Battery build & Controller Upgrade

[ElectricGSXR]

I like that remote throttle set-up, you can tuck it away where it's dry and not have to worry about full throttle in the rain due to water intrusion into the hall sensor throttle on the handlebar. Any links to it? Thanks.

Amazon.ca has them here:

Amazon.ca : accelerator unit and cable line

 

[ElectricGSXR]

Do I need to buy a new throttle to use it?

 

[ElectricGSXR]

I was just wondering if I needed the BMS to charge the battery?

I have the battery put together and I wanted to give it a charge would it be ok to do so without a BMS or should I wait the 3 more days until the BMS gets here?

 

[ElectricGSXR]

My new battery pack so far.
I still have to do a couple things and add the bms, but it's coming together. Added some heady duty military webbing handles to carry the heavy mamajama. Copper bus bars are all installed and taped over to keep them safe. I'm going to get a plastic sheet or something to fasten the bms to, and mount it on either the side or top.
Still waiting on a few items to get delivered tomorrow and mid-week but I should have it ready soon. Then I'll be ready to start my journey with the controller wiring. I have a feeling that will be a lot harder though. Really happy with the Leaf modules they were a breeze to work with.

 

[amberwolf]

Do you have any pictures?

 

[amberwolf]

I like that remote throttle set-up, you can tuck it away where it's dry and not have to worry about full throttle in the rain due to water intrusion into the hall sensor throttle on the handlebar. Any links to it? Thanks.

The ones I use (wiht standard hall sensor output) came from Aliexpress for $7.50 with free shipping, now they're only $3.40 but it's $5.75 for shipping;

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32954909008.html

so far every one of them has worked fine, two of them have been on hte SB Cruiser trike for years, just ziptied to the tiller without much of a covering***. One is for the rear regen brakes, pulled by the left brake lever, and the other is for the throttle, pulled by a metal ATV thumb lever (too many broken plastic throttles).

how to make a proportional / variable regen ebrake brake lever

this project is for those that don't want to use a throttle to control braking force, and prefer a brake lever (perhaps because it is what you're already used to on a bicycle for braking, and if you've ridden as long as i have, it's so hardwired it could take years to change the reflex action...

endless-sphere.com

To use one on a regular handlebar grip, you can use a regular gas-engine motorcycle/moped/atv throttle grip that pulls a single cable (the two-cable versions may work, I don't know). You can use any cable you want that has the right end on it, or you can use any cable you want and add your own end(s) with the assorted motorcycle cable repair kits out there. (little screw-on brass lugs).

There's plenty of variations including some that come with the grip, even one for $2.60 with free shipping if you buy $10 worth of stuff.


***(had intended to build a "fairing" to cover all the stuff but as usual too many things happened and never got it done...it has a covering now, but really only to protect the wires from being pulled, etc by the cable lock I store on the tiller).

 

[ElectricGSXR]

I meant to add these to the previous post but I guess it didn't work. I plan on getting a piece of plexi glass or something more heavy duty than that very thin plastic, but something like that to mount the bms on is my idea.

 

[ElectricGSXR]

Could I take the charging port off my bike (which is just a male end of a plug) and wire it to my battery so I can charge it, or would it be better to just wait until I had the bms do you think? Bms gets here in 3 days they say.

 

[amberwolf]

Could I take the charging port off my bike (which is just a male end of a plug) and wire it to my battery so I can charge it, or would it be better to just wait until I had the bms do you think? Bms gets here in 3 days they say.

If all the cells are identical in voltage already, and have not been hand-balanced, and you *know* your charger is already set identically to the full-charge voltage of that number of those specific cells in series, then you can charge it.

If they aren't identical, then you would probably want to hand balance them one at a time with an individual power supply set to the voltage of the highest cell, or a power resistor to drain the high cells down to the lowest ones' voltage.

Then make sure your charger is set identically to the full-charge voltage of that number of those specific cells in series. If it's too high it will overcharge them.


The BMS exists to protect you and the cells against the various problems and challenges such as the above, so it is safer to use it than not, especially if you don't already know all of the stuff above and how to deal with them.

Depending on the specific BMS you're getting, you may also have to set it up / program it for your specific usage, cells, etc., using the computer-based setup program or device-based app from the BMS manufacturer.

I meant to add these to the previous post but I guess it didn't work. I plan on getting a piece of plexi glass or something more heavy duty than that very thin plastic, but something like that to mount the bms on is my idea.

I used part of an old lexan clipboard across the busbar areas of my EIG packs I use on the trike and mower, though these pics don't have that in them, I just taped it with gorilla tape on the long edges to the top of the pack (so I could lift up one edge if I ever needed to do cell testing, as I don't use a BMS or have balance wires, since these cells are so well-matched they don't go out of balance).
https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/t...-black-decker-mm850-mower.111386/post-1801341

 

[ElectricGSXR]

I will just wait it's no big deal

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

The ANT BMS wiring diagram shows the B- of BMS going to the Battery Negative. It shows the C- of the BMS going to the controller. I guess my question is, does the C- of the BMS basically become the Battery Negative?

