My new eBike shop: Structuring, building, and pricing. Reflections and criticisms please.

[marty]

I get only $0.10 per pound

You doing good. After the battery BBQ all ya left with is burnt steel. That would be called shredding. Appliances and all assortment of steel. See - Sheet Iron / Shearing / Cars: $170/GT. [A Net Ton is 2000 pounds of metal, while a Gross Ton is 2240 pounds] If I doing math correctly, that works out to 0.07589285714285714 cents per pound. Let say 8¢ a pound.

I usually go here.

Niagara Metals - Scrap Metal Recycling in Buffalo NY

Niagara Metals pays the highest prices for scrap metal in Buffalo and WNY. We buy you scrap aluminum, copper and much more!

niagarametals.com

WOW! just saw a pop up on home page. FREE LUNCH 4/22/25. Any one want to help me load the truck? Got a fire proof file cabinet. Looks like 1940? Hoping to get $150 or so for a truck load of steel and aluminum.

 

[riding_on]

In what approximate area are you getting such good service from government?

Throughout the entire United States, every citizen that isn't incarcerated gets excellent service from their government. If they get money from the gov't instead of giving it, then they're bordering on being criminals according to our current president.

Just how much help from Uncle Sam do people think they're entitled to? If you're not in jail, stop whining

 

[orcasprout]

Find a place to put them. Same place you store gasoline and propane. Soon as you get 1000 pounds. Get on the phone and try to sell.

Thank you everyone for weighing in. Battery BBQ is an idea that tempts us eh? I certainly want to enjoy pyrotechnics but the shrapnel aspect...meh.

Basically we're still where I started with this mini thread inside my business thread. ("TLDR: Help with recycling used eBike batteries!")

I'll get to 1000# but it'll be all summer.

Yes, I'm STILL storing them, IN MY GARAGE! I know know...sometimes I don't sleep, I gotta have a better solution. (Its called commercial real estate which I can't afford)

I'm gonna put em in a 50 gal drum or "job box" in the yard I think.

I worry about the summer temperatures. I'll bet the temps will exceed 100 degrees F and I'll have an "unplanned" battery BBQ.

 

[marty]

50 gal drum

Black painted drums will get hotter then light color painted drums.

Galvanized steel trash can won't get as heavy as a 55 gallon drum.

Painted steel drum might rust to nothing by the time ya figure out what to do with batteries.

 

[leffex]

Thank you everyone for weighing in. Battery BBQ is an idea that tempts us eh? I certainly want to enjoy pyrotechnics but the shrapnel aspect...meh.

Basically we're still where I started with this mini thread inside my business thread. ("TLDR: Help with recycling used eBike batteries!")

I'll get to 1000# but it'll be all summer.

Yes, I'm STILL storing them, IN MY GARAGE! I know know...sometimes I don't sleep, I gotta have a better solution. (Its called commercial real estate which I can't afford)

I'm gonna put em in a 50 gal drum or "job box" in the yard I think.

I worry about the summer temperatures. I'll bet the temps will exceed 100 degrees F and I'll have an "unplanned" battery BBQ.

Haha. Hard feelings. That can't be good for your heart. How is it all going on in the bike shop?

At our place we have a circardian low but I guess after vacation sales will increase again. This is the first year in many with a slowdown. I will crack a nut open that it isn't the case in your area right now.

No. Usually nothing will happend if batteries are stored on a shelf but one don't want to store unknown packs or handyman repaired packs with unknown parameters. Do you have any photos of them so we can help with evaluation and value?

To extract value from packs by recycling.
The recycling process starts by sorting out the most valuable packs. This one needs to be learned. Some packs can be easely repaired or parts of packs can be taken out leaving a filét of cells. These can also be re-sold later if stored and sorted to groups. There are always people looking for cheap cell to make storage units DIY. One even don't have to dissasemble fully but can let that go on to the customer.

