How does Grin stay in business?

[taiwwa]

It looks like they have a decent sized operation, several employees, a warehouse, probably some highly paid engineering staff also. Interest costs must be high. And being Canada the regulatory costs are high. I wonder how many of these DIY kits they ship per day.

 

[lnanek]

They also ship to dealers at a discount who then resell stuff in places like the US.

Personally, I got burned by a bunch of AliExpress stuff. Like a "30A" controller that was really a 10A controller with a different label on the outside, sellers who knew nothing about their products, support chat that just intentionally wastes time until the return period is up, etc..

So I'm definitely willing to pay more for a heavily documented product that is what it says it is and where I get good support over email in my primary language and time zone. They even shipped me a replacement for one part that was wired incorrectly. If I was a dealer supporting customers I'd probably want that even more.

 

[Eviltwin68]

I'm a member over on one of the recumbent message boards. Those people are used to spending big bucks on bikes and would rather go with better known companies like electrifybike and Grin even if they end up spending double or triple on the parts that go on the bike. They are just as likely to pay someone to do the work as to diy it themselves. I think most of the folks here are tinkerers at heart and aren't afraid of working through problems and improvising along the way as well as saving a few bucks.

Grin is exclusively into hub motors IIRC and they push those as a better solution than mid drives. When I first started looking for a motor for a Greenspeed trike I had, I was in sticker shock after pricing it all out. I ended up with a Tsdz2b off Pswpower and a battery for much less and did all the install myself. I'm more partial to mid drives as I think they are a neater solution overall.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

My trike is an investment in my future. I am designing it so that I have no objection to riding it every day, which is the most useful contribution it can make to my health, as well as my finances and to also decrease the damaging impact of fossil fuels.

I am delighted that Grin exists - they aren't focused on profit, they are focused on developing the best electric bike drive components they can dream up, and ensuring they work and keep working.

I'm not interested in gambling. I want my investment to work, and work long after the supply chains have broken down - which we have had a taste of just a few years ago, and which we will see again.

Regard how many people post here about "going faster", and how to get that cheap and quick. They are using their bikes to masturbate in public, rather than using them as transport. They have declared their priorities themself, and I take them at their word.

Buy cheap, get cheap. I would rather ride, and keep riding. I am careful about what I buy, but I am happy to support Grin. Otherwise there is only shit to buy, or locked-in proprietary (and very expensive) bikes to buy.

frock the almighty dollar. (Note: the web site has apparently changed my wording automatically. You can surmise what I wrote.)

 

[neptronix]

They occupy a niche nobody else does in North America and produce a number of unique items that other companies resell.
They also filter out all the crap from China and only stock the mid to high end stuff, which is nice. Like, i can go on their website, buy a motor, and expect it to not be trash. The opposite of the Aliexpress/Amazon experience

Despite the high cost of being in Vancouver, Canada, they are a thrifty and efficient operation, which soaks up the extra expense. Being next to a port helps soak up that cost, too.

Also, look at the USA market.. there's nobody selling a wide range of hub motor kits.. just reselling the same Chinese mid drives for decades.. so they don't have competition south of the border either.


Here's one company i really don't understand how is still in business.. this is the bigger outlier, lol



Yes, you're looking at a 27mm 9C/9C clone motor or a low feature MAC motor for this price.

 

[taiwwa]

I guess the issue for me is that these kits require quite a bit of know-how. I myself haven't gotten around to ordering one yet because of the amount of work that it would take to implement it, plus the expense is rather high. In contrast, I could buy an ebike from aventon or vvolt or priority, do some light assembly, and be ready in a fraction of the time. Also, the tariffs are a problem...

 

[neptronix]

Conflict of interest statement up front:
- I am personally a big fan of Grin for their product quality, open-ness, and innovation.
- Grin pays me to do technical stuff on this website and they financially support the forum.
- Grin has never asked me to say XYZ about them, so i'm giving you the least biased opinion i'm capable of.

Grin does offer a 'to the moon' level of customization on their products and i see how someone could be intimidated by that, especially if they're new to conversions. But the truth is, there's a lot to learn anyway.