Yeah, pretty much.

Can I make a piece of copper big enough to drill 2 holes and fasten 2 lug bolts securely to it then wrap it up after?

Sure, it's the best way to do it.

Oh 1 more question about wiring.
In the Kelly manual it shows that right after the key switch there is a fuse before it goes to PWR on the controller, but on the diagram(s) it shows 2 different rated fuses.
Diagram #1 - Section 3.2.2 page 18 of manual (full wiring): it shows a 2A fuse
Diagram #2 - Section 4.4 page 30 of manual (wiring of the Controller, Motor, Hall Sensors, Throttle, Key Switch, Main 400A Fuse, Battery Pack): it shows a 2-5A fuse
Anyone know if there is a reason for that? Should I just go with the 5A so I'm not blowing 2A fuses right and left?

I would try using the 2A fuse first.
If it bows up often for no reason then switch to a 5A.

Now I am just trying to think ahead for when I am setting my parameters for the BMS and controller.
The ANT BMS I ordered is rated for 340A continuous / 800+ peak for 30sec.
My controller is rated for 190A continuous / 360A peak for 1min.

What would be the best parameters to set the BMS and controller at for my 3kw QS hub motor so I am getting good power without killing anything.

Everything first depends on what your battery cells can deliver as far as maximum instant current.
Also, you say that the controller is rated at 360A peak but is this battery amps or phase amps?

I will assume the controller is rated at 190 battery amps for the rest of the example. Your battery is good for 500A peak so that's great. Continuous power doesn't really matter here because you will not run the bike at full throttle for an hour, there will be red lights and stops at some point.

So basically here the limiting factor is your controller. That means it will be the first thing that cuts off in case there is too much current being asked.
So if yout controller is set up at 190A battery current, and your battery is capable of 500Amps, then you can set your BMS to a maximum current of anything you want between 190A and 500A, it doesn't matter.
But I suggest leaving some margin, so in this case you should set up the BMS for at least 200A, otherwise the BMS might cut under full load. Personnally I'd set it up at 250A just to be sure it won't randomly trigger.
Anyway, what I mean is that the BMS current should be higher than the controller maximum current, always. But it must always stay within the limits of what your battery cells are capable to produce, otherwise it will not do its role to protect them.

*EDIT* I also found this Accelerator unit and cable line on Amazon:
I think it is similar to the one previously mentioned. I am thinking about getting it but I am not sure how to connect it or what to do. Would it be difficult to switch my current throttle to this style? Or is it plug and play. It looks like one end of the cable goes to the throttle, and the other end of the cable goes to the box. Then the small throttle wires just hook up the way they normally should right? I am a little confused.
View attachment 350996



Thanks everyone.

You will also need the handle.
This:

 

[Dui ni shuo de dui]

I was just wondering if I needed the BMS to charge the battery?

I have the battery put together and I wanted to give it a charge would it be ok to do so without a BMS or should I wait the 3 more days until the BMS gets here?

Be patient. There is absolutely no need to charge the battery right now, it will accomplish nothing.
Don't forget these things are extremely dangerous, you should absolutely treat it like a nuclear bomb.
Use this time you have to study. Watch youtube videos on how to wire and configure the ANT BMS instead of fiddling with the battery.

 

[ElectricGSXR]

I'm not 100% sure of the battery current output. I am just going with what I have seen here on E.S. There was a thread I saw where people had posted a data sheet for the Leaf modules but I haven't been able to find it again. It did say it was capable of 500A peak I remember that. I will search for the data sheets harder again today.

I'm not sure of the controller battery amps or phase amps. It just says continuous and peak it. 190A/360A. I'm not sure how to check battery or phase current.

 

[ElectricGSXR]

Kelly website says:
Motor RMS Current, 1 minute: 360A.
Motor RMS Current, continuous: up to 190A.
For my controller.

 

[ElectricGSXR]

I found the thread on the Leaf modules here:

Nissan Leaf Modules over 500 amps peak?

So I am finding conflicting information regarding the peak amps for a 7S configuration of Nissan Leaf modules (2013 model year). This is a 54V nominal pack and the site below claims over 500 amps peak current. Other sources have claimed lower peak current levels for this same cell. Any...

endless-sphere.com

I do not know if they are the same as the modules I have. I have the gen2 ones. They should be more or less the same though no?

250A is more than enough for me. Considering my old controller was the Yuyang King 80A, my bike has a 100A breaker so it wasn't getting much juice.
I think if I can get to 200-250A that will be an amazing upgrade for me personally.

