Homemade 2kW brushless motor EV now with fairing & no solar

[F&P]

Hi Guys,

I just joined after reading some great information on this forum.
I am based in Melbourne Australia.

I first posted this on the EV genearl then thought that the motor is more like a bike hub motor, so here it is.

I have for some strange reason, been building a 3 wheeled solar car for the past 2 years part time, after years of working in the solar industry and being facinted with motors running from solar power and sometimes combined with batteries.



View attachment 3


Since the pics above I have cut down the steel extensions to mount solar panels and now just using it as a EV and will make a light weight trailer for the 4 x 80W solar panels. Used cheap corflute for the fairing.




See you tube link of motor running: A bit of a knock due to magnet touching stator slightly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GFiTE-2hcs

The motor I wanted for the project was always going to be a multi-pole brushless 3 phase type of motor, as have built many 3phase wind turbines using old Fisher and Paycal (F&P) washing machine motors rewound for higher amps and lower voltages, they also have halls sensors and this I want to talk about later.

Originally Brett White from http://www.ebike.biz in Australia, helped me out with testing some controllers he had with the F&P re-configured motors, as he had also thought that they would make a great Brushless vehicle motor.

It worked the first time I tried a Crystallyte 20A / 48V controller after half guessing the configuration of wires, amazing.

I put it on a large giurls bike with some Nicads I had at 48V / 10Ah, I had is chain drive at nearlyy 1-1 gearing wiht a 27"wheel and it went like a rocket but never reached its full speed as when I tested it wiht a bike speedo i found it was doing about 95kph free wheeling of course.

I then geared it down to about 2-1 and wheel stands became very easy and scarry and speed was 50-60Kph.

I finshed the solar car based on one rear wheel with a single sided swingarm and the motor's 1" x 10" stainless shaft directly welded into the hub of a BMX 20" wheel with a small motorbike shocker.
The front 2 wheels also used a motorbike shocker for each wheel.
The frame is a trellis type of frame made from 20mm / 1.6mm square steel.
I am using for now 4 x 12V Haze 18Ah gel batts, but will go for lithium when I can offord it.
Weight without solar panles is about 90kg and i only weigh 65kg. Panels are about 7kg each x 4 = 28kg, total with me and panles = 185kg.

Will be using 4 x 85W / 4.9Amp Suntech panels as they are cheap but heavy due to glass.

I brought a 72V / 45Amp 12fet, Infineon controller from Keywin and it failed after some driving.
I think the motor had too little resistance at about .1 to .2 Ohms.
Keywin helped me out with a repair and I brought spare IRFB4310 Fets and a spare PCB with all surface mount componenets.
I re-configured another F&P motor as they came in 3 wire sizes being: .6mm latest, .8mm mid and 1mm first model.
I used a .8mm motor re-configured in parallel with about .4 Ohms.

These motors are large, measuring about 12"x 2" (300mm x 50mm) with 42 coils and 56 magnet poles.
the motors come with ferrite magnets I replace them with Neo magnets measuring 10mm / 40mm / 6mm thick.
they have a 1" (30mm) x 12"(300mm) stainless steel shaft which normally connects to the washing machine tub.

I also think the problems I have had with the controllers is that the hall sensors seem to be placed in a different order to what is on the bike hub motors.

I will attach pictures and a short video for you to see what I mean and possibly help me with any problems you guys can see.

I also need help in getting my new infineon 72V / 45A controller working.

Finally i just brought a 1000W (not sure about rating ) bike hub motor and controller from Conhismotors which i know seem a bit dodgey but for $220AU shipped to Melbourne, it was too good to knock back, will tell you how it goes.

See attached picture of motors hall sensor location, different to bike hub motors, any ideas in this??.

F&P Motor stator with hall sensor location.



Matt Lyons (F&P)
My work website: http://www.energymatters.com.au, cheap solar panels etc.

 

[Grinhill]

Great work, Matt.

On your video, that's exactly the same noise my F & P washing machine makes on its spin cycle. :lol:

Where do you usually pick up your motors from?

 

[F&P]

Yes very much the same sound, but this modified neo magnet rotor converted F&P gives more of a growl than the standard ferrite version which i have also tried.
You can get them from hard rubish or washing machine repairers. don't pay more than $40.

There is a place in NZ that converts them to wind turbine alternators re-configured for high Amps and low voltages and sell them for about $200AU, but the 6 or so I have were all free.
http://www.ecoinnovation.co.nz/c-59-parts.aspx

The neo magnet conversion is fun and cheap at about $100 give and take for 56magnets (40mm / 10mm/5-6mm), or in my case 224 (4 per pole) as I got these at 2C each x 224 = $5 per rotor. I set then in fiberglass resin.
So the hub motor you see cost me about $10 all up.
They would make great go cart motors etc also.
I thought more people would have used them.

