First e-bike build. Give your opinion.

[stijn13]

Hey
What I want :
Stealth commuter: In Belgium the max is 250W. So I would like that its difficult to see that it is a electric bike. My donor bike would by a MTB whit a baggage carrier on the back, so I can putt bags over it. This bags will be the position for the battery and the controller. (something like this). This would make it also difficult to see the hub motor on the back.

Speed: 48Km/h(30Mph)
Distance: 35Km(22M) on flat terrain whiteout pedaling.
Me 70Kg + Bike 30kg(max) = 100Kg




What I think that I need :
1) A donor bike,
2) 1 x 48V geard hub motor 1000W that can do 365 Rpm whit free wheel disc brake and a drive train.

or 2x 500W hub motor’ that can do 365Rpm.
3) 1 or 2 pair of ebike torque arms
4) A controller for the 1000W motor
Or a dual driver controller for de 2x 500W motor’
5) One LCD
6) One pal sensor
7) One speed sensor
8) A twist throttle
9) A battery 48V 20Ah + charger + BMS

am i on the good way?
are there recommendations or suggestions about type of parts?

Thanks stijn

 

[CellBalance]

Hey
What I want :
Stealth commuter: In Belgium the max is 250W. So I would like that its difficult to see that it is a electric bike. My donor bike would by a MTB whit a baggage carrier on the back, so I can putt bags over it. This bags will be the position for the battery and the controller. (something like this). This would make it also difficult to see the hub motor on the back.
Speed: 48Km/h(30Mph)
Distance: 35Km(22M) on flat terrain whiteout pedaling.
Me 70Kg + Bike 30kg(max) = 100Kg

What I think that I need :
1) A donor bike,
2) 1 x 48V geard hub motor 1000W that can do 365 Rpm whit free wheel disc brake and a drive train.

or 2x 500W hub motor’ that can do 365Rpm.
3) 1 or 2 pair of ebike torque arms
4) A controller for the 1000W motor
Or a dual driver controller for de 2x 500W motor’
5) One LCD
6) One pal sensor
7) One speed sensor
8) A twist throttle
9) A battery 48V 20Ah + charger + BMS

am i on the good way?
are there recommendations or suggestions about type of parts?

Thanks stijn

Good ideas.

Straight hub motors are great for the flats. The beauty of straight hub motors is that they have 1 (ONE) moving part. Cars have 10,000! Crystalite or Golden motor or 9 Continents maybe.
Silent.
750W might suffice. I got 30 mph with a Crystalite 408 (500W rated), 52T chainring/11T back fast pedaling with 72V LiFePO4.

Motor speed is directly proportional to V.

Geared hub is good too. Lets the motor spin at higher rpm which motors like.
As you probably know, unlike the straight hub, they freewheel. That's nice.
Downside is noise of gears (not stealth) and gear wear.

With either of those, a torque arm on BOTH sides is a good idea because there's a lot of leverage applied to the axle/drop-outs. "Pairs" you said? Hey, why NOT double up if you have the space.

If you had lots of hills you might consider a crank/bottom bracket drive (more moving parts but still way < 10k) that accesses your rear gearing via your chain. e.g. Bafang - http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=50104

I highly recommend the CycleAnalyst http://ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml to know what's going on, your burn rate, etc.
With it I was able to determine that my Crystalite 408 straight hub motor was using ~18Wh/mile. That's ~500km/liter petrol equivalent.

You can figure range based on Wh/km, your pack V and A.

After some experience re: the inadequacies of bms/battery management systems/pcm re: cell balance
...to really know what's going on with individual cells, the Cellog: http://www.progressiverc.com/celllog-8s.html ).

The next step for me in that regard to deal with keeping cells balanced is (just got/haven't used yet) an iCharger balancing charger that I'm going to power with a computer power supply - http://www.progressiverc.com/icharger-1010b.html

...a mirror and a good helmet.

Good luck and have fun with that.
John

 

[d8veh]

You should upgrade your brakes too to hydraulic disk on the front and maybe a cable disk on the back if you have the mount points on your frame.They don't cost much if you buy used ones from Ebay or wherever.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

Looks good. I would add Kevlar tires and thicker puncture resistant tire tubes. Getting flats on an ebike can be a pain so you want to prevent that as much as possible.

8)

 

[stijn13]

You should upgrade your brakes too to hydraulic disk on the front and maybe a cable disk on the back if you have the mount points on your frame.They don't cost much if you buy used ones from Ebay or wherever.

