How would you write ideal ebike regulations

Some kind of age limit is needed i would say. 300W is not enough for a 100kg rider with 30kg bike. That"s 130kg"s to haul forward, as much as small motorcycle weighs. 48V/1000W is enough for that. 1000W gives that featherlight motorcycle feel too, which is enjoyable. Little speed buzz. It"s very thin line between a bicycle and a moped/motorcycle. Registration is OK IF it does not require that your bike is made by some manufacturer. If only factory bikes are accepted then this gets too elitist and people will choose gas moped over E-bike because gas mopeds are cheap to buy and cheap to run. Image where only middle class people can afford a legal E-bike is a bad image. Good factory E-bikes cost like, 3000-4000 bucks/euros or something. It"s too much for many. A gas moped costs under a grand. Legistlation issue is a hard one. Ultralight aeroplanes example do not require that your plane is factory-made, and they fly out there above us, way more dangerous thing than E-bike. So legistlation has to accept self-made E-bikes for a start.
In my opinion best way to deal with this issue is to announce speed limits on MUT"s and lanes, though i am against speed limits overall. Bikes are bit too difficult to control really. Control actions, not hardware. Speed limit would bring all bikers under the same criteria. On our MUT"s gas mopeds can ride 45 km/h legally, and then EU says E-bike should not go faster than 25 km/h. This is unlogical and crazy, from a safety point of view. Those gas mopeds are way heavier, and they can go faster. High impact power compared to some 25-30kg E-bike. Weight limit would be good possibly.
1. Age limit
2. Weight limit
3. Speed limits on lanes
 
"...what's the big deal about a bike going 35 mph?"

No problem! Except that sometimes vehicles "misbehave" (and animals and people too. At least most plants can be trusted to move not very fast)?

I suppose some humans can sprint (on foot) pretty fast (usually for some short time/distance), but the subject here is perhaps wheeled transportation (that we all know and love)?

And "safety" is a subject usually near and dear to most animals? (Injury or death to be avoided maybe. It's bad enough to do some "damage" to ones self or those we care about, worse still to do any harm, or "inconvenience" others (amimals, plants or others property).

I've been travelling all my life. At first on four limbs perhaps, then on two (and I can still get to most places nearby on two feet/legs. May just take longer, esp depending on distances involved.)

So there's no doubt animals like to travel (for work/hunting/food gathering and for play, etc). I have a first name and my DNA that suggest some in my family were sailors (as recently as myself and my father, and I myself have travelled many thousands of miles on the surface of the water using solar(wind) power), but the subject here is wheeled transportation on land (that I have sailed on as well, and I have sailed across ice covering water.)

So "ebike regulations" are just a subset of wheeled land vehicle transportation rules? (While it seems we're on the subject of "classifying" things generally.)

Falling back on physics (sorry `bout that), the smaller (lighter) a wheeled vehicle, the easier (and cheaper aka "more energy efficient") a vehicle is to accelerate and decelerate, and handle while in motion or stopped, yes? (And when "things go wrong" - things always "go wrong" - see "wearing out", yes?)

So. Do we continue to try to classify things used to assist land travel (vehicles that use one or more wheels - I have ridden a pedalled unicycle too, once several miles one morning), or could we lump them all together perhaps, with regard to the *safety of others*?

Watt gets back to my original point.
L
 
LockH said:
OT maybe. Or maybe some might rudely suggest you didn't understand watt I wrote. Seat belts, air bags etc are NOT designed to protect pedestrians, cyclists, etc, but to encourage some drivers to drive faster maybe? So, there's a chance all vehicle operators will drive safely under all conditions? Watt are the odds? (Feel like gambling? Ya do it EVery day, in traffic.) Anyway, the title of this thread says *ideal* (ebike) regulations. Would not maybe making other vehicle operators more circumspect about their own safety make roads safer for all ebikes (and other road users too)?
L
Click to expand...
Lock has a point in there, that motorists have become more reckless in regard to their fellow road users because vehicles allow them to survive with fewer injuries. Injuries from riding on two wheels haven't changed, and that sense of mortality is a first order behavioral governor.

