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Henry111's free tech support thread

I was able to burp the motor yesterday buy touching 2 throttle wires together. It would move the bike an inch forward and stop. I did not know how the throttle was connected so the wires were random, but I tested the throttle with a 9V battery it seems fine so now I know whats gnd, +5V and signal.

I too can not get my motor to start, so it might be a symptom of a bad hall, but then why did the motor burp.

I will try to spin the motor and see if it works that way. I hope its just a bad hall, or a popped out hall.
I got the MXUS 3000W V2 Direct Drive motor, barely ridden it at most maybe 50km at most last year.

Very confusing, but this info you guys laid out is good info, so a bump in the thread and a save to my bookmarks.












http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/HallSensorTestingFinal.pdf
 
I had a muxus 3,000 and it chugg chugg, but went forward a bit. The halls checked out and replaced bearing. Just a head scratcher. It was found to have where the winding are tried together was poorly solder and had been shorting out. Resolder group and works.
 
I have a 5000W QS hub motor from a scooter which has a "miss" every rotation, which is a dead spot in the right position, does that sound like a hall also? I'll have to try the test procedure some time.
 
Scottydog - The testing is quite easy, whether its the halls or mosfets.
999 - Yeah I did solder new phase wires but they are heat shrunk to avoid them shorting out.

I haven't done much testing since doing the hall and mosfet testing. In the back of my mind I think maybe I scratched the winding wire and perhaps its shorting out that way. I dont see any obvious gouges or nicks as I was very careful. That is on my mxus motor, on my BMC motor I know I have a few light knicks on the winding trying to get some epoxy off. That BMC motor is a ways away from being finished, its not a priority like the mxus motor is.
 
I'm looking for somebody in the Los Angeles area who is experienced in working on Lithium Ion batteries.
I think it would be less expensive to hire someone than cost or returning batteries to China, which cannot always be done.
If batteries need BMSs we can order them. Bad cells???
These would be our own batteries that we mount on our bikes at http://www.lbelectricbikes.com in Long Beach, CA. However, we receive many calls from owners of other brands who have battery problem. Since, we do NOT repair batteries we would send those potential customers to whowever works with us.
The batteries in questions are 36V/14Ah. See attached photos.
 

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We are looking for somebody in the Los Angeles area who is experienced in working on Lithium Ion batteries.
I think it would be less expensive to hire someone than cost of returning batteries to China, which cannot always be done.
If batteries need BMSs we can order them. Bad cells???
These would be our own batteries that we mount on our bikes at http://www.lbelectricbikes.com in Long Beach, CA. However, we receive many calls from owners of other brands who have battery problem. Since, we do NOT repair batteries we would refer those potential customers to whomwever works with us.
The batteries in questions are 36V/14Ah. See attached photos.
 

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Does anyone know of an instruction manual for repairing lithium batteries.
We have been looking for someone in the Los Angeles area to repair our lithiums, but no luck, so we'll just have to learn to do it ourselves. These 36V/14Ah batteres go on on our bikes at http://www.lbelectricbikes.com
 

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they are standard chinese packs. what is wrong with them?
 
flippy said:
they are standard chinese packs. what is wrong with them?

Flippy, to find out what is wrong with them is what we need a battery tech guy OR a manual for.
Various problems:
Low mileage before running out of juice.
Wont take a charge.
More often then not it is the BMS, which we CAN get from the Chinese supplier.
But how do we test the BMS?
How do we replace it?
How do we test for bad cells?
These things can not be taught without photos and step-by-step instructions or done by somebody who really knows what in the hell he is doing. I'm surprised that nobody has written such a manual. If I ever learn how to do this I will write a photo illustrated manual and SELL it to people like me.
 
Henry it has to do with the liability nobody likes chopping out a section of parallel cells to solder and replace them in a pack that might not have gaskets on the positive ends and accept there are possibilities of Fire. Use abused . I saying repairing a pack for myself is one thing. Repairing a pack for rental is another. A lot of unknowns.
 
Well, I PM'd you, and you never got back to me.

I'm not located in LA (rural Idaho), but I'm set up for hazmat shipping, so I'd be able to handle the shipping aspects. I regularly rebuild 18650 based packs for BionX systems, and have worked with other packs as well. I'm quite happy to build custom testing gear, if you have a need for it, and I'm fully equipped with spot welders, power supplies, capacity testers, and the like for pack building/repair. Fair warning, I only will build with brand new, OEM 18650s, and I greatly prefer to source them myself.

> Low mileage before running out of juice.

Often, this is just bad cells. Sometimes the BMS won't let the pack fully charge, but the usual reason is that one parallel group is just crappy and hits low voltage cutout early. The BMS, correctly, cuts the pack off entirely at this point.

> Wont take a charge.

Won't charge at all, or won't charge fully? Won't charge at all is probably the BMS being fried and not allowing current through. If it won't charge fully, it's possible one group is hitting high voltage cutoff early and the pack is only able to charge at the rate of the bleeding resistors. It's usually the fault of, again, a bad bank of cells, though it could be the BMS getting weird. A voltmeter should help you determine the actual state of the pack, and if the pack looks reasonable, suspect the BMS.

> More often then not it is the BMS, which we CAN get from the Chinese supplier.

That's good. It's a whole lot easier when you can source replacement parts.

> But how do we test the BMS?

Examining the behavior of the pack when things are suspect is a good start. Stick a voltmeter on each parallel group and see what they're doing. If something is really off with one group, it's probably a bad parallel group, but if the groups look good, suspect the BMS.

An alternative is to build a test rig for a specific BMS that allows the BMS to be exercised across a range of situations, and verify that it behaves properly. A large Arduino could easily drive this type of test equipment for comprehensive BMS tests.

> How do we replace it?

