Help&Advice is needed on my 1st E-MTB project.

[Scorefield]

Greetings.

There are so many different options to choose from, it's kind of difficult to pick the right one.

Could any of you dear members help me whit some info, because I'm just new to this e-biking

Looking for a kit that i wanted to put on a downhill mountain bike, and I prefer a good and solid quality,
The top speed is not that important for me, because I rather like to have a better acceleration, if its doable.
Like 35-40mph/50-60kmh and whit a rear hub would be nice, but it has to be a good quality, so it don't break due to some kind of cheap aluminium inside...

Would like to have something like it's showed in this vid.
Posted in 2007 and old tech, ill guess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6TUyS0fB58

I live in Denmark, and have just read that Heinzmann Kits are the BMW's in the electric biking world.
Should I buy my Kit from them as a BMW would just be fine for me, or is it just bs and I can get something better.

Thanks in advance and wish you all best regards.
Hope this project is doable, and I get it all right.

 

[dogman dan]

The heinzmann I owned, a 24v one, went a whopping 13 mph, and overvolted to 36v, went about 18 mph. Had the torque though. The heinsmann is old tech, brushed motors that tend to run hot, so they can't be run at higher voltages. The video shows a crystalyte 5000 series motor. Those can be run at 72 volts.

The three ways to get what you want are crystalyte 5300 series motor, a high volt controller, and a hugely expensive battery to supply the power, a gear driven motor, such as the cyclone, or a BMC gearmotor. The BMC is supposed to be offering a very powerful model soon that may have the tourqe of the heinsmann and the speed similar to the direct drive crystalyte motor. Any of these motors is going to need higher voltage than the usual 36 0r 48, and high quality batteries to go that fast, for very far. Don't be suprised if you spend $3000 or more. You definitely need a rear drive, since too much power on a front hub can be dangerous. I love front hubs myself, but at 700 watts, not 2400. The easiest way may be the clyte motor, and the source is ebikes-ca. Batteries up to the task of providing 60 amps of 72v power to one of these motors is pretty much a build it yourself deal still. 48v is still pretty peppy, and in that voltage there are more easy options.

 

[pwbset]

crystalyte 5300 series motor...and a hugely expensive battery to supply the power

That's not so true anymore. I'm running a 5 series motor on a single Bosch "36v" fatpack right now that cost me $45. Sure I only get a couple miles out of it, but the price is right and it gets me to town and back until my main pack is ready. Thanks to EV Components you can now get a 48v10ah Headway pack for $350 that delivers 60a sustained... same price as Ping who can only deliver 2C and who's packs are way harder to maintain/fix if a cell goes bad. I guess I just saying these days there are very cheap options to run a 5 series very happily. That EV Components Headway pack is a "game changer" in my opinion. Hope they can fulfill on it.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Welcome to the forum.

What you want is possable. Not all that complicated, But not for beginners exactly, and not avalable in kit form.


Dogman's right, thats a 530X Crystalyte in the first video (or something very close to it) and what its doing isn't that hard. spinning up a tire with no weight on slippery brick. I can do the same with a 4012 at 55 volts. That part is easy.


Heinzmann are great, the way vintage split window VW bug is great. Old german engineering, but nothing compares to it. Its not exactly powerfull, just well made.

 

[Anonymous]

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[dogman dan]

I think 40 mph for any length of time is still a bit costly. Just 32 headway cells for a 72v pack is no small chunk of change. Plus whatever it takes to make it into a functioning pack with a way to charge it. Just trying to let him know that 4, 12 ah slas doesn't get him what he wants. As a newcomer, he may not realize how the ante goes up fast for speeds above the 25-30 mph zone. The latest pingbatteries might do it, but he still only gets 48v with those. If 30 mph on the flat would satisfy him then the solutions for battery get much cheaper as you point out. I think he's looking for a lot more performance than a single bosh fatpack provides. Once he chooses a motor he can get down to deciding how much to spend making the rubber fly off the tire.

I think the process goes like this, Decide what you want in performance, pick a motor and controller voltage that can do that, Then see what is left in the wallet for the battery to run it. You can always use sla's for awhile at first, then upgrade later. One nice thing about sla's is you can play with different voltages for small money. `

 

[Scorefield]

Been studying some of those motors, and I'm still unsure what to pick but trying my best whit my noobishness and hope some of you have a better knowledge and could give a advice.

Crystalyte x5304 x5305 or x5306 : Think the x5306 would be the best as it is the newest in the x5 line.?
BMC V3 : Do sound nice, its the newest on market ad should be the best, ill guess.?
Phoenix Brute based on Crystalyte 5305 : Sounds like a middle option, which could be enjoyable.?
Black Lightning 1000W : Performance did looked good, but its too new to be good ill guess.?
Cyclone motors : didn't read much about it, but think its not that good as Crystalyte.?

Whit a Digital System 72V 48A Controller With 18pcs Mosfets,(irfb4110 from Mexico and not china.?)
I'm totally lost on controllers atm but think ill will manage them soon.

Didn't made it to the batteries yet, as I got surprised by..the Currie Technology motor whit 36v 1000w and a Controller whit 36V 100A like its showed on this vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Fs6SAJbWs
This got me curios on the performance/quality/weight against a rear hub motor and which one would be better.?

This was just some thoughts which I really don't have much of a clue on, and apologize if all this sounds like everyday rubbish to you all, but help and advice is all ways welcome which would help me whit my e-mtb.

Best regards.
Mr.Green :wink:

 

[dogman dan]

I'm out on a limb here since I haven't owned any of these things myself. But I think these generalizations are true.

