How about a 3D printer section?

[Alan B]

I'm collecting parts for a Trident. It will take awhile to gather them and get through the PIF que.

 

[goatman]

having a little, filament range anxiety

if i run out of pla+ can i just finish with normal pla?

 

[DogDipstick]

I never understood the infatuation with this "3-D Printing". I almost bought a starter machine a few times, will build one myself somme day certainly.

I'll be chewwing up tool steel and aluminum by the hundreds of pounds and recycling the chips while yall are figuring out what clooged your nozzle. Throwing sparks and controlling the spindles as tehy ramp up and check their stepper positions 1.5 million times per second in closed loop servo. On my CNC mills. 3-4-5 Axis can do anything. All day with ( what seems like, ) about 1/10 of the cost in materiel... , for 10x the strength in the end product.


I'll never trust someone else's homemade structural design with anything.. valuable. I have seen so much load path, faults, and material property ignored in the hobbyist 3d printing world. What about the long term? WHat about your ability in structural design? I know I am not the best at either, and how can you invest so much money in these things?

Without knowing the viability of the end product? My question to 3D printing since day 1. How long will it last. How strong is t. How much of a chance is there, that if I buy an off the shelf printer, I will be buying junk, or relative junk.

I am sorry for the aside, and do want to say I do want to learn more and this is a great, wonderful reference thread. Learning alot from you guys. I also have a teacher in the family who has like 100 public university machines at his disposal... and... well, I like traditional machining better... IDK why, but I do want to get into 3Dprinting without too much wasted money or a hard learning curve. I do want to learn about printing metal machines. That does interest me.

Many variables in printing make published data hard to interpret or compare, set up tests and make your own measurements.

Or get the 3d printer that lays a fiber of kevlar along the print line, making things as strong as aluminum but lighter in weight.

Sounds like Justin is using cf/PETG for the solar holding brackets on his sailboat.



Couldn't resist and ordered some linear guide rails for the Y axis.

The solar panel mountings on a sailboat hull are very important. How do you know how long they will last? UV light is terrible. On the sea. These are the questions I have.


I have to spring 280$ for four, used, stepper drivers, this week.

The drivers OEM costs was somewhere around 5,000$.. the 128 microstep RBD242A(s), Endooders, and motors alone.. and they are not even 5-phase or servos. Just closed loop steppers. : for instance, I purchased (7), 1000mm Hiwins last month, (14) recirculating and a few 1400mm INA. Drivers, steppers, rails, actuators, prox sensors, wires, belts, wheels, 23 and 24 and 1.7 and 34... I can get a ton of stuff like this, and its great. I want to build a 1000mm^3, 3d printer, but I have no idea how. Lol.

i see machine after machine after machine scrapped and chopped up with a 40 ton Cat with a shear......... Then another filling a 53' scrap truck, to be melted down and sold to the highest bidder.. ( usually overseas). The last (30) Fanucs came from the GM Allison Whitemarsh plant. Trashed and stuffed into a truck. Built 2001-2004 VMCs. Trashed once the copper and whatnot is stripped from them.

Me trying to pull parts off them with every last expendable cent in my pocket, trying to pay a little more than the scrap price for the equipment.. In between. Lol. I got a grand of those parts, from Whitemarsh. That was all I could afford. The rest was shredded..

That is all. I'll refrain from comment as I learn more here. thankyou.

 

[scianiac]

I can't really disagree with you in many ways, I have a CNC mill and a manual lathe too. In fact the lathe is a 50s era southbend that I probably have saved from the scrapper as you describe. The problem though is as much as it sometimes looks like 3D printers are hard it's mostly because people only ask for advice when things aren't working and many users don't have much mechanical experience with tools like them of any sort so in reality using a 3D printer is vastly easier (and cheaper) than learning to operate a CNC mill. Let alone an old CNC with weird control systems.

Leaving that out there are pros and cons to both but assuming equal skill on both the printer will always win for labor, the only thing faster from part idea to output is a 2D system (laser, plasma cutter, waterjet etc). When designing a part for printing you don't have to bother with so many things, clamping, tool clearances, tool availability, blind features, multiple operations, just ignore it all. And along with that comes the ability to print things that are impossible to machine, every day I print parts that are impossible to machine, and I don't mean like oh it would take a few ops, I mean like you would have to split the part into several parts and do them all on a 5 axis. For many things this is actually the key to making a product viable, because I can't compete with overseas machining but I can design a part that is better than current things because those current things were designed when 3D printing didn't exist. I've obviously left out all of the serious cons of 3D printing because you probably know them already. The point is machining and 3D printing just need to be used where they are best, and they're both worse than laser cutting if you can get away with it.

