Gas prices in your area??

[neptronix]

Was gonna say man.. my car is pretty dang small and its 1900 pounds. 1500 is like WOW! I think its tough to get normal folks to want anything less than 3000 though. The ball and chain's car is 3800 pounds and nothing she wants is any lighter.. Would love to see more compacts on the road though.

I am with you there. Less weight = better fuel economy, period. This is how the Honda CRX HF, Geo Metro, Toyota Tercel, ETC. were able to pull over 40mpg hwy and 30-40mpg city back in the day, without fancy new tech like variable valve timing, direct injection, diamond-like-coated block components, ETC.

Safety - Weight - HP are all a death spiral for efficiency.
That has to end.

I like my car.. 2500lbs with a 2.0L DOHC motor. Just barely enough power to get in trouble with, no more. It's no Civic, but i can average 30mpg if i'm nice to it.

 

[Kingfish]

In answer to the OP:
I don’t care as it troubles me little; I’ve gone Green.

It’s been nearly two years now since I drove my awesome 4x4 – restored to nearly mint condition – down to a dry climate and stored upon solid blocks of wood. Occasionally I visit my truck and turn the motor over to keep things in working order. But it is only a matter of time before the seals and hoses break down; nothing lasts forever.

I don’t even recall what it cost me to fill it up last – except that with two tanks holding about 32 gallons, it was expensive. Today, all I see is the electric bill… which by itself appears quite reasonable considering how often and how far I go on a charge. 8)

May yours be ever so low as well, KF

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The mention of cars that do 30 or 40mpg being, apparently, "economical" is a bit scary. I'd not even think about owning a car that did less than 50mpg, and haven't for a few years. The last car I had that was as low as 35mpg was around 6 years ago and cost me a small fortune to run - I saved around £1500 (~$2200) a year in fuel by switching to a Prius. My current car (and the last one) manages around 55 to 60mpg, my wife's compact 5 door diesel hatchback car does a steady 63mpg. Neither are particularly frugal by European standards, many of my friends drive around in cars that do 65 to 70mpg or more.

BTW, both our cars have AC on most of the time, have power steering etc. I've found that modern electric AC and power steering systems don't seem to make any measurable difference in economy for day to day driving, unlike the big belt driven systems that were common years ago. My fuel economy in summer is around 10% better than in winter (as is the case for most cars) yet it's in summer that the AC is working hardest. My guess is that the day-to-day variability in fuel consumption from weather, different routes etc is greater than that from the AC so masks it.

I can well remember turning off the AC in my old Jag years ago and seeing the dash computer display jump by maybe 3mpg, though...................

Jeremy

 

[Evoforce]

Hmmmm. I just wrote a frikken book and it didn't post.

 

[neptronix]

The mention of cars that do 30 or 40mpg being, apparently, "economical" is a bit scary.

Last number i saw is that America averages either 22.2mpg or 25.2mpg..

*waits for Jeremy to choke on his coffee*

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The mention of cars that do 30 or 40mpg being, apparently, "economical" is a bit scary.

Last number i saw is that America averages either 22.2mpg or 25.2mpg..

*waits for Jeremy to choke on his coffee*

The last lot of data I could find gave a figure for the US of 22.4mpg. I quoted it earlier in the thread in this post: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24145&start=30#p352034

Pretty grim when you look at the average fuel use per car in the US compared to the UK, taking into account the differing annual mileage figures.

Jeremy

 

[John in CR]

My primary vehicle has averaged just over 500 miles per US gallon for the past 25 months. 8) That's low by ebike standards but I ride hard and fast, and it's probably less electricity than my computer has used over the same period, which goes a long way to offset small amount of use at 15mpg or so that our minivan averages due to mountains and traffic. That 500mpg is based on the current price here of regular unleaded of $4.25/gal, and electricity at $.17/kwh.

 

[x88x]

Neither are particularly frugal by European standards, many of my friends drive around in cars that do 65 to 70mpg or more.