Grin is the only ebike parts company that goes out of their way to teach the consumer what he/she needs to know.. and in fact.. this website is indirectly part of that effort.

...but you don't have to buy 'to the moon' from Grin.. or even a matched set of anything.

Typically i build a bike like this, because i'm a frugal person:
- Hub motor usually from Grin since they have the best selection, highest quality stuff, know their product intimately, and list specs unlike most sellers. They also fix problems with the OEM part.
- Torque arms always from Grin, all other torque arms are inferior and i learned long ago to not buy knockoffs because they suck.
- Other kinds of accessories like 'triple bobs', again.. i will buy from Grin first.
- I am partial to em3ev for batteries for their quality to price ratio. But i may venture out for a specialty battery.
- Controller? it depends. The phaserunner and baserunner are very nice controllers but usually i'm driving a very high RPM or high power motor, and i reach for a VESC instead because it can push higher power and also handle any motor i throw at it.
- Cycle analyst/screen? for a Grin kit, i'd go with a superharness and basic bafang display over the cycle analyst v3 any day. I don't like the CA V3 or the idea of a piggyback controller at all. I have a few 'standalone' cycle analysts here and i will use those on other companies' controllers, since those controllers have crappy or non-existent displays.

The beauty of what Grin and other DIY companies sell is that the parts are interchangeable >98% of the time.
Grin uses their own sets of connectors but they sell the other end and you can easily rewire new connectors on any motor.

Grin shines in cases where you have exacting requirements, want high quality parts, and/or want what's cutting edge.


You could buy a pre built ebike, but there's a >95% chance that the prebuilt ebike company has designed in proprietary connectors, parts, and electronic designs intended to prevent you from servicing the bike or replacing any parts. And you can expect a 'hotdogs at the baseball game' kind of pricing for those parts.

..if that bike breaks, in many cases, you get to.. either lose the entire ebike.. or completely re-convert it with all new electric parts.. now this bike was way more expensive than the DIY route in that case.

We have thousands of unresolved prebuilt bike repair questions on our forum over the last 3 years due to the covid-era ebike buying spree. Zero of the people know what components they have in the first place. Most of the components are relabeled or built by a fly by night company, therefore can't even be identified in order to potentially be repaired..

That being said, most people who come here owned a prebuilt first and then decided they wanted something better.. and ended up doing DIY with the rest of us

 

[taiwwa]

Conflict of interest statement up front:
- I am personally a big fan of Grin for their product quality, open-ness, and innovation.
- Grin pays me to do technical stuff on this website and they financially support the forum.
- Grin has never asked me to say XYZ about them, so i'm giving you the least biased opinion i'm capable of.

Grin does offer a 'to the moon' level of customization on their products and i see how someone could be intimidated by that, especially if they're new to conversions. But the truth is, there's a lot to learn anyway.

Grin is the only ebike parts company that goes out of their way to teach the consumer what he/she needs to know.. and in fact.. this website is indirectly part of that effort.

...but you don't have to buy 'to the moon' from Grin.. or even a matched set of anything.

Typically i build a bike like this, because i'm a frugal person:
- Hub motor usually from Grin since they have the best selection, highest quality stuff, know their product intimately, and list specs unlike most sellers. They also fix problems with the OEM part.
- Torque arms always from Grin, all other torque arms are inferior and i learned long ago to not buy knockoffs because they suck.
- Other kinds of accessories like 'triple bobs', again.. i will buy from Grin first.
- I am partial to em3ev for batteries for their quality to price ratio. But i may venture out for a specialty battery.
- Controller? it depends. The phaserunner and baserunner are very nice controllers but usually i'm driving a very high RPM or high power motor, and i reach for a VESC instead because it can push higher power and also handle any motor i throw at it.
- Cycle analyst/screen? for a Grin kit, i'd go with a superharness and basic bafang display over the cycle analyst v3 any day. I don't like the CA V3 or the idea of a piggyback controller at all. I have a few 'standalone' cycle analysts here and i will use those on other companies' controllers, since those controllers have crappy or non-existent displays.

The beauty of what Grin and other DIY companies sell is that the parts are interchangeable >98% of the time.
Grin uses their own sets of connectors but they sell the other end and you can easily rewire new connectors on any motor.