Thanks for the replay's
The donor bike that im looking for will be have cable disk brakes on the front and on the back.
Stijn

 

[dogman dan]

That should be plenty of brakes for cruising 30 mph on open roads. If you needed more, maybe you needed a how you ride in the city traffic adjustment. :wink: Ride reckless, and brakes won't save you is what I mean.

1000w will get you to 30 mph in general. What voltage you need depends on the motor rpm. a 25 amps controller will provide the amps you need, but more is fun. A motor as fast rpm as you spec will get to 30 mph on 48v. Lots of people like a Mac in the 10T winding. It will make enough noise to be noticed by those that care. A dd motor will be quieter, but still not completely silent.

Hide it behind panniers works good. But if the battery is big, and it will be, then get it split in half so you can carry each half in the panniers. A large 48v battery on top of the rack, plus a rear motor, will result in a wobbly or twitchy steering ride.

Hide the controller, but don't cut off all ventilating air to it. The wiring you can't hide (throttle), run it alongside the shift or brake cables and nobody will see it. If you run a wattmeter, you can do the same with it's wires to the bars.

Stealth? If you are flying around loaded with panniers and going 30 mph, you are NOT stealthy anymore. You look weird to everybody who looks. 95% won't be looking though.

 

[biohazardman]

You might be OK with the stock cable disk brakes so long as they are decent quality. You will know soon enough, on your first couple of rides, if you need an upgrade. I have a bit more weight to haul than you so felt an upgrade to larger rotors was needed although I retained the original cable calipers. Just the change to larger rotors made a huge improvement. Would probly go hydraulic with over sized rotors if I had more weight or was traveling faster.

That's a good sized, likely heavy like 20-30lb, battery to carry around all the time unless you go lipo. I don't like more than 10 lbs on the rear rack as it affects handling negatively especially at lower speeds and around corners.

You will need a strong frame and rear rack. Search around on the forum to see what people are using and what is lasting.

May want to think about a full suspension bike if you are going to travel that distance regularly. The higher speeds make the bumps more brutal. Else a good quality suspension seatpost would be the next best option.

Don't forget a battery cutoff switch and a brake switch that will cutout your motor both should be there for safety reasons as well as convenience.

I consider a rearview mirror a safety requirement as well. A glance in the mirror, at the right moment, saved me from being run over once as I saw the car coming and got out of the way just in time.

Last but not least don't be in a hurry, buy the best you can afford, overbuild everything for a safe and lasting ride.

Hard to tell you what to buy as where you live and what you are willing to spend and how long you are willing to wait will dictate what is available for you project.

I wish you luck in you endeavor.

 

[stijn13]

1000w will get you to 30 mph in general. What voltage you need depends on the motor rpm. a 25 amps controller will provide the amps you need, but more is fun. A motor as fast rpm as you spec will get to 30 mph on 48v. Lots of people like a Mac in the 10T winding. It will make enough noise to be noticed by those that care. A dd motor will be quieter, but still not completely silent.

Hide it behind panniers works good. But if the battery is big, and it will be, then get it split in half so you can carry each half in the panniers. A large 48v battery on top of the rack, plus a rear motor, will result in a wobbly or twitchy steering ride.

Hide the controller, but don't cut off all ventilating air to it. The wiring you can't hide (throttle), run it alongside the shift or brake cables and nobody will see it. If you run a wattmeter, you can do the same with it's wires to the bars.

Stealth? If you are flying around loaded with panniers and going 30 mph, you are NOT stealthy anymore. You look weird to everybody who looks. 95% won't be looking though.

This is the my order list from BMS battery.

HWBS - Hidden Wire Brake Sensor 1pcs €4.29 http://www.bmsbattery.com/accessory/459-hwbs-hidden-wire-brake-sensor.html
A Pair of EBike Torque Arm Size : M12 €10.89 http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/450-a-pair-of-ebike-torque-arm.html
S-LCD1 E-Bike LCD Meter Voltage : 36V/48v €18.88 http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/548-s-led770-e-bike-led-meter.html
Eight poles PAS--Pulse Padel Assistant Sensor €1.38 http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/570-pas-pulse-padel-assistant-sensor.html
Twist Grip Throttle €1.45 http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/50-twist-grip-throttle.html
14-28 Teeth Freewheel Speed Level : 7-Speed €5.81 http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/48-14-28-teeth-shimano-freewheel.html
Speed Sensor €1.38 http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/550-s-led770-e-bike-led-meter.html
48V20Ah Li-Ion Shrink Tube EBike Battery Pack
AC Voltage : 200V~264V €268.01 http://www.bmsbattery.com/48v/249-48v-10ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html
Q11 48V1KW REAR Driving E-Bike Hub Motor Wheel
Wheel(rim) : 26" €82.93 http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit...-driving-hub-motor-e-bike-conversion-kit.html
KU151 15Mosfets 1KW Controller for Brushless Motor
Voltage : 48V €22.52 http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/192-universal-brushless-hub-motor-controller-0123456780880.html

I didin't order yet.
The main difeculty is that not a lot of companys sell everyting, and every shiping is 200$ extra.

if somebody has a better idea pleas let me know.
i would like to spend around 1000€ whitout the donor bike.

