Idea: Using/carving/making airless tire concept as tireliner

[bowlofsalad]

Hello,

I've been considering the idea of putting a old bicycle tire as a tire liner ('the system'). I have been pondering on the various options for tires as a tire liner, because surely there are tremendous amounts of variation in options and how they would effect your ride. Originally I was considering the idea of using tires with shaved down knobbies and no kevlar belt, so basically a very light weight mountain bike tire. This might produce a really extreme gap inside of the tire. People seem to say that marathon plus tires are very good at preventing flats. The idea behind that is that they use a very tough material and a lot of it to make the tire thick and hard to penetrate. I imagine that this tough tire insert as it may make the tire very unforgiving to bumps and vibrations. I imagine that instead of using something very hard, to use something very soft. Others have used things like thorn proof inner tubes as liners. The issues with pretty much every concept is their weight.

I imagine it might be the best of both worlds to use airless tires that are made to be like they are very soft as tire liners. I was inspired for this concept when looking opening a new spindle of blank discs. The spindle had a round foamy thing with a hole in the center, sort of like a washer. I doubt this bubbly foam stuff would be suitable in bike tires with the amount of pressure that would be pressed against them, but that might work too, who knows. Basically, I am thinking that very light, bubbly material of appropriate thickness might be the ideal tire liner.

While I imagine a tougher liner might help in some situations, the tougher stuff may still be punctured by longer things as it gets hammered into the tire regardless of how tough it is, and that the only thing that will prevent a flat is a larger gap between the what is going through the outside of the tire and the inner tube. Something else that might be hard to explain, I imagine if there are little bubbles in whatever is being used as the tire liner, that smaller sharp things like pieces of glass would stay in the tiny bubble, unable to dig deeper, a theory that could be wrong.

Maybe I am being silly and trying to reinvent the wheel and should just use some thorn proof inner tubes as tire liners. But the concept sounds good to me. A soft, flexible, somewhat thick, lightweight tire insert.

 

[dogman dan]

What exactly is your flat problem?

Tougher tires can be good if it's junk and small glass in the road. The system, or just thicker tubes are highly effective against short thorns like goatheads. Slime and thick tubes can work ok for really long thorns, and smaller nails.

But get into piles of sheetrock screws, roofing nails, framing nails, bottoms of bottles, it's just going to slash up the tires no matter what. I have finally learned about one spot on a route I travel fairly often, and stop to clean up that corner regularly now. Right by the driveway of a construction workers house. That corner got my car tires several times.

I wondered at one point about using foam sleeping pads for tire liners, but then realized that even tough foam will just compress to nothing eventually.

I've seen plastic tire liners so tough, they tend to slash up tubes themselves. I wondered about using them with the system, between the two tires.

In the end, I just went to thick tubes, and lots and lots of chunky slime. No lighter than the system, but I can pump more air in and get home with enough slime. The thorns I ride through are long but narrow, so the slime works good enough on them. Sometimes a really long thorn punctures the top of the tube, and then it works poorly.

 

[Chalo]

People seem to say that marathon plus tires are very good at preventing flats. The idea behind that is that they use a very tough material and a lot of it to make the tire thick and hard to penetrate.

The Schwalbe Marathon Plus has a two-part protection system. The normal part that is in common with many utility bicycle tires is a Kevlar belt wrapped around the tire carcass underneath the tread. It's a tough, high strength fibrous material that is difficult to cut or tear.

The second, less common part is a thick, soft, blue polyurethane rubber belt of about 6mm maximum thickness, laid between the textile Kevlar belt and the black tread rubber. This outer protective belt is actually pretty easy to violate. But because it's made of non-traction rubber, it's much more likely to eject whatever objects work their way in than an equivalent thickness of tread rubber. Its main protection is dimensional-- that is, a thorn or glass splinter must be longer than the total thickness of tread, rubber belt, textile belt, and tire casing before it can reach the tube.