Grin shines in cases where you have exacting requirements, want high quality parts, and/or want what's cutting edge.


You could buy a pre built ebike, but there's a >95% chance that the prebuilt ebike company has designed in proprietary connectors, parts, and electronic designs intended to prevent you from servicing the bike or replacing any parts.

..if that bike breaks, in many cases, you get to.. either lose the entire ebike.. or completely re-convert it with all new electric parts.. now this bike was way more expensive than the DIY route in that case.

We have thousands of unresolved prebuilt bike repair questions on our forum over the last 3 years due to the covid-era ebike building spree. Zero of the people know what components they have in the first place. most of the components are relabeled or built by a fly by night company, therefore can't even be identified in order to be repaired..

That being said, most people who come here owned a prebuilt first and then decided they wanted something better.. and ended up doing DIY with the rest of us

I understand the merits of Grin, but I'm talking market viability. A grin kit is more expensive than a prebuilt ebike and it requires significant know-how and labor. It would make more sense to me if grin at least partnered with someone who did OEM bikes. Otherwise, are there people out there who have like $6k of grin tech? Who buy like $2k worth a year?

 

[neptronix]

Grin probably partners with a ton of companies that do OEM bikes.
Grin also serves a lot of niches other companies don't.

Getting a grin kit doesn't require much know how at all, they have ready to ride kits that require zero thinking to buy and are unusually easy to install.

There's other companies that also sell hub motor kits that are much cheaper, but, long term support and product quality isn't as good. So the upfront cost is lower, but long term cost is higher when you need a replacement part that literally isn't sold.

You are right that the prebuilt ebike is a good value proposition today - if your bike requirements fall in line with what's totally average, and you don't require any customization. If that's the case, our DIY forum is probably useless to you.

The only problem is, if you don't know what you're doing with selecting one, you will get screwed by the manufacturer in the short or long run and it will cost you more. So the uneducated consumer is not doing any better in that realm.

 

[taiwwa]

Grin probably partners with a ton of companies that do OEM bikes.
Grin also serves a lot of niches other companies don't.

Getting a grin kit doesn't require much know how at all, they have ready to ride kits that require zero thinking to buy and are unusually easy to install.

There's other companies that also sell hub motor kits that are much cheaper, but, long term support and product quality isn't as good. So the upfront cost is lower, but long term cost is higher when you need a replacement part that literally isn't sold.

You are right that the prebuilt ebike is a good value proposition today - if your bike requirements fall in line with what's totally average, and you don't require any customization. If that's the case, our DIY forum is probably useless to you.

The only problem is, if you don't know what you're doing with selecting one, you will get screwed by the manufacturer in the short or long run and it will cost you more. So the uneducated consumer is not doing any better in that realm.

oh, grin is kind of perfect for me actually. But i'm also the kind of guy who can build a bike from parts.

In one of my last group rides there were a few guys who you could tell had spent like $8k at the bike shop but didn't know what they were doing. They would wear spandex but be fat and out of shape. They had some really good carbon bike but didn't know how to change a flat tire.

That's how you make profits in the bike industry. Dumb guys who don't know what they're doing but have lots of money.

 

[neptronix]

Let me put it more simply.

In the computer market, we have...
- Apple computer selling the nice all in one integration, and very nice quality, but at a high cost & with zero repairability, this turns out to be 10-15% of the market.. and has remained a minority for decades because few people turn out to actually prefer this.
- Google selling their cheap, low capability chrome books.. it turns out only ~4% of the market wants these
- The Windows PC ecosystem which is maximally customizable, can run dozens of different OSes, has TONS of parts, and is reasonably priced. This is over 90% of the market, and has been for 3 decades now.

In the computer market, most people chose the equivalent of a DIY ebike.. customizability and repairability is king.

They usually try the equivalent of the Apple or Google computer first and then decide they actually wanted the Windows PC ecosystem.

..yet the Apple ecosystem still has it's die hard fanboys.

And a lot of markets are like that, they have different segments that serve a different kind of customer.

In one of my last group rides there were a few guys who you could tell had spent like $8k at the bike shop but didn't know what they were doing. They would wear spandex but be fat and out of shape. They had some really good carbon bike but didn't know how to change a flat tire.