 

[goatman]

that part that would take 6d9hrs
by switching to 80%infill and 80mm/s
did it in 2d9hrs

thought i was going to run out of filament but didnt
i made a mistake in cad, did an 8mm pad then another 50mm extension for a total of 58mm but i didnt pad the pad, it wound up at 50mm total. not a big deal, if youre not screwing up, youre not learning

 

[nicobie]

It really doesn't cost much to get started in 3D printing. Newegg sells the Ender3 v2 for $229 and a roll of PLA costs ~$20. With that a guy can make a lot of useful things that would take much more time to make using traditional methods. However after saying that, I won't be getting rid of my "old fashioned" tools anytime soon.

IMHO a 3D printing setup Is definitely worthwhile in a small shop. I wish I would have bought one years ago.

 

[DogDipstick]

IMHO a 3D printing setup Is definitely worthwhile in a small shop. I wish I would have bought one years ago.

Every machine tool shop I have been in ( in the big factories we service and tear out) all have one set up in the corner of the toolroom office or design offices. This started to get me really interested. The cardboard factory did. The Whitemasrsh plant did. The fiberglass car factory did. The Tyson chicken factory did even. We have contracts to clean a bunch of these floors too: We are a big " cleaning" company.. ( yeah cleaning with demo saws lol).. so we get to see alot of these places when we do the floors.

Lol. Usually a machine with a 1 foot ^3 footprint with a roll on top.

Thats why I was thinking I need one. Of course I have looked at the Ender. Ty for the reply.

 

[goatman]

looking at lasers on Amazon 15w 450nm blue
will that cut through 0.1mm copper?

 

[DogDipstick]

that part that would take 6d9hrs
by switching to 80%infill and 80mm/s
did it in 2d9hrs


looking at lasers on Amazon 15w 450nm blue
will that cut through 0.1mm copper?

Wow you really leave a machine on for 2+ days? At a time? Wow. I get scared if something is running and Im away for ten min. Again, this shows my naïveté. I didnt know the prints like that take so gosh darned long.


No.

A "15w 450nanaometer" is probably really 3w laser ( optical output)...

I got four diode lasers here: A " 10w".. ( 2.5w)... Another 3w, ( 20ww input).. and a 20w ( 5 w output), and a another 5w.. ( 36w input.)...

Even with the claimed " 30w" one ( 5 w out) will not even put a mark on the thinnest copper or aluminum foil I have . I have tried. Barley gets hot even.... just reflects and disperses.

Little diode laser are cool though, highly recommend, for they are cheap, ( cheap enough for me to have 4)... Ten years ago they would have to be in a machine that is tough to fit on a trailer, let alone hold in your hand .... A huge metal cabinet.. is now in the palm of your hand...

Micro machine ing is the way to cut copper. I can double side tape it to the deck of the mill and cut it out. Have done that before. I could do this for you if you really want some time in your project. Scissors will cut 0.1mm copper. All day.

I was told by an industrial laser salesman that I need at least 1000w fiber laser to weld my pouch cells together... and the machine he quoted me was 17$K shipped. That is the same, very thin copper and aluminum.

On the subject of printers, I am goin to a engineers conference in Oaks PA this weekend and ( one of tho big shows for new fangled products, makers and manufacturers, ) (https://www.d2p.com/) gonna see what is state of the art. Maybe I'll take pics of the newsy machines and set them here. For ... resurches. There will be alot there doing their thing... in demos.

I want a RenAm500Q.
Or an ExONe.
Forget about that "Creality" style printer. I want an X1 25Pro.
A sintering Lumex Advance25. Thats what I'm talking about. A TRAK A2v4. An Evo 22T Airwolf.

Ya know.. real 3d printers. Not that.. Amazon fodder. I can dream, right?
I'll probally end up with the " Used, parts or repair" printer. Lol. From eBay.

I know those ^^ printers that which I mentioned.. would require a large mortgage certainly.

 

[Jordan325ic]

I want a RenAm500Q.
Or an ExONe.
Forget about that "Creality" style printer. I want an X1 25Pro.
A sintering Lumex Advance25. Thats what I'm talking about. A TRAK A2v4. An Evo 22T Airwolf.

Ya know.. real 3d printers. Not that.. Amazon fodder. I can dream, right?
I'll probally end up with the " Used, parts or repair" printer. Lol. From eBay.

I know those ^^ printers that which I mentioned.. would require a large mortgage certainly.

Be aware that the running cost for those non-FDM machines is very, very high. I spent a week with one of those metal SLS systems, and doing a simple material change took for 4 hours and cost.. $3000. Parts and material disposal (that powder is hazmat).

Do research on Prusa printers out of Czech Republic. $1000 for their business package, you get a bulletproof machine fully capable of 24/7/365 printing, with factory support.