All flat preventives come with performance and ride quality penalties attached. None of the add-on preventives I have seen offer as much protection with as little harm to speed or ride quality as an intelligently armored tire. But as dogman points out, the specific hazards you face will dictate the most effective measures you can take against them.

 

[dogman dan]

That does sound like a good design for a flat free tire.

Back in the day, riding thin road racing tires in the land of thorns, I used to love my sticker flickers. Remember them? A small wire hoop that just brushed the tire attached to the brake mount? They worked beautifully on goatheads, flicking them off the tire before they could work in deep enough to flat the tire. Typically one pass didn't press the thorn deep enough to get the tube, so the flicker would remove them before the second pass under the weight of the rider.

It was the only "system" that didn't have the ride quality penalty I ever knew. Now, riding dirt, I just have to run crazy quantities of slime. The bike literally hops the first 50 feet after it's been parked.

Another crazy scheme I have pondered, Get some very pliable caulking, such as real butylene window glazing. This stuff stays the consistency of hot bubble gum on a sidewalk permanently. Apply a 1/8 thick layer to the tread area of the tire, then install with tube or tubeless. When a small hole is made, hopefully the goo would then squeeze in eventually sealing much like slime. If something big happens to the tube, like a stem tear, tough shit. The whole assembly would be tossed.

Still be at least as heavy as slime. Butylene also comes in strips like tape, for window installing on trailers.

 

[Lebowski]

how about a large wheel sized circular sping in the (outer)tire, replacing the inner tire ?

 

[bowlofsalad]

I don't have a flat problem myself, I like to think of new approaches to things. I am often pondering options for flat prevention, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I've read about this story before about the guy carelessly dropping screws from his pick up truck. That is very irresponsible. Not drunk/distracted driving irresponsible, but a pretty bad thing to do. I think I'd have a nice chat with the guy, maybe have a solution to prevent things from falling from his truck. I'd assume he just tosses buckets and boxes of nails and screws in the back, and some of them pop open. Maybe he wants them to fall out so he doesn't have to pick them up, maybe he hates cyclists and has a very "I OWN this road" mentality. I'd still at least try and talk to him.

I have no idea how well a spring would work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbXCKhRTGKc Kind of reminds me of this. I'd be interested to try this spring idea though. I wonder how putting the tire on with the spring would go.

We seem to like using air pressure because it's easily adjustable and it may provide some cushion. I've wondered several times to what point would it be silly to continue trying to ride with air. I've never ridden on airless tires before, all I know is they aren't a solid mass of rubber. I am basing this on the picture I attached. Thinking of running over lots and lots of long splintery things like thorns and screws would probably give me pause on sticking with innertubes. What I am suggesting is, cut that sort of thing in half round it's diameter, put it in your tire along with an innertube and you might have a pleasant middle ground.

I wonder what kind of tire size variation there is to allow users to fit stuff inside. When we talk about tires, I only know of two dimensions, width and diameter. Maybe an outer and inner diameter would be useful information. For example, 559x597x60 I suppose the outer diameter would be relative and kind of hard to state, but it may give an implication of what sort of things you could pack inside.

I've never had to change a flat tire on a hub motor wheel with closed mouth torque arms, but that seems like it would be an incredible pain in the ass and it is something I strongly want to avoid just as I am sure no body wants a flat ever.

"I've seen plastic tire liners so tough, they tend to slash up tubes themselves. I wondered about using them with the system, between the two tires." I've pondered the same thing. But, I end up thinking that it's probably thickness we want instead of hardness or toughness in a tireliner. This is part of the reason why I like knobbie tires at all, they add a large gap, to use these tires or tires like them as flat protection may be an interesting experiment, a very soft knobbie tire that would provide a large gap between the ground and the innertube that wouldn't be heavy.