Ideally, the balance leads are socketed, so that's easy, and the main power leads are soldered, which is easy enough to deal with. How are they attached that this is a question?

> How do we test for bad cells?

If you're using quality 18650s (which is anything but a given with packs from China), "bad cells" are rare. You should only be seeing long term degradation of the whole pack capacity over time instead of individual cells going bad. Testing for individual cells going bad in a pack is hard - you have to narrow it down to a parallel group, then disassemble that group and hunt the cell. Given the cost of cells today, if a pack is bad, it's usually going to be cheaper to rebuild it than to do the labor to tear it apart. If you have one bad cell, there are likely to be more in the future.

If you're having regular problems with your battery packs, might I suggest sourcing better packs made of higher quality components?
 
Syonyk, I am so grateful for your detailed response. Thank you so much.
I would really like to learn to do this myself so that I can then be able to teach my e-bike mechanics.
I am sure you could be of great assistance to me in that regard.
If you would be so kind as to contact me at henrylbelectricbikes@gmail.com I have a proposition for you.
Cordially.
Henry
 
User error.
 
Well...none of the above. I can't see where else to put this, so its here. After 2 yrs storage unused i pulled from shed my bike complete with 48v 20ah 38120s cell battery expecting probs. plug in and goes ok. Ride and it cuts out randomly. Take pack apart to see if i can detect bad cells. In order to test each cell, decide it necessary to remove all jumpers from one side to enable checking each cell?? Screw 20 is different, head is much thicker and with washer is not long enough to even start into battery cell, Remove washer and is ok. Replace previously removed jumpers charge and test drive....Problem solved. seems fine after 1 week of use. In my haste to try, i did not note what thread screw was. M4 stainless ? Also, how would i detect the weak cells, i had thought i might use rc charger on individual cells (32x) and note charge required individually. Simpler answers would be more usefull. Thanks in anticipation. Jim.
 
For lithiuim,,,

#1 problem not caused by the user is broken charger.

#1 problem caused by the user is improper storage over winter.

For Sla's, the #1 user caused problem is riding the bike too far. Same for lithium that does not have a bms.
 
The most common problem I see (from my admittedly rather weird perspective of pack rebuilding) is dead batteries caused by sitting for a long time with a BMS that's still alive. The older BionX packs are pretty bad about this - they have to be charged regularly, and will spend their last charge beeping, trying to convince someone to come charge them. Sadly, nobody actually describes this warble anywhere in the manual, so nobody can figure out what the sound is until the pack is finally stone dead and they try to use it 6 months later.

The newer BionX packs have a deep sleep mode that, at least on paper, fixes this (the BMS will entirely turn off and will require the charger to be plugged in to wake back up).

Most batteries don't have that deep sleep system, so they'll get killed by the BMS static draw over time.

Another common enough issue on older packs is just capacity loss with time. It's not really a "problem" in that it's not something easily solved, but it's just the behavior of lithium batteries over time. They get weak from cycles and calendar life, and storing them fully charged (as is common for electric bikes - charge them fully when you get home) doesn't do them any favors.

Weak cells are certainly a problem with hobby lipo builds and other "junk battery" builds, but shouldn't be an issue on new, factory packs - and if it is an issue, find a pack builder who will use better cells. OEM 18650s shouldn't randomly crap out cell by cell, and if they are, they're probably fake.
 
BMS's are a peace of crap if not programmable or custom made. Not considering discharge problem, they just let your batteries charge to 4.22-4.25V/cell and bats crap after a year. My brother got under 80% capacity in 1 year on 2 batteries (alternate use), while I got to same condition (same cells) after 4 years charging to 4.1-4.15V with no BMS, (only 1 battery, every day use).
 
Lots of low-quality junk batteries that people shouldn't be using unknow cells in the battery. Your battery manufacturer may be using low quality and that's the first step I think you're buying a cheap Chinese junk you are.
Henery what are the exact cells being used in your battery packs. Don't just Panasonic or Samsung all the information.
If someone is using Quality Sales they'll let you know right away if they're not they'll use some other proprietary b*******.
 
I guess I will just have to rephrase the question.
Assumptions:
No user error.
No charger error.
No mistreatment of the battery.
Battery is NOT old.
Now would folks please simply tell me (vote) in their opinion, what is the most prevalent problem found lithium batteries. Since I have listed only five items (words), please answer with only five words and please skip the technical explanations and discussion of battery and cell types, or such other. Just simply list the items in problem order. PLEASE!
BMS?
Bad cells?
Short?
Loose connection inside the battery.
Other?
 
Sorry, but it depends on too many factors.

Did you buy your pack from a quality retailer or from alibaba or even a diy builder? Was the pack built with "economic restraint" or were high quality components used?

There are too many variables to give a answer to this as some only deal with recoverd cells and cheap or no bms and others use new cells from a reputable suppyer and so on.
 
Just assume it is not a junk battery.
Flippy, why do you even bring up the question of '...no BMS." Obviously, I would not have asked about the BMS, if it did not have one.
 
The number one battery problem is that it is still not as reliable as gas. A gas engine on a vehicle, you may never need it worked on for 10-20 years and if you do need a replacement part you pull in to a repair place.

Batteries are still too hobbyist leaning. We need more stable batteries that work for a good long time (more cycles) and that if something should fail, I get it repaired somewhere. Batteries are still inferior because sometimes u need a voltage-meter, take the whole thing apart, and have some know-how to work on them.

I know I am a bit off topic, but i feel its the main battery problem in a general sense.

I've never had to take apart my electric stove.

My coffee maker has been working for many years, very little maintenance.

My Ebike, no I am not going to manipulate the transducer to make the flux capacitor operate at a .083679084 flatulence level.

I want to be a consumer not a technician.
 
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