I'd really just like things to run smooth and not overheat. If I can preserve my 3000w motor a bit longer that's ideal. I just got a bms and controller upgrade so in the future I can get a better motor than 3000w when mine dies. Maybe go up to 6000w. Then I will look for more from the controller and battery, but for now keeping power a bit lower is fine. Even a 200A max output is a flat 100A upgrade from what I had before, considering I was limited to 100A before by the breaker on the bike.

Maybe I didn't get a good enough controller for a 6000w motor in the future. I might have to settle for less. That's ok though.

 

[amberwolf]

my bike has a 100A breaker so it wasn't getting much juice.
I think if I can get to 200-250A that will be an amazing upgrade for me personally.

Is the wiring and connections to and from it capable of that current? If not, you'll want to replace that wiring/connections as well as the breaker to be able to use higher current, if you haven't already done so (I haven't followed the entire thread; apologies if I missed that).

Same for whichever fuse(s) you have in the system.

 

[amberwolf]

Kelly website says:
Motor RMS Current, 1 minute: 360A.
Motor RMS Current, continuous: up to 190A.
For my controller.

Those are the phase currents; Kelly doesn't always provide the battery current limit, but the manual or the site should provide the ratio between phase(motor)/battery.

If it doesn't, you can guesstimate it will be half of the phase current. Or, phase being 1.5x battery current is often used as a guide.

So using 1.5x as a guide, continuous 190A phase current / 1.5 = 127A battery current. 360 / 1.5 = 240. If using half as a guide, tha'ts 95A battery continuous, 180A 1minute.

 

[ElectricGSXR]

I can't find anything about battery current in the manual. I'm confused now. Is it much of an upgrade from the Yuyang King? I think I made a mistake buying the controller too soon. I didn't know anything about the battery current and phase current I was just going with the continuous and peak numbers they give. That's a big difference in numbers especially if you go half.

 

[ElectricGSXR]

My BMS is here, came early. I have just been working on it slowly.

 

[ElectricGSXR]

Do I leave the extra wires I don't need to use from the bms? - the wires that go to the battery I mean

Also, I'm not sure what to do with some other wires it came with and a little button. I am also uncertain of where to put the temperature sensors. I'll add some pictures of the loose wires I can't figure out.

There is a connector that has 2 black wires in it only and I'm not sure what to do with it. It has the same size connector that fits into the bms as the display. The wires are bare ends on the other side.

The display came with an easy enough to understand connector that just simply plugs into the back of the display itself and then plugs into the only other spot on the bsm it fits so that's not hard to figure out.. But there are 2 extra wires (red&black) that are loose and I am not sure what to do with them.

The button is just loose as well.

The temperature sensors are 2 small separate connectors. They are identical. They plug into the BMS and that doesn't confuse me, I am just wondering where to put the actual sensors themselves - I didn't bother to show pictures of the temperature sensors.

There are no mounting holes so I'm not sure what to do with the bms. My plan was to mount it onto a cutting board that I cut to size, basically just a hard piece of 1/4" plastic. Now I have no idea. I have seen people use hot glue but I'm worried it won't be strong enough to hold it over time same with tape, or the combo of the 2 even. I'd like to fasten it down secure but I'm not seeing anything. Any ideas?

 

[ElectricGSXR]

I think I'm going to just return the package to sender and call it a day with the controller. It costs like $500 CAD with shipping and everything. If it's not even that much better than the Yuyang King then forget it. I was expecting it to be a massive upgrade turns out its not really.

 

[DaLanMan]

Temp sensors you generally just snug into the battery between cels, think of that sensor as the center of a circle, and you want those 2 circles to cover as much of your battery pack as possible.

Most people smear a bit of schmoo on the back of the bms, stick that to the outside bit of barley paper or shrink wrap or what not, then put another layer of shrinkwrap around the outside of it. I personally like to leave mine in a locale that I can get eyes on the chips if needed. It is always easier for me to be able to see things when trying diagnostics, it may be because I am not a sparky or something, but ::shrugs:: I usually use clear shrinkwrap around the unit then just goop it on the back side and stick it on the battery pack preferably in a location that is out of the line of impact.

 

[ElectricGSXR]

I have the Nissan Leaf modules so they are compressed together. I don't want to risk damaging the temp sensors by sticking them in between the cells. I'm not sure where else to put them though. I figured they would be best as you said in between the modules. Best I could do would be on the outsides of the modules. Would that suffice? Temp readings are usually critical I don't want to risk anything by messing up the placement but I just don't see a way to squish them in between the modules without damaging them maybe. Big maybe.

 

[DaLanMan]

Yep, just get them on the edge where the battery packs curve away from each other, them sensors look skinny enough ya should be able to wiggle them in. I would go diagonally separate on opposite side of the battery block if that makes sense.

 

[ElectricGSXR]

That sounds doable and like it would work well. Thanks @DaLanMan