That's the thing though..by European standards, yes, 40mpg sounds lousy. By American standards it's quite good. There are a number of reasons for that, most of which I think have already been covered in this thread. Of course, it doesn't help that America seems to have developed a mortal fear of any sort of passenger car having a diesel engine. Driving routes also has an effect when it comes to certain alternatives, like your Prius, as well. For example, like I mentioned earlier, my daily commute consists of around 70% highway driving..probably more like 80%, now that I think of it. Given that, even if I could remotely afford a parallel hybrid, the fuel savings wouldn't really be much at all.

 

[Tiberius]

Remember US gallons are smaller than real gallons, so quoted mpg figures are not directly comparable.

I think US miles are the same as real ones, at least on a straight road. If its curved they get a small error from using the wrong side.

It is interesting that we still talk over here in mpg, even though we buy gas and diesel in litres and its not an easy calculation to do. My 11 year old car gets almost exactly 10 miles per litre, which is 45.4 miles per gallon.

The official unit we are supposed to use in Europe is litres per 100 km, but I've never heard anyone in the UK doing so.

Nick

 

[liveforphysics]

The mention of cars that do 30 or 40mpg being, apparently, "economical" is a bit scary. I'd not even think about owning a car that did less than 50mpg, and haven't for a few years.

It puzzles me that my Civic racecar (which I tuned to go into a steep lean-burn curve at light throttle loads, and has very high compression) gets well over >40mpg just cruising down the highway, it can obliterate new corvettes, supercharged cobra mustangs, 996, vipers, and even crushes a Ferrari Enzo in the quarter mile. And yet, it cruises along at >40mpg on the highway when you're taking it easy (like 60-70mph). Does this not seem like it would sell well? It would be the fastest car your company has every made/sold, it would have the best (or at least close to the best) fuel economy, and every second of driving it makes a smile from ear-to-ear.

It's not some magic technology. Any vehicle OEM could copy the performance of my racecar, the basic idea is quite simple, 1992 Civic VX chassis (extremely light and aerodynamic), built high compression K-series engine swapped in. And yet... what do we get from the OEMs? Giant heavy turds on wheels that feel like sensory-deprivation torture to drive (this is from all OEMs, even Honda), and get terrible fuel economy.

Do they think consumers wouldn't want blazingly fast, fun, exciting, fuel efficient cars?

 

[Tiberius]

Do they think consumers wouldn't want blazingly fast, fun, exciting, fuel efficient cars?

Luke, you are a minority.

The suspension and steering settings have to be changed for north america when auto makers try to make world models.

Take to the air, I say. There are plenty of airplanes that will get better mileage than a lot of cars.

Nick

 

[vanilla ice]

Giant heavy turds on wheels that feel like sensory-deprivation torture to drive (this is from all OEMs, even Honda), and get terrible fuel economy. Do they think consumers wouldn't want blazingly fast, fun, exciting, fuel efficient cars?

The scary part is they DO know what people want.. and tank turd sensory deprivation chambers is what people want.

 

[Gordo]

Remember US gallons are smaller than real gallons, so quoted mpg figures are not directly comparable.

I think US miles are the same as real ones, at least on a straight road. If its curved they get a small error from using the wrong side.

It is interesting that we still talk over here in mpg, even though we buy gas and diesel in litres and its not an easy calculation to do. My 11 year old car gets almost exactly 10 miles per litre, which is 45.4 miles per gallon.

The official unit we are supposed to use in Europe is litres per 100 km, but I've never heard anyone in the UK doing so.

Nick

Nick;
I have never understood the concept of miles per gallon or kilometers per liter for that matter. To me they are both totally meaningless. If you want a comparison of costs from one place on the planet to the other, pick a currency and compare $$$ per mile or kilometers per $$$. Isn't this what you really want to know?
My electric scooter costs me @ $0.008 per kilometer. My car $0.12 per kilometer. My SUV $0.14 per kilometer, my RV $0.28 pkm and my boat $0.38 pkm. As the RV costs $0.30 pkm when towing the boat, it seems the smartest idea is to never launch it, just tow it around?