F&P

 

[spinningmagnets]

I had heard about the Fisher & Paykel motors from wind-gen sites a while back, but it was only last year I first saw an F & P washing machine being sold in the US. With a Neo-magnet upgrade, what would you guess it would have as an RPM from 36V/48V? If the RPM's are close to useable, it might be worth buying from Aus/NZ , even with shipping....

 

[F&P]

As there are 3 different models, .6mm, .8mm and 1mm wire versions and 2 or more different wiring combinations for each motor, being half series and half parallel or all coils per phase in parrallel, you could change the RPM from around 200 to 1000rpm which I think they come close to in te washing machines on spin cycle.
Also then depends on what controller is being used. Delta / Star could easily be switched while driving with the exposed F&P. Also heat would not be as much of a problem wiht the F&P as the bike hub notors due to the coils being fully exposed.

To show you how much power they have:
I first made the Neo converted motor up for a wind turbine and got 60Amp at 14V, then I used it as a welder on a small farm I have with no power. I used the standard ferrite rotor even and had a 1mm motor in parallel and ran it at about 2000 rpm off my 1984 Subaru paddick bomb with only a high idle adjustmet and no govenor. I used a large car alternator bridge rectifier (100Amp) to convert the 3 phase into DC, and it worked a bloody treat. Even people who could not really weld properly, found it really easy. It had a nice high frequncy sound coming from the welding rod.

So in the end there are endless opputunities for these F&P motors.
Would love to try a 72V / 50A to 80Amp controller on one.
I might have a look around and see what I have got for you in the way of spare motors, or even just a stator.

 

[tostino]

I was pushing my 12fet infinion with 4310's to 75-80a battery current with no problems.

I ended up frying a couple fets a week or so ago, but that was because I was putting full throttle through a stalled motor repeatedly trying to see if the motor's relays would overheat. Well, turns out the 4310's don't like 150+a phase current over and over in bursts.

I don't believe I would have ever burnt up the fets under normal use, it was just my stupidity that did it.

I have since replaced them with 4110s, and now have a 110a battery current limit. My shunt is beefed up, and so are all my traces. So far, it's been running cool even with all that current.

Just letting you know that your controller is capable of a lot more than you are probably putting through it, as long as you do some very basic mods.

P.S. I really like the motor, it looks great on the car like that!

 

[F&P]

Thanks for your comment, I like it also and the single sided swingarm is a nice touch i thought.
the bearings F&P use are housed in an alluminun case and i aset it in a square steel section. Bearings are large at about
25mm (1") centre, and the 25mm / 250mm stainless shaft could handle all types of loads.

Re controller:
I have read that the infineon 12Fet controller is very good and i feel that the motors hall sensor location might have something to do with it????
Keywin did set it at 48V, but this should not be a problem.
I have notied that with the large resistor location R01B, there is a wire bridging the back of it.
See picture and tell me your thoughts guys??

I would love some points on where to check voltags etc and what voltages should be and where. I am happy to go though and explain in more depth with someone about the problems.

At the moment the new PCB I assembled from Keywin does nothing and I checked halls all giving 0 to 5V and throttle also working, but nothing. All with new FETS from Keywin IRFB4310, mostly new caps apart from the big ones. would also like to know how to check fet drivers????






F&P

 

[F&P]

Yeh ha,

I got the infineon 12Fet controller working with the re-configured F&P motor again, had 2 blown fets and one dud fet driver. Now that it is wired correctly it is quieter and has a lower rpm with the wheel off the ground, but with better torque, tested with doing a quick foot test, lots of smoke from my shoe without no way of stopping the wheel. Taken it for a quick run around my driveway which has 2 gates which means I can drive out the front and it has a hill on the way out which it handles no problem even without a run up, no speed runs yet, to come soon. Need to go over brakes etc.

The solarcar without solar panels, weighs about 87kg with batteries, (4 x 18Ah SLA/Gel) and I weigh about 68kg, so a total weight of about 155kg. Solar panels will weigh 30kG total for all 4. Fairing will weigh only about 5kg.
Total will end up being about 190kg.

Considering that theres some big 90 to 100kg lads out there riding e-bikes around with 4x18Ah SLA and mountain bike weight, probably adds up to:
Bike = 18kg
Batts = 24kg
Rider = 90kg
Motor etc = 10kg
Total = 142kg.

Will be interesting to see how this 1000W conhismotor compares when I get it in 1 week. I guess not as good, but testing will tell??? Again I could not resist the Conhismotor and controller kit for $220AU ($195US+/-) shipped to Melbourne, Australia.

Should have a video soon of my real test run.

F&P

 

[Hyena]

Nice work Matt!
I like the near silent stealth of my ebike but at the same time cruising past cars while sounding like a washing machine on the spin cycle would be cool too 8)
Whats the purpose of the project ? Just for interest or is it part of a competition / race ?

