GT i-drive 2.0 Build

[Alan B]

I think Greg has the right idea. Have one of each, and hopefully each day at least one is running to make the commute to work. Daily commuting is quite different from occasional fun runs. Lots of folks do daily commuting with hubmotors. Millions of folks. How many folks do daily commuting with RC motors? Just the noise and appearance draw a lot of attention, not stealthy at all. How reliable are they?? But those RC motors look like a LOT of fun! One of each!!

 

[flyinmonkie]

Just because you don't use a hub motor, doesn't mean you use an RC motor. I commute on a non hub drive bike that is not an RC motor bike. I use a brushed curie motor and there are lots of option in brushless as well. Even quite high power stuff that uses similar controllers to the hub motors. The appeal of the RC motors and controllers is the small size and light weight.

I have never had a pant leg caught in a chain. I only fried a motor when it was severely overvolted (happens to hubs all the time). And I have not fried a controller on my current bike. It makes some noise, but it is all motor noise and no chain noise. It sounds similar to all the videos of hub motors I have seen. It didn't look any less stealth than Greg's bike or most hubs, in my mind. Batteries and closed in triangles aren't as stealth as some might think.

A hub motor would not fair well in my town commuting, unless well overvolted. It is quite hilly and being able to use my gears for the motor keeps everything happy. From my experience and spending most of my time in the non-hub section, I would say you could build a very reliable non hub bike, RC or otherwise, to commute with. The RC version will be expensive to set up, but it can be done.

Greg, If you want to do that 5 footer then I think you are going to have to go non hub to keep from exploding motors and get axles that can take it.

Clay

 

[amberwolf]

Heck, you can even use a hubmotor as a middrive. It's already been done a bunch of times, including the StokeMonkey. I'm planning it on mine, too.

 

[GCinDC]

jb welding the halls into place. that tape was on just to hold the hall in place for testing (no, alan, i don't have the tester, and i think i'd have to put the wheel back together anyway for that):
[youtube]W07dkydn0Oc[/youtube]
stuff says good to 600F. so hopefully it doesn't end up like the black shrink tube that got vaporized. yes, veloman, that's all melted internal stuff. a tiny bit of water might get in my hub via the bearings, since they show some rust, but i'm sure the water doesn't stay in, considering the heat...

re RC vs HUB:
i absolutely love the debate going on! thanks for all your comments and opinions. it's like what i hear in my head constantly, but much better.

i want a commuter "with benefits". :lol:

might have to be two bikes, at least if i want one that can perform like this offroad:
[youtube]i8R-AK1qAmA[/youtube]

but that won't survive the winter here. if you don't remember, wait till you see the amount of salt that goes down on the streets in DC (at the mere threat of snow). the salt has destroyed the spokes on several wheels. so an exposed RC motor might not be happy about that.

 

[Whiplash]

You could try an astro style motor in a drive like mine with a heat sink/cover to protect and seal it from the elements..?

 

[Lenk42602]

greg,

there' no doubt you would destroy that E-go rc kit with our east coast salty winters. kaput.

key consideration in that video is that the batteries aren't on the bike. The only added weight to ther rigs is the rc drive itself.

After building the PIG, I really wanted my next endeavour to be an RC - lightest weight possible driving through the bikes gearing? Sweet. Thinking that I could pick up one of Whip's boxes when done, sort the crank & freewheeling issues, and get it together. Think is, the guys with working bikes - check out their build logs - 50 - 60 + pages of designing, discussing, building, tweaking......

Since I have a pack en route from Cell man, I also picked up another hub motor - I decided to just go with a geared mac for the salty slush this winter, utilizing the extra parts from the former set up that my 5303 was on. Still a hub motor, less robust than the 5303, but total weight s about 10 pounds. If I keep it withn the realm of reasonable power, it should be a nice balance of light-er weight, more bicycle like riding...

While being maintenance free (for most normal folks), those hub motors are just not optimal for leaving the ground in any way. Certainly not the Mac I just picked up....

Len

 

[knoxie]

No you will just have to worry about chain noise, sprocket wear, controllers blowing..and more controllers blowing, getting your trousers caught in the drive train, Greg is abusing his motors to the max here its no surprise he has shaken a hall loose, Greg I would stick with what you got, I havent seen one RC motor setup that I would take over a decent hub motor rig yet even the great HAL on the podcast admits the RC motor is not an ideal solution and he should know, for stealth and commuting the Hub motor is the best choice, I mean RC motor drives are unreliable enough without throwing a harsh commuting DC winter in to the mix as well.