In 1942, an Iowa constitutional amendment was adopted and the speed limit was defined as "reasonable and proper". That didn't change until 1959 with the advent of the Interstate system of roads. I used to be able to exceed my bicycles' safe speed envelope as a youngster (I was a sprinter on the track team), and can vouch first-hand that my mortality was my guide. I was the first guy in town to start wearing a helmet (brand-name Skid-Lid) and I may have been the reason bicycles were formally banned (illegally) from the state highway that went through town.

I didn't then, and I don't now, need a nanny state to tell me what's safe. I remember reading about NZ reforming their crop subsidies, and the flourishing agricultural markets it spawned as a result. Keep the authorities out of it if at all possible. We don't need no stinkin' badges.

What needs to happen is for motorists piloting potentially deadly weapons to be scared to death of 'discharging' their weapon upon vulnerable road users. That's where the change in legislation needs to happen. Last year, some guy in Iowa got run over from behind on a rural road and left to die in the ditch by a callous motorist who didn't stop. She got a $750 fine. She should properly be behind bars for not preventing the discharging of her deadly weapon upon him, and maybe life for not stopping. Motorists don't drive like there could be a bicyclist in their path because there is little penalty for just running over them.

Motorists need regulation, bicyclists don't (generally).
 
speedmd said:
Ideal would be to have a max un assisted speed on the flats (something like 35 MPH) and assure it has adequate brakes. Anything more is just over complicating things IMO. For kids under say 12-13 years old, maybe 20 -25 mph is more suitable. Getting into power/watts is foolish.
Click to expand...
I agree, they removed the power specification from the Iowa moped law (used to be 1.5 HP) and moved the speed limit from 25 to 30 MPH.
 
"She got a $750 fine." And lost her drivers license for life? And, watts better than a $750 fine? Have her select any one of her relatives (her choice) to be run into by a traffic orificer. For many, $750 is just a band aid or an inconvenience or something. Any "fine" should make *other* ppl (eg other licensed vehicle operators) think carefully BEFORE they want to get into a deadly weapon. (For example, for longer distances, I prefer somebuddy else do the driving, and hope only to not spill my tea or mess my crumpets or something. Plus, larger vehicles come with a washroom, and they don't have to stop for me to do a do do! )
L
PS... Just curious, but what is the fastest anyone on this Spheroid Planet has successfully had a "do do" in motion (air travel or messing in yer own garments doesn't count)
 
Back in the 60's muscle car era insurance companies typically refused to insure factory vehicles rated over 425HP. This resulted in many instances of "fudging" HP numbers by the big 3 and little or no effective control of manufacturer power levels.

When 60-80lb eBikes climb north of 1500-2000W it's fairly obvious (wire gauge, wheelies, 40MPH, etc.)

But, I think concentrating on speed/weight and where it's being operated (traffic roads or bike paths) is the best method to police eBike operation.

Quit focusing on numbers that can and will be too hard to qualify and thus enforce with any practical meaning.
 
LockH said:
"She got a $750 fine." And lost her drivers license for life? And, watts better than a $750 fine? Have her select any one of her relatives (her choice) to be run into by a traffic orificer. For many, $750 is just a band aid or an inconvenience or something. Any "fine" should make *other* ppl (eg other licensed vehicle operators) think carefully BEFORE they want to get into a deadly weapon. (For example, for longer distances, I prefer somebuddy else do the driving, and hope only to not spill my tea or mess my crumpets or something. Plus, larger vehicles come with a washroom, and they don't have to stop for me to do a do do! )
L
PS... Just curious, but what is the fastest anyone on this Spheroid Planet has successfully had a "do do" in motion (air travel or messing in yer own garments doesn't count)
Click to expand...
OK, now you're off topic, Lock. :oops:

She pled guilty to the offense of Failure to Stop at an Assured Clear Distance. Fined $735, no license revocation.
Scroll down to Jan., 3rd:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lenox-Iowa-Police-Department/179320012117649

Bicycles are not the traffic problem, they are the solution. Motorists driving like they're on a controlled-access interstate, instead of paying strict attention, are the problem. Even on the interstate I had people standing on their brakes at the last second when I was going 50 MPH in my Buick (they don't look ahead on the interstate either). Accidents, not. I'll count it as intentional when the norm is not paying attention to where your potentially deadly weapon is piercing time and space.
 
Betcha the line of (idling, gas burning) cars was really long to get to the funeral.
 