 

[stijn13]

Straight hub motors are great for the flats. The beauty of straight hub motors is that they have 1 (ONE) moving part. Cars have 10,000! Crystalite or Golden motor or 9 Continents maybe.
Silent.
750W might suffice. I got 30 mph with a Crystalite 408 (500W rated), 52T chainring/11T back fast pedaling with 72V LiFePO4.

i check out the Crystalite 408. http://shop.crystalyte-europe.com/product.php?productid=16227 In europ not available anymore.

stijn

 

[stijn13]

.
That's a good sized, likely heavy like 20-30lb, battery to carry around all the time unless you go lipo. I don't like more than 10 lbs on the rear rack as it affects handling negatively especially at lower speeds and around corners.

You will need a strong frame and rear rack. Search around on the forum to see what people are using and what is lasting.

May want to think about a full suspension bike if you are going to travel that distance regularly. The higher speeds make the bumps more brutal. Else a good quality suspension seatpost would be the next best option.

i also would like a full suspension bike; butt its difficult to find a good rear rack that is strong enough an fits a full suspension bike.

Stijn

 

[biohazardman]

You are correct there is not much available for that kind of weight. OMM http://www.oldmanmountain.com/Pages/RackPages/RearRacks.html makes a front or rear rack that might werq for you depending on your frame and motor placement. Still others can be modified to werq frame and rack dependent of course. The weight would be much less noticeable if placed in the triangle although not as stealthy and a more difficult install. Always so many things to take into consideration.

 

[heavymetalthunder]

Install some head and tail lights. Drivers as well as other bicyclist are not use to the speeds E-bikes can do.

 

[DAND214]

Are you sure on BMSBATTERY?

Lots of unhappy members here, but also many happy ones.

If you order from them, you might want to email them on what you want and ask for shipping quote.
You might find that after ordering they will want more mony than listed.
Also you might want to order extra pieces. Like your brake switches, throttle, controller. The most common things to go wrong.

Think twice.

Dan

 

[dogman dan]

I can only say I never bought from bms battery. They sell ebay style. Cheap price high shipping I mean.

I have had opportunities to buy from folks in my country, if not just had them send me free stuff for reviewing.

The 408 is THE stealth motor, but you can only find them used now. The more common larger diameter hubmotors tend to make a bit more noise than a 408, but should be quieter than a gearmotor. Big bags will hide a big motor pretty good.

Again, at 30 mph you aint hiding your motor. Nobody will see a big motor behind the bags if you ride slower and faux pedal.

Re the rack, if you do get a FS bike later, you add a diagonal brace to the seatpost racks to strengthen them. Check out the Axxiom pannier seatpost rack. That's been my favorite. With the brace, I carried 50 pounds with no problems.

To carry real weight, get a longtail. Maybe add a longtail conversion kit to your bike.

 

[d8veh]

The free-wheel won't be much good. You need one with 11T top gear. You won't be able to pedal fast enough. Do a search for DNP free-wheels.

BMSbattery are no problem. I just placed my 20th order with them.

 

[stijn13]

Hey,

The donor bike. I still have 3 options.
Bike 1
- Made out of steel
- No disc breaks, So i have to install them myselfe (not sure if it is possible)
- Full suspension

or
Bike 2
- Made out of steel
- Cable disk brakes
- Front suspension

Bike 3
- Made out of Aluminium
- hydraulic disk brakes
- Front suspension

which option would you choose?

 

[Drunkskunk]

Bike #2 is the best bet. Bike #3 has a few issues, although it looks nicer.
Forget #1. Thats what we call a BSO. (Bike Shaped Object). Its not a good bike at all.

The problems I see with bike #3 are the non standard wheel lacing and rim. That will cause the hub motor to stand out on that bike. Any wheel you put on the back won't come close to matching the front, drawing the eye to see why it's mismatched.
The hydro brakes on it are also a problem. Very good hydros are as effective as decent mech disks, but cheap hydros are worse than nothing. If you don't pay more than $150 per axle for hydros, don't bother using them.