"Its main protection is dimensional" I think at the end of the day that is what counts, when you run over something sharp, it's probably going to go through most things, but maybe I am wrong about stuff like tire liners. Tire liners+knobbie tire/airless tube cut in half may be a great system.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

We seem to like using air pressure because it's easily adjustable and it may provide some cushion. I've wondered several times to what point would it be silly to continue trying to ride with air.

that's not the reason why.
it's for the very unsilly reason of safety, particularly during braking.
that's why when mr. dunlop invented the idea it was & is such a huge breakthru in the advancement of the wheel that i can't see pneumatic going away anytime soon if ever.

a much better writer than me explains it the best & put it into proper perspective for me so i'll borrow his words.

Paraphrasing from Sheldon Brown's article up above in blue font, the airless tire has, as active shock absorber, only the sectional area of the tire in instant contact with the road.

The basic reason why inserts and foam core tires suck, is that they are not but a fraction as resilient as a pneumatic tire.

That is: the WHOLE of the air volume of an aired tire acts as a spring and a damper.
Your bike hubs -hang- your vehicle in the center of an entirely aired circle of suspension.

an aired tire has a progressive compressibility, using as the spring, the entire volume of air within the tube.

how about a large wheel sized circular sping in the (outer)tire, replacing the inner tire ?

this shape of spring looks like it would work better.

[youtube]yWcJLMnavww[/youtube]
personally i would love to have this.
but only on the back wheel since (in my whole time ebiking) it's almost exclusively the rear tyre that ever gets punctured.
i wouldn't have it in the front for the reduction in braking as previously noted.
since the rear doesn't contribute as much to braking, plus having regen in the back i expect it shouldn't be much of a compromise but would want to test drive for a while if i could live with it.
worst case i would wrap it with a tubless tire skin & run pneumatic with the erw as run flat insurance.


DIY & $AVE!!!!!!!!!!!!
[youtube]HB4fOyXox4E[/youtube]

 

[Hwy89]

Dogman wrote: " Back in the day, riding thin road racing tires in the land of thorns, I used to love my sticker flickers. Remember them? A small wire hoop that just brushed the tire attached to the brake mount? They worked beautifully on goatheads, flicking them off the tire before they could work in deep enough to flat the tire. Typically one pass didn't press the thorn deep enough to get the tube, so the flicker would remove them before the second pass under the weight of the rider.˝

Hey dogman, any idea where a person could buy a set of these "sticker flickers"? Or would it be difficult to make a set? I am completely over-run with goat heads this year. I can't even get out of my driveway without picking up dozens of them. I'm getting by with the thick Slime tubes and the green plastic liners from Slime but having something that would scrape the damn things off sounds like a good idea. How noisy are the "sticker flickers"?

 

[bowlofsalad]

Dogman wrote: " Back in the day, riding thin road racing tires in the land of thorns, I used to love my sticker flickers. Remember them? A small wire hoop that just brushed the tire attached to the brake mount? They worked beautifully on goatheads, flicking them off the tire before they could work in deep enough to flat the tire. Typically one pass didn't press the thorn deep enough to get the tube, so the flicker would remove them before the second pass under the weight of the rider.˝

Hey dogman, any idea where a person could buy a set of these "sticker flickers"? Or would it be difficult to make a set? I am completely over-run with goat heads this year. I can't even get out of my driveway without picking up dozens of them. I'm getting by with the thick Slime tubes and the green plastic liners from Slime but having something that would scrape the damn things off sounds like a good idea. How noisy are the "sticker flickers"?

I wasn't 100% certain what he meant by sticker flickers. http://www.compasscycle.com/tires_wipers.html I think this is what he was talking about.

@Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh It sounds like were on the same page. I sort of want to go half and half instead of like 10% puncture protection and 90% air.

I've e-mailed the makers of that tire a handful of times. I would like them to tell me things like rolling resistance and to send me one to test with, but they don't seem like they want to share or talk about it. I'd like to see some serious science around those tires. Rolling resistance testing and perhaps some kind of weight and bounce testing.