My vote is on speed limit instead of watt limit because I think it would be awesome to see more fat/out of shape guys on e-bikes :D .
There should not be a speed limit for shoulder of the road stuff.

I think it would be super cool if they made more NEV (neighborhood electric vehicle) paths for golf carts and bikes and stuff.
 
Let me try to bring this back a bit to what I was originally looking for.

We are a charitable trust that got into ebikes in 2011. We bought and tested a bunch of motors and configurations, and concluded that with the same official rating in watts, some motors were gutless and others were frankly dangerous on a vehicle that had tiny rubber blocks, skinny tyres with no rating (and a propensity to blow out when pushed) and steering/suspension designed for much slower speeds than that achieved by the motor. Generally, the government steps in with regulation when things start going wrong and the public demands action, whereupon the rules sometimes become draconian, sometimes frustrating, and sometimes stupid.

Right now we are seeing a massive jump in ebikes, as new technology makes them much more user friendly and user accessible. Much of this forum is made up of early adopters, but we are probably more qualified to give government advice based on knowledge. However, we need to be clear. "No" is not an option, we will see more regulation. Neither is "should", we lack the numbers and clout to drive legislation. As with any new technology that hits the streets, more regulation will come. We can either help nudge that regulation to the best outcome, or complain and cry in our beers when they stick it to us. I prefer the former.

So far, Dogman's comments have been the most helpful.

The objective is to establish a cut-off point, below which even with a motor, an ebike is considered a bicycle, with all the freedoms that come with it. We get to ride on public streets, with full right to be there, but no registration, no inspection, no licence, no insurance, no standards on brakes, tyres or much of anything else, except in places where we have to wear a silly helmet that will pop off as soon as we get hit by a car or truck. In an increasingly regulated world, it's actually amazing that we can then pop on an electric motor and still be left alone. If we do something stupid, there is no way to even identify us; no plate on our back, no electronic signal with GPS.

But as we go to millions of ebikes, I can promise you, it will change. So do we lead, or do we follow?

I have to say that a Cellman 500W 10TMac motor with a 50V battery and Infinion 6fet controller is remarkably fast for a 185 pound male riding a Gary Fisher MTB on a winding country road. At 30mph, I had some serious doubts about my long-term mortality. Where folks on this thread propose 1000W motors; if those motors are anything like Cellman's, as much as I love his stuff (and BTW, he is now carrying the Bafang BBS01/02 Mid motor kits), my sense is that a proliferation of such gear on the streets will result in the sort of stuff that brings on regulation.

I am tending to think we should have more classes of bikes.

  • Pedal bike, no motor, no rules
  • Ebike low-power, no rules [The key question then is what is "low power"?]
  • Ebike hi-power, sensible rules written so that such bikes and their riders are neither a hazard to themselves or others [Key question, what rules?]
  • Ebike specialist. This includes three wheelers, HD utility vehicles and other stuff that needs a lot of boost not to go fast, but move bulk [Ditto]
  • Ebike children. Rules that acknowledge kids fall off of bikes, do stupid things, have poor judgement and need additional protection. [Ditto]

Related equipment questions:
For example, should some ebikes be required to have rear view mirrors? I use them and find them very helpful.
Should some have turn signals (since few drivers know what hand signals are anymore)?
Should hi-powered bikes be required to have DOT tyres, disk or roller brakes, other technology to keep those bikes safely on the road?

So, let's try to work within a box that presumes governments will do what governments do... make regulations, and then let's explore what we can get them to see the threshold above which regulations are appropriate, and how best to express that in language.
 
Being in the UK we already have what I would consider to be the low power ebike rules, max 250w continues 15mph, although the majority of "legal" bikes here are the 18mph euro spec so that maybe a more appropriate standard.
I do agree we should have the other classes too, but for someone to be allowed to legally use a heavy weight hauler or higher powered ebike there has to be some recognition of ability. Without creating a new vehicle test or licence class it may be best to say anyone who has passed any driving test either car or motorcycle can ride the higher power classes. Disc brakes and 25mph limit should be sufficient, pedals not required. no additional regulations on lighting or tyres or we are going to end up with electric mopeds, mot tests, road tax and insurance, this has to be kept very simple! But it could pave the way to a lot more users which would be a very good thing.
 