That's how you make profits in the bike industry. Dumb guys who don't know what they're doing but have lots of money.

Yeah i don't understand this mentality at all.
In the ebike market, there's kind of a linear pricing as you increase the capability of the ebike.
In the regular bike market, there's an exponential price increase in increased bike capability, at the extreme end of that curve, you're paying $1k per 1% speed/efficiency improvement.

I'm the kinda guy who puts expensive ebike kit on a $250 bike. Doesn't make sense to focus on pedal power efficiency when the motor is doing over 90% of the work

Different strokes for different folks though..

 

[E-HP]

I guess the issue for me is that these kits require quite a bit of know-how. I myself haven't gotten around to ordering one yet because of the amount of work that it would take to implement it, plus the expense is rather high. In contrast, I could buy an ebike from aventon or vvolt or priority, do some light assembly, and be ready in a fraction of the time. Also, the tariffs are a problem...

They do provide all of the “ know how” on their site, which no other retailer comes close to, and their products are fully documented with manuals and are designed to work together. So combined with the knowledge they spread freely, whether it’s to their customers or general public, anyone can put together a system that’s actually meets their unique requirements through informed decisions. Luckily you, even as a non customer can benefit from what they offer for free, as well as benefitting from this forum site. They’re a business, but one of their primary products is promoting the EV industry, and especially the DIY aspects, rather than pure profit. My guess is that “profit” is mainly reinvested in providing the information and tools they develop and share.
Their prices and shipping may be higher, but I try to buy from them when I need certain quality parts, knowing my money is not only going to line someone’s pockets.

 

[docw009]

In my early days as an ebike hobbyist, I aspired to Grin gear but I didn't have the budget. I bought direct from china and it turned out to meet my modest requirements for cheap ebiking,

I did buy some quality 20" x 60mm rims from Grin that no one else carried, but their regen motors don't appeal to me.

I would refer people to their articles. As a knowledge base, they are invaluable, but you can't make money from giving that info away. If you say they're doing well, that's great. I know they expanded about 8 years ago, More power (and money) to them. It's a world of sharks.

 

[E-HP]

I could buy an ebike from aventon or vvolt or priority, do some light assembly, and be ready in a fraction of the time.

This is actually the answer for you. The important thing is to get one and start riding. DIY is definitely not for everyone. Although several folks come to this forum with zero knowledge, but high desire, and with that extra bit of enthusiasm, they are able to buy a generic kit and convert their old bike and add that “grin” to their faces, and never realize that Grin made that possible for them.

 

[2old]

I've been interested in a Grin kit for years and have really enjoyed their "tools", but since I ride almost exclusively off road, mid-drives are more viable for me. I had an opportunity to test a ton of "hubbies" on road and dirt and found them to be inferior in MTB applications. I did have fun off road with a front Shengyi 350w and a rear 250w MXUS though.

 

[lnanek]

At least here in the cell phone industry we employees are often told we make premium devices because there's no profit margin to be had on the cheap ones. The cheap ones have endless competitors who will do what they do with the bare minimum in costs and often more in a cheaper country to produce in. So if you aren't making a premium device you have to drop the price to be competitive to the point where it's difficult to actually earn any money.

So doesn't seem unreasonable to me that Grin is super expensive, but still successful. Like no one expects Apple to sell their stuff cheap, right? That's not how you make a successful hardware business on this continent.

In previous decades you could even spend massive amounts on things like employees, deduct all the cost from your profits, and pay no taxes. So it was even a good deal to plow a ton of money into developing something premium. That no longer holds in the US due to tax law changes, but no clue about Canada.

 

[MxusMick]

I bought a used DIY ebike, non running, and taught myself to build my first Ebike with the DD motor and parts all mismatched separate companies. This cost was minimal but the learning experience was invaluable. I have 4 ebikes now and lots of extra parts. Endless Sphere was my Manual and I learned of the Grin Tech Database, simulator, and to the point controller repair videos! Love to GRIN TECH!

 

[gromike]

I built an ebike with a Grin kit, a direct-drive rear hub motor in wheel and a baserunner controller. Super great torque sensing ebike with regen. It was plug and play.