 

[dogman dan]

That's them. Cool that they still exist. They worked great on slick road tires. Still have some on my wifes 40 year old gitane. They are noisy if you have any tread on the tire.

We finally got some rain here, and the last two weeks I've been waging a genocidal war on goatheads. Spraying roundup, then lots of raking to restore a walkway next to the paved street for my dog to walk on. There is about a quarter mile of this, till I get to the bike trail I run the dog on every morning. Last year I was so sick I didn't do it, and have regretted it for a full year.

 

[Hwy89]

Thanks for the link. After looking at the pictures I think I have everything needed to make a set of tire wipers. Problem is that I'm running knobby tires and they will be noisey.
At the risk of hi-jacking this topic into a discussion of goat heads; last fall I got a propane weed burner torch and went on a goat head eradication rampage resulting in about an acre and a half of scorched earth. It was gratifying to burn the little buggers up and afterword a lot safer to walk and ride. The remaining thorns were blunt and didnt stick to tires and shoes. Unfortunately, it appears that the heat didn't prevent them from germinating and with this summer's rains they are back, twice as thick as before. RoundUp and Eliminator kill the green parts but they seem to grow back within weeks. I am now using needle nose pliars to pluck them out one at a time. Ten square yards cleared, one acre left to go. I would much rather be out riding my bike than pulling weeds.

 

[cal3thousand]

Thanks for the link. After looking at the pictures I think I have everything needed to make a set of tire wipers. Problem is that I'm running knobby tires and they will be noisey.
At the risk of hi-jacking this topic into a discussion of goat heads; last fall I got a propane weed burner torch and went on a goat head eradication rampage resulting in about an acre and a half of scorched earth. It was gratifying to burn the little buggers up and afterword a lot safer to walk and ride. The remaining thorns were blunt and didnt stick to tires and shoes. Unfortunately, it appears that the heat didn't prevent them from germinating and with this summer's rains they are back, twice as thick as before. RoundUp and Eliminator kill the green parts but they seem to grow back within weeks. I am now using needle nose pliars to pluck them out one at a time. Ten square yards cleared, one acre left to go. I would much rather be out riding my bike than pulling weeds.

Those Damned GMO goatheads! I bet Monsanto will sue you if they are found growing in your yard.... But I digress.

To me, tire liners do not add any noticeable penalty (Especially the Mr Tuffys) but do provide an additional margin of protection by stopping the entry into the tube and allowing your tire pressure to spit the offending piece out. Gotta keep the tires aired up fairly high, but that's how I like to ride anyways.

 

[The fingers]

But get into piles of sheetrock screws, roofing nails, framing nails, bottoms of bottles, it's just going to slash up the tires no matter what. I have finally learned about one spot on a route I travel fairly often, and stop to clean up that corner regularly now. Right by the driveway of a construction workers house. That corner got my car tires several times.

I use a magnet on a rope to pick up nails and screws at intersections and along my route so I don't have to dismount. :wink:

 

[cal3thousand]

But get into piles of sheetrock screws, roofing nails, framing nails, bottoms of bottles, it's just going to slash up the tires no matter what. I have finally learned about one spot on a route I travel fairly often, and stop to clean up that corner regularly now. Right by the driveway of a construction workers house. That corner got my car tires several times.

I use a magnet on a rope to pick up nails and screws at intersections and along my route so I don't have to dismount. :wink:

Thats a neat idea. Would probably help with setting off the ground sensors at left turn lights instead of waiting for a cager to come by.

 

[bowlofsalad]

@Hwy89 I am curious if wipers would work with knobbie tires.

@The fingers I am working on carrying around a little dust pan and broom. I often find little piles of glass on the ground that are nearly invisible, picking up tiny fragments of broken glass is pretty difficult with gloved hands or even bare hands, but sweeping them up should be a breeze.

 

[justlooking]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUIVJliI2xk

Spear gun rubber powered wheel. Stretch... a completely new take on wheeled travel.