I have 550 miles of commuting in fairly hot weather and pouring rain all over this hilly city and I have never blown a controller. I have only gotten my pants caught in the chain once

If you honestly would rather have a boat-anchor frock bike instead of the Dogati or Recumpence's yellow trike, I question your ability to think rationally

I am not against chain driven setups as I have run many different ones over the years including the Currie, my Lemco powered geared bike but ditched them all in favour of the simplicity of the hub motor, there is a very good reason they out number chain driven systems put simply its the best compromise thats it, each system has its pros and cons, my preference is the total simplicity of a hub motor, great power, no noise, no maintenance, RC motors are great for power there is no doubt but they are not any more efficient because of the high rpms and low speed high currents which is normally the death of the controllers, I think Matts work is amazing no doubt about it but I would still take a hub motor because I dont need or want that kind of power in a push bike and herein lies the problem people want to start making the same power as small motorbikes using bike components, we are moving far away from power assist here and in to the realms of electric motorcycles, if folks were sensible and stuck with up to 2KW power limits pretty much any hub motor off the shelf would do the job and it would be cheaper than an RC system (matts gear etc), be very reliable, have no maintenance, it would be silent, its complete stealth.

I understand folks wanting to play with it though, my brief mess about with DCs RC system didnt tempt me and put me off to be honest as it did Deec who has ditched it all and gone to a HUB that said I still have the Lemco and would love to bolt that back in to make an off road bike, direct drive, no peddles just for ragging about and to justify the original cost of the motor. I do like some RC systems particularly AJS bike with the Thud tranny that is pretty exceptional but the guy needs the power and i'd bet he will admit that its not a cheap solution and its still early days as far as reliability goes dont think any kind of money would make let a hub motor go near his bike mind you :lol: , Anyway this has hijacked the thread long enough, back to the epoxy

 

[GCinDC]

Anyway this has hijacked the thread long enough, back to the epoxy

make sure to get some oxygen after that knoxie. but this is not a hijack. this is exactly what i'm focussed on right now. i should start another thread perhaps for the future build, but i'm not sure what to call it...

 

[GCinDC]

oh yeah, forgot to mention that during repairs this weekend, i noticed also that:
- one spoke is broken, right at the base of the nipple, but it's still long enough to stay in place.
- my 'new' (Jan 10) headset is loose again. some play in the steer tube, front to back.

 

[Alan B]

Maybe I'm nuts, but I'm considering upgrading my 9C 6x10 to a Clyte HT3525. One modelling run showed that on a 15% gradient it would have twice the speed, and keep it away from stalling out. The 9C is great but runs out of torque on the steep stuff in a 26" wheel. The new Clytes seem to be a bit better without too much weight penalty. They also will use my existing power system and controller, just a drop-in change.

Having two hubmotors laced and ready to go seems like a good idea anyway, commuters need a spare so repairs don't have to be rushed.

But I'm not going to get any air, at least not intentionally, so Greg's needs are slightly different. Perhaps a hubmotor but not in the wheel is the right compromise. Pretty weatherproof but isolated from the shock, and makes changing wheels/tires much easier. Or go to a moped rim/tire on the hubmotor to toughen it up to handle the drops.

The RC looks great but every one turns out to be a major project and there aren't any good controllers yet.

 

[veloman]

How much is that EGO kit? Looks like a good setup, perhaps you could mount some mud shields that keep it clean/dry but still allow it to cool (shouldn't be too bad in northern climates).

 

[full-throttle]

How much is that EGO kit?

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=23244&start=15#p355678

 

[Lenk42602]

greg,

it just struck me. BUY A FREAKING STEALTH BOMBER! as much as you ride, it would be a turn key solution, no fuss, no muss.

Do it. You must. I can't. You should.

You deserve it. You need it.

get it.

get the stealth bomber.

it is the only logical choice.

get the bike.

get it.


Len

 

[flyinmonkie]

I don't think RC and other non-hub drives get a fair representation here. Most of the builders of non-hub drives that post are trying to push the limit of what all the components can handle. If you look at the hub motor guys doing the same thing, you will see just as many failures on every component.

There are a lot of hub commuters posting, but very few RC or non-hub drive commuters posting. Matt says he has many happy customers with virtually bolt on kits that have no problems with their bikes at all. Build to what you need or just above and you will be fine no matter what system you use.

If you go RC it will cost more. If you use one of the many other non-hub drives it may not be much more than a high powered hub set up. I have nothing against hubs and they meet a large portion of the market. But they don't suit everyone and you don't have to compromise.

Greg, your ridding style seems to be pushing the physical limits of a hub motor (not the electrical). A non-hub drive seems more suited in my mind. What are you worried about with the salt on the road? You can get sealed motors for a non-hub setup. I wouldn't think the drive chain wouldn't fair much worse than you pedal chain. Clean it often and keep it lubed.