For flat out speed, the 5304 will shine, especially at 72v. Then you have the problem of how to carry that much battery, as well as the cost. Pretty soon bikes can get real back heavy. A 5304 winding will have a higher top speed, a 5306 will have a lower top speed, but operate better at lower speeds than a 5304. For dirt bikes, a smaller wheel on this motor helps gain torqe.

For an easy trip up the hill for another downhill run, the gearmotors may be the better option. They are super torquey, and a 48v setup with a 20 amp controller may be all you need to motor up some steep trails for another blast back down.

It just depends on how the bike will be used which is best. I tend to lean towards a gearmotor myself since the trails in my town are so rocky and rough that speeds above 15 mph are pretty suicidal. I was very happy with my heinzmann at 36v climbing steep ass rocky hills for about 30 minuites, till the smoke came out of it. I want to try again with a BMC 600 watt, since that is all the performance I need, and carrying less battery means a nicer ride with less weight on the bike while still having enough range for a longish ride. This motor should run fine on less expensive and heavy lifepo4 battery like a pingbattery 48v 15 ah.

 

[Scorefield]

Thanks for a little knowledge, that's awesome...

Came to this conclusion that I should pick one of those 2 rear hub motors, which should help me in my project.
Crystalyte x5306.
BMC V3

By reading a little here on this forum, think most will go for the Crystalyte but hows the new
BMC V3 compared to the x5306.?

Those motors are great, until I see this evil project which had some noticeable torque on this bike.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtcTYmI5tfA&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2sSgJ3QUDQ&feature=channel

Can see a difference on price between a 36/48 volt 1000 watt electric scooter motor compared to a rear hub motor, but other then that i don't have the knowledge on the performance/quality/durability...

The price would still be cheaper by buying 2 electric scooter motors as they only cost like $100 each.

Now I'm wondering how good are those 2 electric scooter motors compared to a rear hub motor like x5306 or BMC V3.?

 

[Drunkskunk]

Do you have a budget in mind?
Are you good with electronics and fabrication?
How do you plan to use the bike?
Do you have any preconcieved notion as to the preformance you should get from an Ebike?



We can speculate on whats best, but everyone will have a diffrent answer.
I chose to shed weight at the loss of some power and used a heavier DH bike I built the bike for stealth and to augment my riding. I can still outrun mopeds when I want to, but I cruise at bicycle speeds, and can carry the bike up stairs if I need to. That fits my definition of best.
Others here strap the biggest chain drive motor and battery onto the strongest bike possable and run heavy lead acid batteries, they call it best. Still others use RC motors topping out at over 14 horsepower, and call it best.

 

[dogman dan]

Exactly! Best for me would be lots of tourqe while still running on my same old 36v pingbattery. I might be plenty happy with the bmc 400 watt version since all I want is to not blow a lung out my face trying to climb the local trails. They are like rock crawler territory, short sections of 25 degree(not percent, degree) slickrock up and down some rocky gullies. So lots of torque at 3 mph is what I would call best. 10 mph on this trail can fold a wheel like a taco.

But a lot of stuff I see on you tube would be great for a 5306. Those trails are designed for 30 mph or more going down them. It would be real fun to ride em 30 mph up too! It just depends on what there is to ride localy.

 

[morph999]

the 5303 at 48v might be enough for him. Electricrider.com says that the 5303 goes 35 mph at 48v. Patriot who also has a 5303 said his went 40 mph at 48v.

 

[morph999]

the 5306 will give you good torque but probably limit you to 25 mph. The 5304 goes 30 mph easily.

 

[swbluto]

the 5303 at 48v might be enough for him. Electricrider.com says that the 5303 goes 35 mph at 48v. Patriot who also has a 5303 said his went 40 mph at 48v.

My simulator supports the 5303 35 mph notion at 48volts on flatland with a 35 amp controller and something at least as good as headways. With the 35 amp controller, it appears it'd take about 20 seconds to get to "top speed". With a 50 amp controller, it appears it'd take about 14 seconds to get to "top speed" (from a stop). With a 100 amp controller, it appears it'd take about 11 seconds. The greater acceleration means more torque.

 

[Scorefield]

Got surprised that most people that i have seen on youtube whit a e-bike are actually members of this forum *salut to you all*

Thanks for all those advices, been reading a little about those motors now and something tells me that I should stick too a small electric motor as it will give more power compared to a rear hub motor, I'm might be wrong as I'm new too this e-biking so please advice me if its not correct.

Noticed the use of the currie 36v 1000w, two Astro 8120's and someone els did mention a Astro 3220, while seeing a little of the Scorpion motor and some others motors.
So my reading keeps on going until I learn a little more about all those motors which can take a while if a post have 21 pages etc.

Got any knowledge then please share it, other then that...have a nice day and safe travels.

 

[swbluto]

Got surprised that most people that i have seen on youtube whit a e-bike are actually members of this forum *salut to you all*

Thanks for all those advices, been reading a little about those motors now and something tells me that I should stick too a small electric motor as it will give more power compared to a rear hub motor, I'm might be wrong as I'm new too this e-biking so please advice me if its not correct.

Noticed the use of the currie 36v 1000w, two Astro 8120's and someone els did mention a Astro 3220, while seeing a little of the Scorpion motor and some others motors.
So my reading keeps on going until I learn a little more about all those motors which can take a while if a post have 21 pages etc.

Got any knowledge then please share it, other then that...have a nice day and safe travels.

If you have a specific question, it's often best to use the "search function" to see if the topic has been discussed to the degree that satisfies your question and if it hasn't, just ask. There's too much information that's been generated already that it's kind of unrealistic to read of all of it first, as a lot of it's conceptual echoes and hearsay and people here are pretty good at answering your questions and helping out the n00bs. The fact is, many of us are still n00bs when it comes to R/C technology!