greenspark said:
  • Pedal bike, no motor, no rules
  • Ebike low-power, no rules [The key question then is what is "low power"?]
  • Ebike hi-power, sensible rules written so that such bikes and their riders are neither a hazard to themselves or others [Key question, what rules?]
  • Ebike specialist. This includes three wheelers, HD utility vehicles and other stuff that needs a lot of boost not to go fast, but move bulk [Ditto]
  • Ebike children. Rules that acknowledge kids fall off of bikes, do stupid things, have poor judgement and need additional protection. [Ditto]

Related equipment questions:
For example, should some ebikes be required to have rear view mirrors? I use them and find them very helpful.
Should some have turn signals (since few drivers know what hand signals are anymore)?
Should hi-powered bikes be required to have DOT tyres, disk or roller brakes, other technology to keep those bikes safely on the road?

.
Click to expand...

The problem is there are so many different bicycles out there for a conversion. But not all would withstand the same motor power.
I would consider all bicycles capable to withstand 1hp 750watt this is considerable as low power.

I would also write special rules for Hi power corvetts and lamborginis to cut there power to 100hp :pancake:
 
Interesting...

Do we continue to try to classify things used to assist land travel, or could we lump them all together perhaps, with regard to the *safety of others*?
Click to expand...

and:
I am tending to think we should have more classes of bikes.
Click to expand...

One of these opinions is open to wide user "fudging" (hidden modifications, etc. to jump into other "classifications" via illegal means).

Maybe? Or requires more user license exams, tests to certify compliance with "Class W", or "Class X.45"...
 
I have to agree, the cellman 10T with 50v and 6 fet controller is most likely putting out 1200w into the controller. That's perky! 500w is a meaningless marking on the motor that means you won't overheat it if you give it 500w on flat ground. It's definitely bordering on moped class, and a lot perkier than my 70's motobecane gas moped was. But it's also about the minimum practical for use in a really mountainous place too, unless you are blessed with eternal youth and good health. ( I'm 55 and seriously handicapped with bad health, so I need lots of help to keep riding.)

But speed should be limited by speed limits for the road, not limits on the ability to give it throttle and get out of trouble. How fast you get to whatever the posted limit is for that road should not be limited by a gutless low watt limit, not for adults.

Absolutely, at some point they should require dot tires, some kind of drivers license, too young age limits, etc. Above 2000w, it could get quite dangerous. I've worn out a bike tire in 40 min on a "hot" ebike. But there are good arguments for drawing that line closer to 1000w. I would like to see 1200w legal though, because a fairly tame 48v 20 amps controller puts out 1200w. The industry won't start making 18 amps controllers any time soon because one country made 1000w the limit. They just put that 500w label on the motor. :roll:

One thing is very true, and I've seen this thousands of times. People get a motorcycle, take a class, and get their motorcycle license. And then they are a menace for years, if not for life. Because they never learn to ride. This won't be any different with e bikes. Limiting people to 300w or whatever won't solve it. They will be a menace with 300w or 3000w. When they get surprised by something on the road, they grab brakes and hit something. They have no clue how to ride around trouble and not hit stuff.
 
OK then... Perhaps folks on the Spheroid Planet might agree on the thought that the gov issues a license for the *operator* of a vehicle (any vehicle, same lic), and said license is printed the same way as Canada currently prints "paper" currency (they don't use paper any more, plus "embed" on/in each bill various difficult to copy "inkmarks" or wattever.) In other words, "wallet sized" w/a pic of the operators face plus the name and city of somebody that issued that doc. And licenses are only handed out after... for example one year of studying and operating various land-based vehicles/.

Any land-based vehicle operator found not having a legit op license on their person (could be imbedded under their skin)... There is one graduated penalty. First offence, one finger or toe (of their choice). Second offence, one more digit. Having had all fingers and toes removed, one ear. This approach is cheaper than branding plus vehicle rental companies be circumspect more who they rent to (eg charge more (and rebate some, for good behaviour such as maint receipt records - sorry, accountant in me speaking).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_branding

Plus DogMasters canine friends get all the munchies they might like. Diff added flavours at some small extra cost. Exotic (foreign) bits, small extra cost.