 

[dogman dan]

Bike one is junk. If you had one laying in the yard, it would be great for some first experiments and gaining experience. But otherwise, a cheap bike that won't last more than 500-2000 miles.

Bike two looks good, especially if it's a 21 speed. Seven speed rear gears is what matches what you get on motors.

Bike three looks like a 27 speed, which would need changes to the chain and shifters to work. You can get away with using bikes with 8 rear gears, but 9 doesn't work well.

Even the brakes on bike one are OK to 30 mph. V brakes stop good compared to cheap caliper type or coaster brakes. So even the BSO v brakes stop you ok to 30 mph.

 

[stijn13]

Bike one is junk. If you had one laying in the yard, it would be great for some first experiments and gaining experience. But otherwise, a cheap bike that won't last more than 500-2000 miles.

Bike two looks good, especially if it's a 21 speed. Seven speed rear gears is what matches what you get on motors.

Bike three looks like a 27 speed, which would need changes to the chain and shifters to work. You can get away with using bikes with 8 rear gears, but 9 doesn't work well.

Even the brakes on bike one are OK to 30 mph. V brakes stop good compared to cheap caliper type or coaster brakes. So even the BSO v brakes stop you ok to 30 mph.

Bike one 18 Speed
Bike two 21 Speed
Bike three 24 Speed

is the steel frame from bike two a big advantage point in comparison to bike three?

 

[Drunkskunk]

is the steel frame from bike two a big advantage point in comparison to bike three?

Yes, and no. Not so much for the kind of bike you're building. Steel is stronger and more forgiving than aloy, but with propper use of torque arms, an aloy frame is fine at the power level you're looking for.
The fact that bike #2 is steel is just a minor advantage for your purpose. Bike #2 has a bunch of minor advantages we haven't mintioned yet because they don't nessessaraly afect your needs. Other minor advantages come from the large open triangle, making the fitting of a frame bag easier. For your stealth purposes, that may not be an advantage to you, but mounting the batteries in the frame would make a much more balanced and stable bike. Frame #2 also has a standard headset, instead of the intagrated thing on #3. that will make swapping forks much easier. But again, minor thing. a good fork will cost 6 times what this entire bike costs, so that may not be a big deal. And as Dogman mentioned the 7 speed rear is a real advantage. trying to make a 24 speed work is hit and miss. you might be able to git an 8 speed freewheel on a motor, but maybe not, and if it doesn't work, you'll have to change out the derailer and shifter for a 6 or 7 speed.

 

[d8veh]

There's plenty of other good bikes to choose from. Have a look on Ebay. You should be able to get a better one for half the price.

 

[stijn13]

Hey

From when do you have to putt a BMS insite?
The battery that i choose has a LVC and a HVC. Do i still need a BMS, or is this only for a battery that you make yourself?
http://www.bmsbattery.com/48v/249-48v-10ah-lithium-ion-electric-bicycle-battery-pack.html

Stijn

 

[Drunkskunk]

That batter has some form of BMS (Battery Management System) as it takes a BMS to give it a HVC and LVC.
However, thats not a good battery. It can handle 15 amps output. Thats just 0.75c. Absolutly awefull. a 1000w motor would destroy that battery. A minimum standard would be a battery with atleast 2C.

 

[stijn13]

Than i have to go to dis?

1)48V 20Ah 2C
http://www.bmsbattery.com/packs/161...attery-16-cells-2p16s-ebike-battery-pack.html
Butt the battery is to big for my bags

or
2) 50V 20Ah 2C
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=106

or
3) 2x 50V 10,25Ah 1C
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=128

or
4) 1x or 2x 50V 14,35Ah 2C
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=132

or
5) 1x 50V 18,5Ah 1,6C (exit stealt)
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=123

all this battery's are mutsh mor expensive and have no Charger yet.

 

[d8veh]

That batter has some form of BMS (Battery Management System) as it takes a BMS to give it a HVC and LVC.
However, thats not a good battery. It can handle 15 amps output. Thats just 0.75c. Absolutly awefull. a 1000w motor would destroy that battery. A minimum standard would be a battery with atleast 2C.

The description must be incorrect. I use these batteries at 30 amps with no problems. My main bike has done more than 1000 miles like that and the battery is two years old with no noticeable loss of performance or capacity. I have three of them. If you look, you'll notice that they have the same description for the 10aH version, so, you'd expect the 20aH one to be double.

They use their Smart BMS in it, which comes in two versions: 10 to 20A or 20 to 40A. They must use the 20 to 40A one, because I'm regularly at the 30 amps max of my controller, so in my reckoning, they're rated at 20 amps continuous and 40 amps max.