Battery build & Controller Upgrade

Not a problem, I am crap all at some things, but being Irish I evidently got a lot of common sense when it came to tasks, and absolutely none when it comes to keeping my mouth shut or drinking...

::thinks about it::

Or fighting...

Signing up for the military as a solution to something...

Thinking it would be a good idea to jump out of airplanes...
 
I think I'm going to just return the package to sender and call it a day with the controller. It costs like $500 CAD with shipping and everything. If it's not even that much better than the Yuyang King then forget it. I was expecting it to be a massive upgrade turns out its not really.
Yeah Kelly controllers kinda suck. But you said that was the only stuff you could easily find so I assumed you had no other choice.
The better option nowadays is Fardriver. If you still can change then its probably a good idea.

Do I leave the extra wires I don't need to use from the bms? - the wires that go to the battery I mean
Didn't understand what you are talking about
Also, I'm not sure what to do with some other wires it came with and a little button.
The little button is the on/off switch for the BMS. it is to be wired on the little plug with the two black wires. You can replace it for any button of your choice that you can put wherever you want on the bike. I wired it on my BMS box, it is the big red button you can see on the side on my black motorcycle.

I am also uncertain of where to put the temperature sensors.
Anywhere you want. In my case I've put 2 inside the battery between the cells to check the battery temperature, one in the battery box to see the inside of the box temperature and one outside so I can know the outside air temp.
You can also set them as triggers so the BMS cuts power if a sensor gets too hot or too cold. Too cold can be useful for example if you don't want to allow recharge when the temperature is under zero degree C (batteries usually don't like being charged when too cold).

There is a connector that has 2 black wires in it only and I'm not sure what to do with it. It has the same size connector that fits into the bms as the display. The wires are bare ends on the other side.
That's the one for the ON/Off switch I was refering to.

The display came with an easy enough to understand connector that just simply plugs into the back of the display itself and then plugs into the only other spot on the bsm it fits so that's not hard to figure out.. But there are 2 extra wires (red&black) that are loose and I am not sure what to do with them.
The display doesn't look as nice as the ones they did before, I prefered the bigger ones. At least it looks easy to integrate in a dashboard so there's that.
Anyway, the red and black are the power supply, you need to provide some power to the BMS screen. On the old screens you just had to provide any voltage between 24 and 84V. But since its a new, different screen I cannot tell you what voltage it needs, you need to read the manual and see for yourself.

The button is just loose as well.
Yeah, that's so you can replace it with a better/more beautiful button easily if you want.

The temperature sensors are 2 small separate connectors. They are identical. They plug into the BMS and that doesn't confuse me, I am just wondering where to put the actual sensors themselves - I didn't bother to show pictures of the temperature sensors.
Wherever you want, but at the very least one on the battery.
Unless they changed their software, you can't use one as a motor temp sensor because they are limited to 60 degreeC maximum (at least that was the case for all the versions that I worked with, maybe they changed it now, again, read the instructions).

There are no mounting holes so I'm not sure what to do with the bms. My plan was to mount it onto a cutting board that I cut to size, basically just a hard piece of 1/4" plastic. Now I have no idea. I have seen people use hot glue but I'm worried it won't be strong enough to hold it over time same with tape, or the combo of the 2 even. I'd like to fasten it down secure but I'm not seeing anything. Any ideas?
That you'll have to figure out yourself. I don't recommend hot glue because the BMS will heat up when doing the balancing. I suggest using screws , you just need to drill your cutting board and secure the BMS by replacing its screws with longer ones.

You want the BMS to be well secured, it should not wiggle around. Also you must protect it from water. I suggest you find some kind of waterproof electrical box.
You'll also have to protect your battery cells from rain and dirt, building an enclosure is the most time consuming and difficult part on these builds usually.

At the risk of sounding like an annoying gandpa, some of the questions you asked suggest that you didn't read the instructions all too well (screen power, on/off button, etc). You should really focus on doing your homework and read the BMS documentation carefully before doing anything else. It's not rocket science, but it is dangerous stuff, a small mistake can have very disastrous consequences for the hardware as well as yourself.
 
I did read the instructions online, but there are 2 different manuals and it's confusing. I just didn't want to mess anything up. I checked the voltages as I went and the bms is correctly wired I'm sure of it. 1 manual doesn't show a button just a small battery connected to the wires. The other manual looks older and it shows a button but the bms they are using as a example is nothing like mine and the arrows they use to point to things don't make sense. I had a idea that those things you said were true but I wanted to double check and be certain.