So the packs themselves have value if one can repair them fast and easy, the plastic shells have value if one want to use them to build their own packs, some bms do have value depending on the situation (Bosch bms). Everything can be sold as spare parts. As the cells are taken out the rest can be shipped out cheaply. The spare part market is working especially very well in Sweden and sort of OK in the EU and I think it still has a lot of potential worldwide. Even though some are sold in the used private market they will still have value when sold - as a sale is a sale. The price just need to be right at the sweet spot where its gives value to the seller and the buyer.

 

[orcasprout]

Haha. Hard feelings. That can't be good for your heart. How is it all going on in the bike shop?

At our place we have a circardian low but I guess after vacation sales will increase again. This is the first year in many with a slowdown. I will crack a nut open that it isn't the case in your area right now.

No. Usually nothing will happend if batteries are stored on a shelf but one don't want to store unknown packs or handyman repaired packs with unknown parameters. Do you have any photos of them so we can help with evaluation and value?

To extract value from packs by recycling.
The recycling process starts by sorting out the most valuable packs. This one needs to be learned. Some packs can be easely repaired or parts of packs can be taken out leaving a filét of cells. These can also be re-sold later if stored and sorted to groups. There are always people looking for cheap cell to make storage units DIY. One even don't have to dissasemble fully but can let that go on to the customer.

So the packs themselves have value if one can repair them fast and easy, the plastic shells have value if one want to use them to build their own packs, some bms do have value depending on the situation (Bosch bms). Everything can be sold as spare parts. As the cells are taken out the rest can be shipped out cheaply. The spare part market is working especially very well in Sweden and sort of OK in the EU and I think it still has a lot of potential worldwide. Even though some are sold in the used private market they will still have value when sold - as a sale is a sale. The price just need to be right at the sweet spot where its gives value to the seller and the buyer

If I can't find a way to recycle these I will consider these angles. I receive calls all the time from people wanting me to repair old batteries. It's probably a profitable business but I'm not prepared (or knowledgable enough) to execute yet.

Anyone out there have experience with the used eBike/Scooter battery market?

Grin has a video out featuring Nomad Cycles (Portland, OR) and I'm a fan! I especially appreciated the price board. It helped a lot with my internal sense of cost. They charge $225/hr for "Internet eBike" labor. That makes a lot of sense and got me thinking about MY pricing. I've got tons and tons of poor people with a cheap internet bike that they used VERY heavily and now expect to repaired for almost free. I'm going to have to insist on getting fully compensated for this value. This will price a bunch of people out of this service. Frankly, I'm hoping to collect the broken stuff and repair/rebuild for a modest profit.

I'd love to be an analog of Nomad Cycles out here on the other side of the continent. Thank you Grin and Nomad!

 

[Cowardlyduck]

It's not worth it repairing batteries IMO. When they are properly broken, typically it's either bad BMS or bad cell group/s. If it's a BMS, not too hard/time consuming....if it's a bad cell group it's a time consuming nightmare. If you your careful and charge anything half decent for your time, the time taken to troubleshoot and strip down alone is typically worth half the cost of a new pack.
Then you've got the risk of damaging adjacent cells (have you ever tried removing properly welded nickel strips), and the ultimate mix of new/old cells causing further instability.

Add in the cost of replacement cells and/or BMS, as well as other miscellaneous things like new, nickel, heatshrink, padding, etc. and it simply isn't worth it most of the time.
It didn't used to be like this, but now days, the biggest cost of a battery is the labour, not the parts. That change now means it simply isn't worth repairing large ebike battery packs any more.

Just my 2c.

Cheers

 

[amberwolf]

And...based on threads here and elsewhere, it's rarely a BMS, unless there was environmental intrusion damage, in which case the cells or interconnects are probably also compromised, or the pack was abused such that the BMS FETs failed from overheating, overcurrent, overvoltage from being connected in series with other packs, etc, in which case the cells are probably also compromised from the BMS being unable to protect them....

Almost always, it is the cells themselves, or their interconnects (whcih can then lead to cell problems from fewer cells having to handle the loads).