 

[John in CR]

...Giant heavy turds on wheels that feel like sensory-deprivation torture to drive...

Luke,

I think that best explains why I love riding my hubmotored ebikes so much, because they are the exact opposite. I've noticed that over the past year the thrill of extra speed has worn off, and when I ride without my helmet I find myself settling at a speed just below where I get wind noise across my ears. The combination of motion and being so exposed with near silence other than noise from the outside world results in a sense of heightened awareness greater than I've ever known. I still enjoy driving on rare occasion, but it really is like a sensory deprivation chamber where I turn music on and get lost in my own thoughts with my internal auto pilot paying enough attention to avoid the idiots and obstacles of the road.

 

[Tiberius]

If you want a comparison of costs from one place on the planet to the other, pick a currency and compare $$$ per mile or kilometers per $$$. Isn't this what you really want to know?

Maybe, but earnings vary from country to country so even that might not be best. How about how long you have to work in order to drive a mile? When it gets to more than 20 minutes you might as well walk.

Nick

 

[liveforphysics]

Giant heavy turds on wheels that feel like sensory-deprivation torture to drive (this is from all OEMs, even Honda), and get terrible fuel economy. Do they think consumers wouldn't want blazingly fast, fun, exciting, fuel efficient cars?

The scary part is they DO know what people want.. and tank turd sensory deprivation chambers is what people want.

You may have a bit of a point there.
My ceramic twin disk clutch does make your left leg start to quiver and cramp driving in traffic.
And most people don't feel very safe in a car that literally bucks and jumps into other lanes of traffic when fighting to control wheelspin on the freeway. And the drag springs in the back kinda feel like its going to knock your teeth out when you hit bumps. And I shred trannys and engines at an interval more often than most cars get an oil change.
But! Those things would be easy for a manufacture to soften up a bit, and say only give it half the horsepower so it doesn't break things.

 

[x88x]

My electric scooter costs me @ $0.008 per kilometer. My car $0.12 per kilometer. My SUV $0.14 per kilometer, my RV $0.28 pkm and my boat $0.38 pkm. As the RV costs $0.30 pkm when towing the boat, it seems the smartest idea is to never launch it, just tow it around?

This got my curious to see how much of a difference there is in fuel costs for various mileages. I threw together this spreadsheet if anyone's interested (see attached file). It takes $/gallon and miles driven per year (mpy) and determines the gallons per year (gpy), $ per year, $/mi and $/km for every integer mpg from 1 to 100, as well as the savings in $/year for each step, plus off to the side the savings in $/year, $/mi, and $/km between two user-definable mpg values.

It's interesting. The dropoff of savings per year is relatively negligible once you pass a certain point, that is a lot lower than I thought it would be. For example, purely in fuel costs, at current average US fuel costs (say, $3/gal), with my current ~10,000 mi/year driving habits, going from 40mpg to 50mpg would only save me $150/year...and going from 50 to 80 would only save me another $225/year. Compared to the difference between, say, 15 and 30 ($1,000/year), the difference in cost becomes relatively minor, especially when the cost of the new vehicle comes into play. For example, the 2010 Prius has a MSRP starting price of $22,800 vs the 2010 Corolla MSRP starting price of $15,600. They don't list the combined mileage figure for the Corrola, but going off strictly the spec values (yes, I know, real world values would probably be better, but the spec values are right there), the city/highway values are 51/48 and 28/35 respectively. That works out to a savings of probably between $483.19 and $232.14 per year, depending on driving style/environment/etc. Even if gas were to go up to $10/gal, that would only increase to between $1,610.64 and $773.81 per year, so even at $10/gal you would have to keep the Prius for at least about 4.5 years to break even. Personally, I run my vehicles into the ground (well, vehicle, I'm still on my first car; got it at ~130k, currently almost at 156k, planning on running till at least 200k), so 4.5 years is nothing to me in terms of vehicle life, but for your average American consumer that's a pretty long time.