I will use a different switch for the bms like you did this one they give is very tiny and weak looking.

The display there is one I purchased, they have options for bigger sizes.
It looks like in other videos I have seen other peoples bms came with a display and they didn't buy it. Maybe they just left that out of the video or something. Did ANT used to send a display with the bms or something?

I was going to fasten the bms to the cutting board and have it on top of the battery pack when its all put together. Then tape + wrap everything up. Then it goes in a box made of sheet metal I made. Will that be good enough weather prevention? I can get a electrical box if I need to as well, I just figured it would be enough. I don't use the bike on rainy days only on nice days. If it turns to rain I try to get home asap. If there is rain forecasted I don't ride. Sometimes things are hard to predict though. I have been caught in light rain before when it wasn't forecasted. Old battery and everything was fine I would like that to be the case again with this new battery. Maybe better safe than sorry and just add a waterproof electrical box. Good idea thanks.

Kelly was the best option for me to buy here in Canada I thought, but I think I was placing too much importance on the wrong things. I am sacrificing too much performance and money for the sake of having better customer service/help if I need it and I was able to buy it directly from their website which I thought was really good. It just seemed like the safer way to go. However it is expensive and if I am not getting the performance out of it then why bother. What use is technical support and customer service if the controller isn't good. I was really expecting it to blow the Yuyang King out of the water but it doesn't seem that way at all now that I understand the DC amps and phase amps a little more.

I just don't really know what to do honestly.
 
This costs less than $300 with shipping and tax factored in (no duty factored in)

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It costs way less and the max dc current is 190A which is higher than the Kelly. Going by what @amberwolf said earlier about the calculations "So using 1.5x as a guide, continuous 190A phase current / 1.5 = 127A battery current. 360 / 1.5 = 240. If using half as a guide, tha'ts 95A battery continuous, 180A 1minute."

It just doesn't make sense that the Kelly is so much more money. Literally almost $200 CAD more than this Fardriver.


I might have to just bite the bullet and order from China.
 
I did read the instructions online, but there are 2 different manuals and it's confusing. I just didn't want to mess anything up. I checked the voltages as I went and the bms is correctly wired I'm sure of it. 1 manual doesn't show a button just a small battery connected to the wires. The other manual looks older and it shows a button but the bms they are using as a example is nothing like mine and the arrows they use to point to things don't make sense. I had a idea that those things you said were true but I wanted to double check and be certain.
Yeah sorry mate, didn't want to sound like a douche or anything, I just worry for you because I really don't want you to miss something and get hurt so that's why I insisted a bit. I know that chinese documentation isn't exactly the best thing hehe.

The display there is one I purchased, they have options for bigger sizes.
It looks like in other videos I have seen other peoples bms came with a display and they didn't buy it. Maybe they just left that out of the video or something. Did ANT used to send a display with the bms or something?
In my case it was a paid option, but it was real cheap.

I was going to fasten the bms to the cutting board and have it on top of the battery pack when its all put together. Then tape + wrap everything up. Then it goes in a box made of sheet metal I made. Will that be good enough weather prevention?
Yeah that should work well.

I can get a electrical box if I need to as well, I just figured it would be enough. I don't use the bike on rainy days only on nice days. If it turns to rain I try to get home asap. If there is rain forecasted I don't ride. Sometimes things are hard to predict though. I have been caught in light rain before when it wasn't forecasted. Old battery and everything was fine I would like that to be the case again with this new battery. Maybe better safe than sorry and just add a waterproof electrical box. Good idea thanks.
I did ride my bike for a while with the battery unprotected and it was fine, but it's not great, stuff got corroded.

Kelly was the best option for me to buy here in Canada I thought, but I think I was placing too much importance on the wrong things. I am sacrificing too much performance and money for the sake of having better customer service/help if I need it and I was able to buy it directly from their website which I thought was really good. It just seemed like the safer way to go. However it is expensive and if I am not getting the performance out of it then why bother. What use is technical support and customer service if the controller isn't good. I was really expecting it to blow the Yuyang King out of the water but it doesn't seem that way at all now that I understand the DC amps and phase amps a little more.

I just don't really know what to do honestly.
I'd say get a fardriver, it's a bit of work to setup and the documentation is real bad but once it works it works great. Also many people are using them on the forum so it's relatively easy to get help.