 

[leffex]

If I can't find a way to recycle these I will consider these angles. I receive calls all the time from people wanting me to repair old batteries. It's probably a profitable business but I'm not prepared (or knowledgable enough) to execute yet.

Anyone out there have experience with the used eBike/Scooter battery market?

Grin has a video out featuring Nomad Cycles (Portland, OR) and I'm a fan! I especially appreciated the price board. It helped a lot with my internal sense of cost. They charge $225/hr for "Internet eBike" labor. That makes a lot of sense and got me thinking about MY pricing. I've got tons and tons of poor people with a cheap internet bike that they used VERY heavily and now expect to repaired for almost free. I'm going to have to insist on getting fully compensated for this value. This will price a bunch of people out of this service. Frankly, I'm hoping to collect the broken stuff and repair/rebuild for a modest profit.

I'd love to be an analog of Nomad Cycles out here on the other side of the continent. Thank you Grin and Nomad!

Let us know how things are if you have a spare minute

Looking forward to your reply... for myself I have tried to loggin but failed this special day.

I'm on the job hunt and also working on my own idéas regarding battery repairs still. I have the tools so when the right time comes I'll send in the papers and start a business. In 1,5-2 years I'll work part time with battery repairs and the rest at another job.

Communication is key for success

 

[orcasprout]

Let us know how things are if you have a spare minute

Hi Leffix et al,

I've been MIA as I've had my head down building this business. I just celebrated my 4th birthday. It is a whirlwind of people, all anxious to have their eBike, Scooter, Trike, Mobility scooter, etc repaired. I'm very busy. The demand for service on this stuff is infinite, I'm but one guy (with a couple of part-time helpers), and the profit margin is very slim. The low cost of what's out there is a real market shaper.

Core demographic clients:

-Middle to High-school adolescent boy with mom (dad sometimes) but it's mostly always mom.
These are middle/upper class boys (some as young as 10!) riding on a $600 internet 20x4.0 moped on city streets with their friends. Mom is clueless, Dad knows better but doesn't say anything, the boy's friends inevitably cajole him into a bigger jump. The rear brake lever has it's motor cut-off wire sliced. This is so he can drag the brake against the motor while doing wheelies. No helmet while wearing crocks! ER trauma season in full effect. I'm really struggling with the ethics and policy here.

-Very low income individuals who bought cheap internet stuff, beat the piss outta it, and need it for work tomorrow. They have $20 to their name. The tires are bald and the backing plate of the brake pad is knife sharp from rubbing on the disc. Some of them say, "please just fix the flat tire, I'll use my feet to stop".

-75 retired man. He's determined to not succumb to age, his recent crash notwithstanding. His slow moving cancer is a motivation and hinderance

-Mid 20s men with their 72V 50A dual-motor stand up scooter with a 30Ah battery. It also has the piss beat out of it and is always a nightmare. They are still making payments on it.

-and finally, and I'll bet some people can relate, the eccentric! That guy who is BRILLIANT and completely bonkers. This LEV he's engineered in his head, and partially put together, is just the dream that captivates him and boy does he fixate on it. He didn't realize how parched he was for LEV's! I believe I fall into this category.

-- in other news--

I got served for my first lawsuit. Yea! I have insurance and will proceed. This IS the test for my business to pass at this point, We'll see if my LLC will survive. I've been careful to separate the books. I've got a big waiver and have standardized and formalized processes. We'll see.

-- in other news--

NJ has passed the strictest eBike laws in the nation and, being right on the border, some NJ clients have come to me. One wanted a Grin system that was NJ legal (PAS up to 20mph only) and others are looking to sell their non-legal bikes. I believe it's just a matter of time for PA to enact something as well.
------
I'm grateful to be alive and functioning. It's a privilege and honor to help people. I want to help everyone and I know that is very problematic. I have yet to create a decent profit model but perhaps, if I'm able to keep going, I will develop the niche that is repeatable and scaleable.

Endless Sphere, thank you for being here! Cheers!