Disclaimer: I'm not by any means saying that high mileage is pointless; I think every industry should try and be as efficient as possible. I just found the results interesting and thought some of you would too.

 

[vanilla ice]

..hose things would be easy for a manufacture to soften up a bit

I'm with you.. My hatch was the lady's when we met, now I've made it so rough she won't even ride in it. But the only way to get the factories to offer your kinda car is to make other consumers out there more like us. Most of the light sporty car models are gone due to lack of demand.. Look at the numbers and you see what sells is big GT sportscars, or light econoboxes. Can't fault the factories.

On mpg, I know a guy who gets 50+ mpg hwy in a turbo-D EF, and its FAST when you want it to be. So I know what you say about having both is true. And even in fatter softened up cars they have room to improve mileage, and they will now that they are being forced to. They should be able to come up with some good stuff. Its encouraging to see the current crop of mid size sedans at 35ish mpg tho, its a good start.

 

[dnmun]

"dropoff of savings per year is relatively negligible once you pass a certain point"

i hear people make this argument all the time about how the difference in mileage is not worth the investment unless the price of gas really does go up. i even extend it to incorporate the amortization of the energy cost to build the vehicle. but i am a true conservative and try to conserve vehicles from the past which are now extinct like the honda wagons. but i use mine as a pickup and camper and cat carrier, not for hauling clients to sell real estate.

it really comes down to whether you wanna be part of the future or part of the past. cng is also part of the future, not just EVs, but crude should not be wasted on cars, trucks and locomotives when other options are available imo. future generations should have the right to the resources too imo. building out these solutions is where we have to go in order to continue to have growth in employment, fact.

fat cars and fat trucks are the past now, the EPA has already determined that we will meet the california standards nationwide by 2016.

i personally think we should already be rationing gas. allowing people to trade their rations and have a free market in the trading of those rations. also let the guvment tax gas right up to the standards that everyone else in the western world has to meet, except places like iran and venezuela where tyrants can use cheap gas to stay in power, like they have done here too. why should we not pay $4-6/gallon in taxes to support the military and guvment financed road projects that allow the mobility we have?

we could consider value added taxes too like the europeans have based on size and displacement too in order to counteract the middle class view that heavy fat cars are more classy than nimble light cars with fwd.

everyday i see electric bikes, electric cars, and tons of hybrids here already. in fact this neighborhood may have the highest concentration of zaps and nevs outside of sun city. more insights/acre and you can find a hybrid on every block, no lie.

of course there are more commies here too, but remember they are not the enemy anymore. now the enemy is the guy lecturing about climate change, global warming, and peak oil. it doesn't do any good to kill them so the guns are useless anymore. amazing how the death of a 9 year old girl will prevent palin from becoming my momma grizzly. you guys in europe get these gun toting guys only occasionally but here it is all too common.

 

[John in CR]

My electric scooter costs me @ $0.008 per kilometer. My car $0.12 per kilometer. My SUV $0.14 per kilometer, my RV $0.28 pkm and my boat $0.38 pkm. As the RV costs $0.30 pkm when towing the boat, it seems the smartest idea is to never launch it, just tow it around?

This got my curious to see how much of a difference there is in fuel costs for various mileages. I threw together this spreadsheet if anyone's interested (see attached file). It takes $/gallon and miles driven per year (mpy) and determines the gallons per year (gpy), $ per year, $/mi and $/km for every integer mpg from 1 to 100, as well as the savings in $/year for each step, plus off to the side the savings in $/year, $/mi, and $/km between two user-definable mpg values.