As said in PM I think this one would be a good fit: ND72850 | far-driver

But the one you mentioned should work fine as well, it is just a bit less powerful so it will limit you in the future in case you want more power with another motor.
Don't worry, we all started from somewhere and many mistakes were made. It's always very blurry and confusing the first time.
Hopefully in just a few weeks/months you'll enjoy a nice ride!
 
I can't find anything about battery current in the manual. I'm confused now.
Kelly really isnt clear about it but the "peak" current is the phase amperage and the "continuous" current is the battery amperage. So in that controllers case, 190 battery amps and 360 phase. Also these values are more of suggestions than anything as you can set higher numbers in their software interface but you do run the risk of damaging your controller.
Is it much of an upgrade from the Yuyang King?
Really anything is an upgrade over ykks, they are more or less the bottom of the barrel, I also second the fardriver recommendation, they are very good in terms of price to performance and should work well for you even if the software is a bit of a pita to use.
 
Kelly really isnt clear about it but the "peak" current is the phase amperage and the "continuous" current is the battery amperage.
I dunno; the terminology that was stated earlier in the thread that they use is pretty clear that it is the motor current, and it's AC since they're using RMS, so it cannot be for battery current which will be DC only.

Unless they're just complete idiots in writing their specs...which I don't think is true. ;)


If they really wrote their specs that way, it makes it impossible to know from the specs what the peak battery current could be, so you can't know what battery, fuse, etc., to use, and it also makes it impossible to know from the specs what the continuous motor current could be, so you can't know what performance you would actually get from the system would be. It's bad enough that they don't directly state battery current ranges, but giving just one part of one spec and a different part of another spec is worse.
 
I dunno; the terminology that was stated earlier in the thread that they use is pretty clear that it is the motor current, and it's AC since they're using RMS, so it cannot be for battery current which will be DC only.

I dunno what to tell you, from my personal experience with a 2019 kls96601 the way their software works is pretty stupid as instead of letting you set a specific amperage (for both phase and battery), you instead enter a percentage of the rated "peak current" spec, in my case it was a percentage of 600. Default for both is 100% but the interesting bit is it would not let me run the motor initially until I had set the battery amperage under that "continuous" current rating, and after that it didnt care what I did...

Ended up leaving phase at 100% (600pA) and battery amperage at 45% (270bA) and did have it up as high as 55% (330bA) but it would get pretty toasty pretty quickly so it was lowered back down. (Should note that it was drawing right around these figures from the battery)

If they really wrote their specs that way, it makes it impossible to know from the specs what the peak battery current could be, so you can't know what battery, fuse, etc., to use, and it also makes it impossible to know from the specs what the continuous motor current could be, so you can't know what performance you would actually get from the system would be.

Well it shipped with a 400 amp fuse which lends credence to the pA="peak" and bA="continuous" 🤷‍♂️ I think its probably just a case of poor/lost in translation, guess no one caught it (or rather no one bothered to fix it) in the decade and a half its been that way...but then again I might just be missing something :?

Wouldve been nice if it still worked so I couldve gone and tested all of this again:sad: If only clear documentation was a standard sighs

EDIT: correction! just went and checked its a 300 amp fuse apparently? "CNL-300A" if I had to guess probably never blew as those 330 amp draws were most likely for short enough periods of time that it would survive it...oh and it appears that the shunt is rated for 400 amps, thats probably where I got that figure from.
 
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I dunno; the terminology that was stated earlier in the thread that they use is pretty clear that it is the motor current, and it's AC since they're using RMS, so it cannot be for battery current which will be DC only.
Unless they're just complete idiots in writing their specs...which I don't think is true. ;)

From my experience at least, thebes is probably correct. If I were to guess I'd say the kelly we're talking about should be somewhere in between 150-190 battery amps. That's more or less what is to be expected for 360 phase amps if you compare it to other brands (sabvoton 72150 for example is 350phA and 150bA).

I own a KLS72701, which is given for "280 continuous current and 700 peak current" and under acceleration I get a bit more than 300Amps from the battery, while the bike feels pretty much the same as when I set a 700phase amps on my fardriver. It is not a bad controller, but it doesn't seem to monitor the battery current at all and there are a few things that suck (the programming interface, the absence of flux weakening,...)

Can't say for sure how their ratings work, but it is confusing to say the least and all the other manufacturers went for what seem to me like a much better system. So I'd say they are probably at least partial idiots on this one :LOL:
 
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Thanks so much for all of the input you guys are seriously awesome!