Where did you get the conhis motor for $220 delivered ? Ebay or their website ? I was thinking about trying one but they weren't that cheap, and that was only the bare wheel too.

 

[F&P]

The purpose of the project is mainy because I love building mechanical and electrical things and this is my best so far. Will try an enter it into some race etc when finished and really wait to take it out to the country and do some good long runs with solar panels.

Got reverse going yesterday and has even more go, will literrally spin the rear wheel with me in it on our bituman driveway WTF, but is much slower, will take video soon to prove it, also has no soft start in reverse which makes things even more interesting, it is either the wierd hall sensor location (being closer to one side of the coil) or the programming, but programming should not increase toruqe, so more testing to do by swapping wires on motor to make it go backwards but trick it and to on reverse on controller to make it go forward and see what happens then, I hope you understand. This will determine if it is the motors hall locations or controller limiting speed in reverse, I feel it will be the hall location.

Now getting 47Amps and it wheel spins in gravel. See youtube link of it doing a power slide.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux1gCSBocmc

Re: Conhis motor, yes brought direct from their website, they have paypal so took a gamble with it as I couldn't resist for that price, just hub motor, spokes and controller. Will tell you how it goes when I receive it his week hopefully, first thing will be to pull motor and controller apart to see build quality etc and maybe post some pics.

F&P

 

[F&P]

Now has a Corflute fairing that cost only $30 all up. Will be adding colour soon and a perpex roof, see first pic has a white line to show basic shape of roof. Should go though the wind a bit better now I hope.







F&P
Matt

 

[NZBen]

Just wondering if you had any issues with the hall sensors - I'm trying to get an F&P motor going now but cant for the life of me figure out what I'm doing wrong with regards to the hall sensors. I cant get reasonable readings from them. I've been powering them with 13v (Board says 15V on it) the output seems to be only about 0.1V when I bring a magnet near. Any info would be appreciated. Thx

 

[zt3]

Just wondering if you had any issues with the hall sensors - I'm trying to get an F&P motor going now but cant for the life of me figure out what I'm doing wrong with regards to the hall sensors. I cant get reasonable readings from them. I've been powering them with 13v (Board says 15V on it) the output seems to be only about 0.1V when I bring a magnet near. Any info would be appreciated. Thx

NZBen, I and my thesis mates experience the same problem as yours. At first we doubt we have interchanged the polarity of the power supply of the sensors. We even got 3 units of it testing what really is the functional one. Unfortunately, all exhibit the same behavior. Also, we got a measurement in terms of mV at some instances. Until yesterday when my adviser suspected that there could be an amplification circuit embedded in the controller of the Smart Drive, which could be the reason why we get the same value. Today we'll try replacing the hall sensors with EW-512 and see how it goes. We'll also try the same position (one teeth after) of the hall sensors of the Smart Drive with Lyen's 12 FET motor controller.

 

[whatever]

Hi Matt
can you share any info on the magnets you used?
size/shape and source?
( also ebike.biz site you mentioned no longer exists)

 

[zt3]

Just as we expected! Replacing the stock hall sensors with EW-512 halls could effectively run the F&P motor! Just make sure to place them in the original setting and set them at the center in between teeth (as suggested by Matt Lyons from another thread). Everything should be well. Will post some photos and video demos of our craft soon. Thanks so much to Matt for all the support!

 

[jateureka]

The links to the photos no longer work. Any chance they can be re-loaded?

 

[F&P]

Hi Guys,

I just realised how long it has been since I visited this forum, nearlly 2 years.

I never had any issues running different F&P motor winding types, controller types etc with any F&P standard hall sensor board, maybe the older hall sensor boards were set up differently. I had the occasional one fail, but had spares so no real issue.
I always got the .5V to 4.5V if all was working OK.

Note: F&P standard hall sensor board: Purple is POS and black is NEG, other 3 are halls, all the controllers I used run at 5V output for the halls and 48V - 72V for the motor.

Anyway the beast still runs well but I need some decent strong wheel chair wheels for the front.

Magnets suppliers: Been a long time so no real answer on this, I got mine as surplass stock but look around the web is all I can say.

Well done to zt3, glad to hear it runs.

I will try an uplaod the pics again when I have time.

Good luck all,

Matt

 

[zt3]

Hey Matt! Thanks! Long time no hear! I think the hall wiring you meant was for phase 5 type as seen here: http://www.angelsnz.net/ZL3SV/misc/F&P%20Service%20manual%20517735.pdf

Regarding neo magnet, what grade did you use for it? We tried using neo mags a year ago, but due to strong attraction of magnets to the iron core, the motor couldn't spin freely by hand. Is that normal for a brushless motor?