Lots of folks would object to this approach... "Draconian", etc, etc, perhaps depending on how many pets, family members, neighbours, co-workers, (taxpayers),etc etc they have either lost completely or who have been "inconvenienced" (for the rest of their life) by unthinking vehicle operators.
 
Pedal bike, no motor, no rules
Ebike low-power, no rules [The key question then is what is "low power"?]
Ebike hi-power, sensible rules written so that such bikes and their riders are neither a hazard to themselves or others [Key question, what rules?]
Ebike specialist. This includes three wheelers, HD utility vehicles and other stuff that needs a lot of boost not to go fast, but move bulk [Ditto]
Ebike children. Rules that acknowledge kids fall off of bikes, do stupid things, have poor judgement and need additional protection. [Ditto]
Click to expand...

Pedal bikes follow motor vehicle rules in operation most places when on the road. Flying through stop lights or signs will get you busted and points added to your licence in many places. Hit someone with faulty / poor working brakes, and the ambulance chasers will have their way with you also. They have to meet basic safety requirements through the manufacture and trade standards. We should be establishing the same here on low and high powered categories and have the cops only involved in keeping check on the speeders/ reckless behavior side of things. The more we can keep the functional illiterates out of the motor/controller side of things the better off we will all be. I can easily pedal my bike up past 30mph (no problem holding it for a minute or two depending on the wind) and do not think a 20mph rule is at all relevant safety wise when adding a little motor that pushes you a bit past 25 mph. The EU 20mph rule is just bogus IMO. Millions on the road now and the sky has not fallen in yet. Interesting to see what the oil and auto lobbies start pushing for when they start feeling the trends impact.
 
Ummm... Has anyone noticed the "motor vehicle rules" haven't been working awfully well?
 
It's true, all the motor vehicle laws for how you ride or drive do apply to bicycles too in my state. By that I mean stop signs, one way signs, move down the right side of the road, and speed limits. They are ignored by many drivers, and in my town ignored the most by bicyclists. As a teen, part of how I learned to obey traffic laws on a bicycle was this one cop in town who loved to ticket kids for speeding or running a stop sign on bicycles.

Now, nobody pays much attention. They run red lights with cops watching them. Growing up, you drove like that you got lots of tickets. Now you do not.
 
I'd be in favour of no weight or wattage limits.

25 kph limit for 16/17 year old youths.

50 kph limit from 18 years of age plus.

40 kph limit if you are carrying a trailer over 100kg.

A stringent licence required for anything faster.

No electric assist for under 16's. :mrgreen:

All speed limits are for powered assist only.
Click to expand...

The no weight/wattage limit is the perfect one-size fits all solution. It allows for heavy cargo bicycles, the heavy-duty bicycle trailers that can carry up to 280kg, passengers and the large Dutch tricycles that can be in excess of 150kg before you add either a cyclist or cargo. It also doesn't penalise velomobiles.
 
I am totaly and absolute against assist aka pedal forced by law.
This is what keeps the lazy and or fat in there cars.
The freedom of choice if you want a little exercise in the last mile of your journey or the complete journey should be a fundamental right.
 
Yah. Watt Dog Meister said... Possibly (likely) one sentient homo sapien still staggering around in this Alt Universe. The "traffic" (vehicle operators) on roads, etc may be one pubic (sp?) sphere where confusion still reigns supreme, and for some, provides constant opportunities to laugh (and/or cry).

PS. Still looking for human cadaver bodies (usually found lying around traffic accidents, finally minding their own business) to send some bits for his puppies to test. (Crunchy bones left in, or smooth flavour, little bones removed.)
 
Yeah Lock ithink i got your point :D
I watch too all these funny? accidents on LL here a resent example of recless idioty which i observe sporadic similar in my ebike rides from car drivers in my town.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=96e_1391183473
He overtakes in this conditions with a car fullk of persons in a corner. Same idiots drive here in my town doing the same till they end like these.
 
parajared said:
As far as I know, there is no law against hot-rodding a Model T and driving down the freeway at 75mph. I presume that people driving vehicles ill equipped to handle highway speeds isn't enough of a problem that we need laws for it.
Click to expand...

"Ill equipped"... You mean like, brakes not properly maintained? Nah, I'm sure every body keeps their brakes in "tip top" condition!
 
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