Kelly also uses something they call "Current Multiplication" and they state:
  • Current multiplication: Take less current from battery, output more current to motor
Unsure what it really means or does though in reality. Sounds good on paper.

I figured something had to be up because it didn't make sense that the Kelly is so much more money. 190A battery makes more sense but is still low when I look at some of the Fardriver controllers.
The Fardriver ND72680 for example will cost me about the same money shipped from China, as the Kelly from the U.S shipped to my house. It looks like much better performance for the money though.
Quality/beauty seems a little less than the Kelly but I don't think the looks matter much. As long as it works well and does what I need it to do, it could look like the Yuyang King for all I care.

Like I said before I'm not really looking for crazy performance or speeds, and I would rather have something that has the capability doing it, but is very happy working at the lower power I use. Not overheating or stressing. That way in the future when my motor does die, I have the option of looking at maybe a 5kw or 6kw motor. I'm not sure if it's enough for a 6kw motor, but its a lot better than the Kelly.

The Kelly will get here today but I will return it for all of the reasons stated. I am going with this Fardriver ND72680.

Thanks again everyone for putting up with all of my crazy questions and for switching up on my decisions/components so much. I think this is it now. The last item to be shipped and installed. The hardest part of the project probably. Onward to victory!
I hope :ROFLMAO: haha.
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So I'd say they are probably at least partial idiots on this one
I don't think it's about them being idiots, but rather if they use max phase numbers, it's a bigger number, which they think will sell.
 
Kelly also uses something they call "Current Multiplication" and they state:
  • Current multiplication: Take less current from battery, output more current to motor
That is just how motor controllers work. They are power converters, so they take watts in at some voltage and current and provide the watts back out as a different current and voltage to the motor, to make / allow the motor do what you need it to.
 
The Fardriver ND72680 is a good controller. Cheap an powerful.
Twice the power like a Sabvoton SVMC72150 and a lot smaller.
I used it for a year before I upgraded to the ND721800. Before I had the SVMC72150 installed for two years.

I had set the 72680 to 300bA and 600pA. with my 5kW QS260 Motor. I also tried 330bA and 640pA with a 10kW QS Motor.
Setting to 350bA or 680pA was not possible, I always got errors when driving with the max values.
Probably I had not the right PID settings to max it out..
 
I got the bms running but I'm not sure what to do now.

I'm not sure why cell 20 is showing 7v

I tried to turn the BMS off but I couldn't, the lights are still on. I noticed there are passwords and some other things but it doesn't let me change anything. Do I have to change the passwords first or something?
 

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I can turn the bms off now in the app.

I set it to Lion / 20S / 40Ah but it says 50Ah on the main "state" screen I don't get it.

I'm lost, If anyone can help me get this set up I would really appreciate it.
 
I'm not sure why cell 20 is showing 7v
Since the next cell shows it's totally dead, it's probably miswired so you are skipping a whole group and monitoring one group with two wires.

If it's not miswired, and those voltages are real (unlikely if you already measured them as being identical before assembling the pack---you did measure everything first to make sure your cells are any good?), then both those groups are destroyed, one totally discharged and one fatally overcharged).
 
I'm not sure why cell 20 is showing 7v
Since the next cell shows it's totally dead, it's probably miswired so you are skipping a whole group and monitoring one group with two wires.

If it's not miswired, and those voltages are real (unlikely if you already measured them as being identical before assembling the pack---you did measure everything first to make sure your cells are any good?), then both those groups are destroyed, one totally discharged and one fatally overcharged).

You also have other groups showing totally dead cells, and those are destroyed if that's real voltage across them.
 
Since your cells are leaf modules which are 2s2p and it looks like you wired the other 9 modules correctly, I would look at the wiring on module 10
later floyd
 
I'm only using 20/24 wires for 20S. 4 wires are not being used that's why I think they look dead.


Ah. But still, if it shows double the voltage on a group, a miswire that skips a whole group would do that.

I highly recommend you get in there on the actual cell terminals with a multimeter and measure the individual group voltages, starting at the most negative from the main B- wire, working your way to the B+ wire, and documenting these as you go.

Then you can compare them to the ones the BMS sees, and make sure you and the BMS have the same number of voltages and taht they match.

You can also verify where each BMS wire goes while you're at it.
 
it's almost correct, but the wire labeled 1 should be the black, ground wire.
So the 2 should become 1, 3 becomes 2, and so on.
The last one should be 20, as you have a 20S battery, not 21S.
 
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