It's interesting. The dropoff of savings per year is relatively negligible once you pass a certain point, that is a lot lower than I thought it would be. For example, purely in fuel costs, at current average US fuel costs (say, $3/gal), with my current ~10,000 mi/year driving habits, going from 40mpg to 50mpg would only save me $150/year...and going from 50 to 80 would only save me another $225/year. Compared to the difference between, say, 15 and 30 ($1,000/year), the difference in cost becomes relatively minor, especially when the cost of the new vehicle comes into play. For example, the 2010 Prius has a MSRP starting price of $22,800 vs the 2010 Corolla MSRP starting price of $15,600. They don't list the combined mileage figure for the Corrola, but going off strictly the spec values (yes, I know, real world values would probably be better, but the spec values are right there), the city/highway values are 51/48 and 28/35 respectively. That works out to a savings of probably between $483.19 and $232.14 per year, depending on driving style/environment/etc. Even if gas were to go up to $10/gal, that would only increase to between $1,610.64 and $773.81 per year, so even at $10/gal you would have to keep the Prius for at least about 4.5 years to break even. Personally, I run my vehicles into the ground (well, vehicle, I'm still on my first car; got it at ~130k, currently almost at 156k, planning on running till at least 200k), so 4.5 years is nothing to me in terms of vehicle life, but for your average American consumer that's a pretty long time.

Disclaimer: I'm not by any means saying that high mileage is pointless; I think every industry should try and be as efficient as possible. I just found the results interesting and thought some of you would too.

x88x,
You've touched on why I could care less whether my ebike is a hog at only 500mpg, because getting it to the range of 2000mpg that some of the guys who have only electric assist would save me less than $25/year. Compared to our minivan though, my bike has saved over $1k/yr and I don't put a lot of miles.

 

[PedalingBiped]

Back during the OPEC boycott in the 70's I worked out of hiring hall. We would sit there until a call for work came in. Alot of guys sitting around bs'ing.

One guy had just bought a Cadillac for very cheap. We gave him hell.

His defense was the price of the car versus the price of gas.
With his $200 car he could buy $1800 of gas for the same price as someone who bought a new $2000 car. Only then would the price of gas be meaningful.

So he rode around for a couple of years in a very comfortable ride, cheaply.

I went to Disneyland by car a couple of years ago. Friends asked me if I could afford the gas since it had just gone up. Even a 50 cent raise per gallon would just add a couple of hundred dollars. My total budget was $4000. So the price of gas was meaningless for a one shot trip.

We need higher mpg cars but no need to be knee jerk about it.

 

[x88x]

With his $200 car he could buy $1800 of gas for the same price as someone who bought a new $2000 car. Only then would the price of gas be meaningful.

Heheh, yup. Plus, with it being worth so little, I bet the insurance was dirt cheap.

 

[liveforphysics]

We need higher mpg cars but no need to be knee jerk about it.

What if you put it in this perspective.

Our average mpg is 22.4.

If we made it 44.8mpg (totally possible, look at europe), then we burn aproximately 10,000,000 barrels LESS oil each day.

Does burning 10,000,000 less barrels of oil each day seem worth while to you?

 

[neptronix]

Oh dear. This topic is so derailed.. business as usual in ES :lol:
I wish i had your budget, LFP.. cuz i'd be rockin essentially what you have. Been thinking about getting a CRX or Del sol for years now.

I think the Obama administration's raising of the CAFE in 2011+ is going to bring us some really cool cars. Notice that after 20 years of MPG stangancy we suddenly are seeing things like 30mpg hwy muscle cars, DI 4 cylinders motors that perform like v6's, b-car segment, etc..

Funny how that works!!!!

Hyundai's accent/veloster/elantra should be doing 40's highway, upper 20's city.
I personally am waiting for the Scion iQ to come out. It should average mid 30mpg. I think i'd be happy with that

 

[vanilla ice]

Oh dear. This topic is so derailed.. business as usual in ES :lol:

Well back on topic, I recently paid 3.50$ish here. Here's a bonus pic from back when it was really crazy.. I hope it doesn't get like that again any time soon! Paying over 5 for diesel sucked.