I have also built 3 wheels with their spokes, using their spoke calculator and wheel building video. Use their torque arms too.

 

[taiwwa]

At least here in the cell phone industry we employees are often told we make premium devices because there's no profit margin to be had on the cheap ones. The cheap ones have endless competitors who will do what they do with the bare minimum in costs and often more in a cheaper country to produce in. So if you aren't making a premium device you have to drop the price to be competitive to the point where it's difficult to actually earn any money.

So doesn't seem unreasonable to me that Grin is super expensive, but still successful. Like no one expects Apple to sell their stuff cheap, right? That's not how you make a successful hardware business on this continent.

In previous decades you could even spend massive amounts on things like employees, deduct all the cost from your profits, and pay no taxes. So it was even a good deal to plow a ton of money into developing something premium. That no longer holds in the US due to tax law changes, but no clue about Canada.

Yeah but apple sells their phones at a premium but not that far out of reach compared to android, like a $200 difference for the most common model. Also, apple sells a complete product. Grin would be like as if apple just sold the processor and expected you to assemble the rest of the phone yourself.

Lastly, most of grin’s products are from their oem relationship with Chinese manufacturers. I do like the all axle a lot, but it is an expensive product.

 

[slaphappygamer]

I bought a direct to consumer bike. I knew nothing about e-bikes. Building a bike wasn’t even on my radar. It was too daunting of a task. I haven’t owned a bike in 30 years.

I love hacking things. I learned (still am learning) from this site and grin. I was able to learn enough that I gained the confidence to start upgrading my bike to make it more mine. Went to a KT controller first, added a bunch of accessories, then stepped up my game to install baserunner and cycle analyst. I’m constantly working on my bike. Probably introducing regen to my bike by locking the clutch like Justin had demonstrated. I’ve listened to his talk a bunch of times and have watched all their entire YouTube channel.

 

[E-HP]

Yeah but apple sells their phones at a premium but not that far out of reach compared to android, like a $200 difference for the most common model. Also, apple sells a complete product. Grin would be like as if apple just sold the processor and expected you to assemble the rest of the phone yourself.

Lastly, most of grin’s products are from their oem relationship with Chinese manufacturers. I do like the all axle a lot, but it is an expensive product.

Great. Nobody is trying to convince you to buy from them, you asked the question, and people responded. If the bike you want exists, then buy it. If that doesn’t do what you want, buy another. Just keep riding.
If you benefit at all from this forum, you get that for free; Grin won’t charge you, look for your appreciation, or make you look at ads. They could, but they’d rather promote ebiking than promote themselves, through free discussion and sharing of information.
Buying factory ebikes also promotes ebiking, so if you go that route , post some reviews. If you discover any hacks, post them in the factory ebike hacking subforum. Factory and DIY coexist on ES.
Lastly, stay safe.

 

[biphaeboh]

I wonder how they are going to be affected by tariffs.

 

[neptronix]

There's a legal challenge coming up on USA -> Canadian tariffs that might swing things.
3 months later, still up in the air.

Well, there's no substitute for Grin technologies out there so personally i'm just gonna deal with it either way.

 

[docw009]

I wonder how they are going to be affected by tariffs.

I've read that Grin is upfront about US buyers paying tariffs and their shipping documents allow the the US to assess this tax on the recipient when shipped. Grin isn't collecting the extra money. Canada isn't paying US customs. The US buyers are.

I don't think they will be affected too much. Buyers who are willing to pay a premium for their product will keep on buying,.

 

[biphaeboh]

I've read that Grin is upfront about US buyers paying tariffs and their shipping documents allow the the US to assess this tax on the recipient when shipped. Grin isn't collecting the extra money. Canada isn't paying US customs. The US buyers are.

I don't think they will be affected too much. Buyers who are willing to pay a premium for their product will keep on buying,.

Well that's how tariffs work. It makes things considerably more expensive and grin stuff is already not cheap.
I'm not sure at this point what tariffs will be applied, it seems to be in a state of flux.
There seems to be a certain segment of the DIY community who really don't like Grin, and there are always a few snide comments about them.