 

[markz]

I saw someone on Kijiji that has a 3d printer and is selling their services for bicycle mud guards.

Goatman - Business idea to recoup your out of pocket expenses. :thumb:
And keep your 3d printing dreams alive.

 

[goatman]

im starting to design the cell holder system for the battery magnets

 

[stan.distortion]

...
Ya know.. real 3d printers. Not that.. Amazon fodder. I can dream, right?
I'll probally end up with the " Used, parts or repair" printer. Lol. From eBay.

I know those ^^ printers that which I mentioned.. would require a large mortgage certainly.

Don't knock the el-cheapo amazon specials 'till you've tried them The prusa I have here cost me less than $150 and has done hundreds of hours, it's only real weak point was rigidity and that was easily fixed with an enclosure and some additional bracing.

If you find something production quality at scrap price then go for it obviously but failing that I'd suggest looking more at the cheap and cheerful end of the market that high end consumer grade. Your requirements will almost certainly change after some hands on experience and I don't think any of the consumer grade machines on the market have quite hit "right" yet, wouldn't be surprised to see many significant design changes over the next decade or so and a cheap machine would still come in useful if you go for something more up market.

 

[DogDipstick]

I'd suggest looking more at the cheap and cheerful end of the market that high end consumer grade. Your requirements will almost certainly change after some hands on experience

Yea I really have no idea what is possible, nor what I want at all. I just see things, dont know quality, nor what is value when it comes to the retail market. Thanyou for reminding me this.

All I know is tat I want to make cool looking stuff like goatman above.

 

[stan.distortion]

...
Yea I really have no idea what is possible, nor what I want at all. I just see things, dont know quality, nor what is value when it comes to the retail market. Thanyou for reminding me this.

All I know is tat I want to make cool looking stuff like goatman above.

Yeah, your perspective changes an awful lot when you've got a handle on the process and it's easy to see how something big enough to print a small boat or pumping out lines of concrete to print houses makes sense. A long axis would come in very useful here, half a meter or so in one direction would have saved me a lot of time and it would take very little to modify a cheap printer to do that, even taken as a kit of all the control parts they're exceptionally cheap and reliability of those parts has proven very good in my experience so far.

 

[Chalo]

Yeah, your perspective changes an awful lot when you've got a handle on the process and it's easy to see how something big enough to print a small boat or pumping out lines of concrete to print houses makes sense.

Like for like, material for material, additive manufacturing gets the worst structural qualities from whatever you're working with. Discontinuities all over the place, weakness between layers, and if there's any reinforcing fiber, it doesn't cross between layers where it's most needed.

There's a 3D house being printed near where I live. It's been under construction since May at least, but it doesn't look halfway finished yet. I like the hypothetical promise of printed concrete structures, but there's nothing living up to the hype yet as far as I can tell. Same with 3D printed metals. Let's combine the cost of a 5-axis milled part, the finish quality of a raw forging, and the strength of a Bangladeshi sand casting. Yay!

What 3D printing is good for now is what it's been good for since day one-- rapid prototyping and proof of concept. I can't think of a single thing I'd use it for on a bike, unless there's something I especially want to fall off without warning.

 

[nicobie]

Yep, it's kind of like building a bike out of wood. It can be done but what's the point. It's like everything we use to build with, they all have different applications.

I have to agree that layer adhesion is the Achilles' heel of additive manufacturing. That said, I'm having a blast playing around with it. There are a lot of things that are useful that can be made of 3D printed plastic.

My wife calls it, "Nicks latest toy".

 

[Alan B]

For years I thought that 3d printers were overpriced toys. The mechanical engineers at work spent 30k$ on their first one, and it produced weak small models. It was useful to them, but at that price? After all, they only produce items that are plastic, and not the full strength of the base material, right?

A few years ago I decided I had an application for 3d printing. I needed a family of custom plastic spacers with some surfaces that conformed to pipe diameters, and the stresses were minimal. So I bought one. I ended up with a spacer design that one could not make with a CNC machine, it has internal curved slots for cable ties that just could not be cut with any machine tool I'm aware of. Within the four years since then I have found I can design and make useful items that have more than adequate performance with plastic with far less cost, material and effort than with my machine tools. Eventually I'll CNC the mill, but even there the 3D printer can make many items that are useful for that project. I make designs weekly and have printed thousands of things, mostly of my own design for my projects and products.

People think that 3d prints are not strong. Well, I made some pillars to raise a bed that have been in service for years with no signs of issues. I've seen 3d printed shelf brackets holding lots of weight just fine. Some of the CAD programs can do the analysis if you need that. For a lot of things it is not necessary. The strength available is surprising, useful and adequate for a lot of things, more than I expected.

