.

Thanks

 

[dogman dan]

The only way a 530x is stealth is when you hide it behind great big panniers. It's huge! Same thing applies to the 9 continent motors.

I'm amazed at the range chris gets with his 5303. He clearly pedals a lot, and has good throttle controll. With my 24" wheel 5304 I can blow 8 ah in 4 miles easy. 8 miles is my record distance. It was a dirt bike, so of course the range is less flinging the earth into the sky. But .5 ah per mile to 1 ah per mile is the usual average for x5's.

You might want to consider a BMC 600 watt rear hub motor if stealth is a consideration. It won't be as fast as an x5, but it will dissapear behind the gears on a rear wheel, and go further on the same battery while still having great tourqe. An x5 with 35 amp controller will require at least 30 ah of pingbattery, or some high discharge rate batteries like the headways. The bmc would be fine on 48v 15 ah of pingbattery.

Carrying 36v 20 ah or 48v 15 ah on the rear rack of a FS bike is no problem. Both sizes of the pingbattery fit nicely in my metal toolboxes. As you can see, with a FS bike, even panniers don't cover the hub of the wheel since the rack needs to be high for suspension travel. That's a 9c motor on the front, so you see how big a similar size x5 motor will be. I put a reinforcing broomstick inside the seatpost, and braced the rack with electric conduit for the loads I carry in the panniers.

 

[spinningmagnets]

rechargeourfuture, I am collecting the components for a bike that may be an option for you. I recently acquired a used Downhill (DH) MTB with fat 26" tires and a front disc brake. Its only a hardtail front-suspension frame, but I intend to add the rear suspension arm from another bike to make it a full-suspension longtail bike.

Full saddlebags (panniers) will be able to hide the rear hub completely, and still be completely clear of my pedaling feet (My heel passes in a pedal-circle that touches the rear axle). I'll also have frame-room for several non-hub motor and jackshaft mounting options when experimenting (rear suspension arm will be steel). Just a thought...

 

[rechargeourfuture]

Well scratch stealth for now I guess. I'll go for all out "now thats an E-bike!" look instead.

Looks like some heavy modification to that frame, or a different frame, is in my future.

I have a very healthy respect for the Lipo cells after using, abusing, and "testing" them during my many years working for the hobby. I will most likely be using 25c (so 15c) rated turnigy 5000mah cells in a 12s 3p configuration. With regulated current and AH monitoring thanks to the Cycle Analyst coupled with the "best BMS (Gary/Fischer, tppacks.com) in the business" and a preset, fixed, and dedicated charger (MODDED Mean Well power supply), I am hoping to have a very purpose built and reliable E-Bike.

Using my Lipo pack at 80% SOD

15ah (rated) X .8 = 12ah (usable)

12ah X 48v would be a 576watthour (rated) pack?

5303 at 40wh/mi (.8ah/mi?) would be about 14mi range? 576/40=14.4mi

I hope my math is in the ballpark. Maybe someone can chime in and clear it up a bit.

I know of course these are static numbers and don't factor in any of the variables such as hills, wind, temp, etc...

 

[Mark_A_W]

I would just find a heavy dual suspension bike with a decent triangle space.

They do exist, earlier Kona Stinky's for instance.

 

[dogman dan]

Yes, there are definitely FS frames out there that have the triangle space, and with lipo, you can stick 5 ah here, and 5 ah there to get the 3p configuration.

Konas seem to be one brand with that kind of frame common. I belive the dog and slightly cheaper dogma also have the space in the frame. Get ready to spend at least $700 on the bike though. While hunting for the ideal FS frame, just use a steel frame hardtail in the meantime. You will gain experience and be better able to do things right when you get your ideal frame. My price on such bikes is about $25, up to about $60 if it actually can be ridden. Even a 20 year old hardtail frame will be fine as long as it can take 1 1/8 forks.

 

[chrisvw]

I can't really comment on frame strength other than the dropouts and any torque arm issues. My earlier comment about strength was really only meant to address that, not the rest of the frame. I think that the total weight and speed you'll be going are the big issues you should worry about. You're carrying a lot more weight around, so you don't want a wobbly bike. My bike is an aluminum frame with steel forks, no suspension. It really rides hard - I really try to avoid the potholes! I've noticed that I've shaken about everything loose that I can. My fenders are now wired on since the little metal strip that fastens it to the frame broke. You also want to check anything that screws together regularly because it will all come loose. If I were to do it again, I'd look harder for a suspension. Of course, if your ride is only 4 miles, I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you are mostly worried about how your backside feels, go cheap and get a suspension seat post. It won't help your hands, but is a cheap option that helps a little.

You certainly won't go the stealth route with the 5303 on the front, though you can blow by most riders fast enough they'll never see it. It is a heavy beast though. I was much more concerned about all the weight on the back.