2 bikes may just be the answer for you though. Either a winter and a summer, or a commuter and a jump bike. Either way, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Clay

 

[GCinDC]

awesome comments. no time this morning to respond meaningfully, but:

@Len: the fighter yes, the bomber no (too heavy). but i'm waiting to see how your homemade stealth runs w/ new batts - we need another name than PIG (or well, you may feel comfortable calling her that, but I dare not... :lol: )

@clay: yeah, the showstoppers for non-hub are noise and water/saline resistance... otherwise i'm game. i've been talking to Matt by the way, and that i wouldn't be sorry w/ such a solution, but there's still the matter of the bike, and then the large pricetag to swallow...

odds & ends from yesterday's commute, lower your volume, nothing but noise on the soundtrack:
[youtube]EYr7YLqfBFM[/youtube]
show notes: in addition to typical evasive maneuvers, this commute includes the march of the penguins (AUSAconvention near work), return commute and a surprise visit with my family in Rock Creek Woods - I had to work but most had off as it was Columbus Day...

ps. walked by the convention at lunchtime and there was a WAR in front of the BAE exhibit between TAN and PINK:


pps. wow, looks like they BAE is working on hybrid tanks like this one to save the enviroment no doubt.

 

[deecanio]

hehehe, the hub/non hub rears its head again.
There always going to be an argument for both, but the truth is neither really deliver what greg is actually after imo.
Im with a hub again for so many reasons i wont bother to list them, but essentially it wins over an rc alternative by doing just a bit more right than wrong (for me) rather than being "better", cheaper maybe
It's a tricky one, but tbh G, you'll have to decide whats most important because there simply isn't a bike out there that can do it all.

D

 

[GCinDC]

too late. i ordered it:

just kidding! i didn't!

but my how easy it would be!!

and if i could get it delivered to the garage, i could swap it out with mine and the wife might not notice... :lol:

30 mph tho? 75lbs is fine tho! if i could only get it w/o the batts & controller... that's exactly what i want!

 

[amberwolf]

What about a frame-mounted hub driving either rear wheel directly or driving the full regular drivetrain?

That would get you a weather-protected motor that wouldnt' have any more reliability problems driving the wheel than the pedals do, and wouldn't be in the wheel, so that the shocks could perform better and the wheel would receive less damage than they do from the unsprung weight of a hub in the wheel.

Nothing different is needed controller-wise, or with the rest of the system; you're simply moving the motor itself to a "better" location (for your purposes).


Best compromise I can think of.

 

[Alan B]

The problem with the RC motor for Greg would be loss of stealth. They would hear him coming two blocks away. That would really change things, and probably not for the better.

Does the Stealth qualify for all those energy saving tax credits? It should!!!

 

[chroot]

Stealth bomber is not qualify for tax credits unless you are going get a Zero motorcycle will qualify for the tax credits. (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/)

 

[fizzit]

The problem with the RC motor for Greg would be loss of stealth. They would hear him coming two blocks away. That would really change things, and probably not for the better.

Does the Stealth qualify for all those energy saving tax credits? It should!!!

He wears a full-face helmet and goes 40mph... that's stealth? RC drives aren't that much louder than background noise in the city, especially if you opt for a belt on the first stage.

 

[flyinmonkie]

The problem with the RC motor for Greg would be loss of stealth. They would hear him coming two blocks away. That would really change things, and probably not for the better.

Does the Stealth qualify for all those energy saving tax credits? It should!!!

He wears a full-face helmet and goes 40mph... that's stealth? RC drives aren't that much louder than background noise in the city, especially if you opt for a belt on the first stage.

Neither is having the triangle wrapped up with wires poking out the side. I'm surprised you haven't had more trouble with the police considering your in DC Greg.

There are plenty of options other than and RC motor that are the same volume as a hub motor. Chains aren't loud if aligned properly. Besides, the only people that will here the motor will be the ones he goes by on the side walk, usually at low speed anyway.

The stealth bomber and fighter are anything but stealth. They are called that because they look the the airplanes. Most people would think you are riding a motocross style bike on the sidewalk.

Just to confuse you more Greg, ha ha.

Clay

 

[Alan B]

He wears a full-face helmet and goes 40mph... that's stealth? RC drives aren't that much louder than background noise in the city, especially if you opt for a belt on the first stage.

The shrill RC whine may disappear in the wind noise for the rider, but it carries a long way to pedestrians, penetrating through the city noises. It draws their attention.

 

[Lenk42602]

get the setalth bomber!

get the stealth bomber!


dude. get a stealth bomber.

greg, I don't know if you ever looked at Timma's builds, but he had his specialized fsr custom aluminum frame up in the for sale section a while ago. its an RC drive utilizing a cyclone set-up. very very clean adn robably about aas weatherprooof as you are going to find. you might want to take a look and see if its still for sale

len

 

[gwhy!1]

Ok this is based on only 3 years experience of (seriously) messing around with e-bikes, Hub motors should only be for the roads (way to heavy for serious off road stuff and to fragile ) The cost of a hub setup is far more than my rc setups and I dont know why peeps bang on about it, rc setups are a a bit more noisy but it really don't bother me or the people that I have passed (nobody looks to see what the noise is). I have never had a controller fail whilst out on any of my bikes ( hub or RC ) I have only had minor mechanical problems which been mainly due to the bike components not being upto the job of a 3.5kw system. The hub motor set-ups that I have, have been very reliable ( this is mainly due to never taking them off road I'm Sure). Far to many people who dable with rc setups aim to high and this leads to failure and gives RC setups a bad press.