A good quality 3d printer is quite safe to run overnight or for days. Not all of them are, but the good ones are fine. I run a lot of print jobs up to 9 hours long and some longer.

3d printers are quite unlike subtractive CNC machines because of the lack of need for material, orientation and clamping. You clean off the build plate, make sure there's enough filament for the job and start it up. Once you trust the printer (from experience) you don't even have to watch the first layer go down.

I made an adapter for my Son's RadCity the other day that allowed him to mount a tail light onto the rack. This particular tail light was only designed for mounting on a seat post, not a flat surface. A custom chunk of plastic is adequate and easy for the application, and I didn't have to make it, just design it and push the button. I make a couple designs a week for the 3d printer to solve problems around the house and shop.

Today I designed a holder for my tennis string tension meter, and printed it. Never had to go into the shop and look for a piece of material, clamp it, etc, etc. Far more efficient of my time than subtractive CNC for this item. Would have been a waste to make in metal. Some things call for metal, but the amount of plastic around us proves that it is adequate for a lot of applications.

I definitely want to CNC my mill and maybe even the lathe, but the 3d printer is the best value in a tool that I have ever purchased.

 

[spinningmagnets]

A while back, I looked at some videos on using a "lost PLA" casting method.

Fascinating stuff. 3D print a part with low infill and smooth/solid skin. Cover in a layer of high-temp plaster.

Pack in a sand-box for casting metal. Heat to cure the plaster and drain the low-temp plastic.

Then, cast aluminum in the usual way, possibly even brass. Lots of possibilities.

 

[Alan B]

If you need strength, heat resistance, or UV resistance you can choose the plastic that you print with to suit your requirements. This in turn determines what features your printer needs to have. Abrasive materials like carbon fiber loaded plastics require a nozzle designed to handle that (hardened steel, carbide, etc). Higher temperature materials require higher temperature hotends, build plates and possibly enclosures. The $200 printers may not have the features you need (but you can always mod those too).

PLA is the most popular 3D printing plastic, but it gets soft above 50C and is not suitable for long term hot or direct sunlight applications (though one can protect it from sunlight with paint). ABS handles the heat up to 90C or so but doesn't handle UV too well, so paint it or move to ASA which is a UV resistant variety of ABS. Many car parts are routinely made of ASA by injection molding. PETG is a relative of water bottle plastic and handles heat about as well as PVC so it fits into the middle of the temperature range. There are many higher temperature plastics like polycarbonate (or even PEEK) and when loaded with carbon fiber some very tough parts can be printed. Nylon is popular for 3D printing. CF-Nylon is pretty tough.

I've made quite a few 3D printed ebike parts, none have failed yet.

Look for articles on 3d printing engineering plastics to see what's available. There's some pretty amazing materials, and even some of the common ones are more capable than you might guess.

 

[nicobie]

Yes, there are a lot of plastics that can be printed that are stronger (less brittle) than PLA. I'm in the process of figuring out carbon fiber/PETG and when done with that I'm going to attempt NylonX (cf/nylon).

 

[Alan B]

I've used a lot of PLA and PLA+, and there is quite a difference even between those. PLA+ is slightly more flexible and stronger than PLA. Manufacturers also make a difference.

To print the better engineering plastics generally requires higher temperatures and an enclosure. I don't have that yet but will when the Voron is completed.

I've been quite impressed with the capabilities of PLA+ and PETG. TPU is also very useful when a flexible material is needed.

But there are lots more plastics to experiment with. Plus of course the metal casting as Spinningmagnets mentioned. These days there are CNC routers that can do non ferrous metals while being cheaper and lighter than the full mill.

3d printed trays are fantastic for organizing tooling and small parts.

I 3d printed a Topeak trunk adapter that I designed for the RadCity, and some custom mounts for ebike displays on the handlebars awhile back.

 

[nicobie]

So far most everything I have printed has been of Sunlu PLA+. I can get PETG to print sometimes but am still having trouble with it wanting to ball up and tear away from the bed about 50% of the time depending on what I'm attempting to print. When I do a first layer test it turns out about perfect. Right now I'm using the smooth side of a glass bed but have a coated spring steel bed I'll be trying soon.

 

[Alan B]

I have had excellent adhesion with a very thin application of Aquanet extra super hold unscented hairspray and PETG. Have you tried that?

My printbeds are PEI on spring steel, but PETG adheres too well to the PEI and damages it, so I use the Aquanet which both protects the PEI and provides a surface that PETG likes to adhere to. Also works for TPU and PLA. I've heard that it works on glass as well.

 

[Alan B]

Many printers have problems with PETG due to errors in their GCode.

This video goes through a range of issues to help print PETG.

https://youtu.be/WjxMA4CkUZc