Dogman, you're right that I pedal a lot. I've noticed HUGE differences in battery usage depending on the speed you go and amount of pedaling you do. That's probably worth another thread. I always wanted to do a standard course to see what the differences in range would be pedaling, not pedaling, etc.

 

[rechargeourfuture]

Now please go easy on me fella's...lol

I know that compared to the Stinky this is a joke but my interest here is to start as cheap as possible and "upgrade" where needed.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=11992196

That kind of full suspension leaves battery mount options wide open. Granted it's no mountain bike but better then a hardtail.

Let me know what you think of it. From the picture I can see the main frame is aluminum but I don't know about the rear arms and dropouts.

 

[Mark_A_W]

The Kona Bass (lower) is probably the best e-bike frame I have seen - you could make your own dropouts with integrated torque arms.

 

[rechargeourfuture]

-holding back credit card-

I had big plans for this budget build of mine and you go and show me something like that talking about "integrated torque arms" and what not and now I don't know what to do with myself... :wink:

I'll have to settle for less this time around. I took a look at your current build Mark and I must say that is simply inspiring, excellent work!

Searching local craigslist ads I came across this little POS . I've sent an email to the poster with a few questions. Maybe there is someone here who will recognize which model this is so I can find a spec sheet on it.

I know it's an aluminum frame but the rear arm looks like it just might be steel. If there are rear disk brakes with a caliper bracket integrated into the dropout does that usually mean said dropout will have more "meat" to it?

Again doing all the learning I can...Thanks again everyone for all the help.

 

[spinningmagnets]

"doctorbass" has a Mongoose Blackcomb that he turned into an E-bike hill-climbing hot-rod with a big Crystalyte 530X rear hub...

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3814

He changed the rear wheel to a 24" (front is still 26") and here are the "after" pics:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=235&p=86227#p86227

 

[Mark_A_W]

-holding back credit card-

I had big plans for this budget build of mine and you go and show me something like that talking about "integrated torque arms" and what not and now I don't know what to do with myself... :wink:

I'll have to settle for less this time around. I took a look at your current build Mark and I must say that is simply inspiring, excellent work!

Searching local craigslist ads I came across this little POS . I've sent an email to the poster with a few questions. Maybe there is someone here who will recognize which model this is so I can find a spec sheet on it.

I know it's an aluminum frame but the rear arm looks like it just might be steel. If there are rear disk brakes with a caliper bracket integrated into the dropout does that usually mean said dropout will have more "meat" to it?

Again doing all the learning I can...Thanks again everyone for all the help.

Difficult choice for battery mounting. Please don't even consider putting the batteries on a cantilever rack. Something will break and your handling sucks.

And no matter the dropouts, they all need proper torque arms.

 

[rechargeourfuture]

Excuse my ignorance but to what are you referring as the "cantilever rack". Is that a rear rack retrofitted to move with the suspension?
I am still trying to find something I can retrofit as a strong, weatherproof, removable, and ergonomic battery/charger box mounted to the center frame.

I'm dead set on some overkill (no such thing?) torque arms/plates. I will most likely try to convince a buddy of mine to wire a few out and top it off with a some wrenches (Thanks Doc). The question regarding the dropouts was more for personal knowledge. I would assume that a dropout that supports a caliper is better suited for an e-bike as opposed to a standard hardtail with V-brakes where the dropouts are half as big and thick. Torque plates regardless but the former would offer better protection in the case of an emergency? Maybe my line of thinking is pointless but at least I can rule it out as such, just say the word.

Thanks for grabbing the links spinningmagnets. Some good info there of course...

 

[dogman dan]

Cantileiver rack, usually called a post mount rack. This one braced with some conduit to make it hold about 50 pounds. the seat post is also reinforced with a broomstick shoved up it.

 

[Mark_A_W]

Your seat post is bent just like mine (mine has a steel post up it).


I used to have batteries on a cantilever rack. Broke the frame.

 

[rechargeourfuture]

Ah ok. Picture says a thousand words. Didn't even notice that bent seat post till you pointed it out Mark. I can see why you might have some bracing in there...

The toolbox idea is exactly what I wanted. I'll be doing some designing to keep it all midframe and organized.

 

[Mark_A_W]

the seat post is also reinforced with a broomstick shoved up it.

It's not a broomstick shoved up it's bunghole, it's an internalised carbon reinforcement cylinder.

 

[The Stig]

Cantileiver rack, usually called a post mount rack. This one braced with some conduit to make it hold about 50 pounds. the seat post is also reinforced with a broomstick shoved up it.

You know one easier method of reinforcing a cantilever rack I used was to put some very thin chain or cable or something to tie the rack to the saddle.