[youtube]v=UUIVJliI2xk[/youtube]

 

[swbluto]

Foam rubber insert tube + Loop wheels is one possibility. Thorn proof and suspension is built into the wheel. Problem is they don't seem to have a 26" version yet, just 20".

[youtube]l0_P2mLV7nI[/youtube]

The other effective alternative seems to be the FlatBlocker Max (A really thick inner tube with slime) + Tire liner + Armadillo tires. Not indestructible, but about as good as protection one can get with a tube.

Another alternative is the NoTubes Stan Tire sealant. Problem with that seems to be you need to refill the tire every 2-3 months as the liquid evaporates and I get the impression the system won't work with some tires.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUIVJliI2xk

Spear gun rubber powered wheel. Stretch... a completely new take on wheeled travel.

[youtube]v=UUIVJliI2xk[/youtube]

their early prototype

 

[justlooking]

their early prototype

brilliant

 

[bowlofsalad]

Thanks Justlooking and Swbluto.

Very interesting videos and ideas. I am not sure if loopwheels have anything to do with flat protection, but they are still interesting looking. Their kickstarter says they use standard rims, hubs and tires. That is a bit of a surprise, at least concerning the rims. I wonder how the rim stays true and round, seems like they'd need a special very very strong rim.

@Swbluto http://www.amazon.com/Bell-Flatblocker-Max-Inner-Tube/dp/B009Z7N1IC Is this what you are referring to? I couldn't find anything on "Flatmax Blocker". Are you suggesting tubeless tires with stans or to put the stans sealant in an innertube? I suppose stans in both tubeless and innertubes are an option, certainly ones I am considering myself. I was just talking about this in another thread. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=48275

The suggestion I made was to add a 50/50 mix (or greater towards the fluid side), or some sort of fluid every few months to an inner tube with stans in it. Sort of like how your tube will go flat without adding air even without being punctured, I guess stans (and maybe all tubeless or innertube sealant) will dry out. There seem to be other options for these ideas.
http://www.mtbr.com/cat/accessories/extras/stans-notubes/tire-and-rim-sealant/prd_362558_117crx.aspx
http://www.mtbr.com/cat/tires-and-wheels/tube/slime/tire-sealant/prd_353521_154crx.aspx
http://www.mtbr.com/cat/tires-and-wheels/tubeless-tire/orange-seal-cycling/tubeless-sealant/prd_493226_1508crx.aspx
http://www.mtbr.com/cat/tires-and-wheels/tubeless-tire/stans-notubes/best-tubeless-sealing-kit/prd_360761_1508crx.aspx
Another option that I've read about is a mr. tuffy version of tire sealant.

I couldn't say what the best all around option is, but the ratio to tire protection:air volume would be an interesting figure, but one that might be hard to determine.

 

[justlooking]

i was asking about puncher prevention ideas on here a couple of months ago and came to the conclusion that it was not worth bothering with,
when i go out on my bike i always carry spare parts in a bag on the handlebars, puncher repair kit ,innertubes, spare motorbelts ,,and now a small cheap lightweight 12v pump that i can run off of the bike battery by using a voltage dropper, and a couple of spanners and allenkeys. its all light weight and dont use much space,
they would all fit into some of those saddle bags,

 

[swbluto]

Thanks Justlooking and Swbluto.

Very interesting videos and ideas. I am not sure if loopwheels have anything to do with flat protection

The rubber foam 'inner tubes' don't provide the same suspension benefit of regular air inner tubes, so that's where the suspension wheel comes in. It's a shame that the technology can't be easily applied to hub motors - then again, with enough work and ingenuity, it seems like they could.

And, I was referring to the original intended application of Stan's NoTubes sealant - NoTubes or, in other words, tubeless tires. It seems like another member is having problems with using the sealant inside of inner tubes, which isn't what it's intended for. I don't understand how they'd prevent flats, but apparently a number of Amazonians haven't experienced any with the sealant.