If you could reset the speed/power limit what would it be?

[chopper_elec]

Hey all,

I'm just a fellow electric bike enthuasiast and wanted to see what your opinions are to a new rule/power limit if you could redo it.

I'm curious to see more justifiable values, although 10kw bicycles would be sweet it may be a bit too far from reality as a max wattage haha.

Personally i'd see the power limit raised up to 48v and 500w.

I know they say a decent rider can put out 250w+ at full pelt, but they are also capable of 50-60km an hour riding speeds.

If I can ride faster than the bicycle motor can put out it needs more power (and I have legs like a toothpick lol)

I'm hoping I can bring something to the forum, with only 17 posts i'm still very new around here.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I'm actually not concerned with a speed limit of 20-MPH. If you're riding safely, you can easily go 25-MPH and nobody is likely to care. But as for power...NO POWER LIMIT! Its nuts for a mom on a cargobike with a kid and two bags of groceries to be expected top tackle a hill SAFELY with even 750W. A power limit is unmeasurable by field officers, and it is unenforceable.

 

[chopper_elec]

I'm actually not concerned with a speed limit of 20-MPH. If you're riding safely, you can easily go 25-MPH and nobody is likely to care. But as for power...NO POWER LIMIT! Its nuts for a mom on a cargobike with a kid and two bags of groceries to be expected top tackle a hill SAFELY with even 750W. A power limit is unmeasurable by field officers, and it is unenforceable.

Definitely a valid point there. At 250w any hill is really quite a challenge, i've seen friends in the past have issues with not being able to ride due to health concerns and I am not sure why someone should have to rotate their feet just to enable the motor to run.

Its difficult for the majority of people to keep having to proof themselves out on the tracks.

I love going on Bicycle tracks and from around my area they look deserted, I could do laps up and around and

The general consideration is always to give way to pedestrians and if i'm doing 25mph pedalling or cycling either way the bicyle will stop nearly the same (bar the extra weight of the batteries).

 

[amberwolf]

Personally I don't see a need for any limit at all. As long as it has functional pedals on it, it's a bicycle.

But unfortunately so do mopeds (after a fashion), so as far as law defining vehicles for registration/limiting purposes, there's either got to be a limit somewhere to define the difference between them, legally, or else say there is no difference and call all power-assisted bikes mopeds.

Problem I have with that is that at least here you have to have a motorcycle license and insurance to ride a moped, and they also have to be registered and plated, etc., just like a motorcycle. If I have to do all that, I might as well just ride a regular old gas motorcycle.

If mopeds didn't require a license/registration/insurance, then I'd be all for classing them and power assisted bikes together, and removing the limits on power/speed.


If most people had sense, I don't think that there's any good reason to limit speed below that of the road you're on. But you'd also have to have brakes, tires, suspension, and other things that would handle the roads and speeds, and rider sensibilities to go with it. Honestly, I am not sure that most people have much business riding that fast even on a regular bike or even driving that fast in cars, based on what I see around me every day. But people are people, and they'll do what they do whether they should or not.

Anyway, as I said, I would just remove the limits--I really don't see the need for them, except to give some people power over others, and to garner more money for governments to misuse.

 

[ddk]

-considering standard bicycle components, I don't mind my local's limits of 20mph with a 1000w motor limit.
Both limits are at the the top edge of what should reliably be expected of most bicycle frames and brakes.

 

[Jeremy Harris]

There's a massive range of legal limits that apply to various members of this forum, so it's hard to be specific without mentioning the country/state/region that someone lives in.

Limits that I know of range from the 200 watt/15 mph one that used to apply here (it's now 250 watt/25 kph, in common with most of Europe) through some states in the USA where limits seem to range around the 750 watt - 1000 watt mark with speeds of around 20 mph to 30 mph, to places like Costa Rica where there are, apparently, no limits at the moment and some places (New York?) where electric bikes are just illegal. I think Australia are in the process of changing from their 200 watt limit to 250 watts, but I have no idea if that's across the whole country or just in some states.

Overall, most of the world that has ebike laws seems to have settled on around 200 to 250 watts and around 15 mph or so as the legal limit.

 

[SamTexas]

Its nuts for a mom on a cargobike with a kid and two bags of groceries to be expected top tackle a hill SAFELY with even 750W.

750W is more than sufficient for the above mom to tackle any reasonable hill. The problem is not power but how that power is used. In this case, the only explanation is improper gearing.

 

[Chalo]

Personally I don't see a need for any limit at all. As long as it has functional pedals on it, it's a bicycle.

By the same reasoning, as long as it has a functional motor on it, it's a motor vehicle.

Most places have moped categories. If your bike doesn't qualify as an e-bike but does qualify as a moped, then that's your category. If it's too fast to be a moped, then it's a motorcycle.

I don't want to share my streets with folks who are blasting around at 50mph with no insurance or license to defend. If you want the same privileges as a safe, ethical, socially responsible, energy efficient bicyclist, then ride like one. 20mph is enough.

Regular cyclists aren't zooming around faster than that unless they are pointed downhill or they're making a real hard effort at the pedals. Legal e-cyclists can also go faster than 20mph if they roll downhill or work hard at the pedals.

I think the arguments for having a much higher power limit, or none at all, are reasonable if the motor-only speed limit is preserved. But if the power cap is lifted, I think a vehicle weight limit is fair-- to keep morons from loading up Wally World bikes with 150 lbs. of car batteries and a starter motor, without doing anything to make their heap more roadworthy. Even at only 20mph on level ground, that's contrary to the public interest.

According to the law, legit Texas e-bikes have a motor-only 20mph speed limitation and a 100 pound weight limit, but no power limit. That means my own previous e-bike almost matched the CPSC e-bike definition, but was not a legal e-bike in Texas because its 3 x 22Ah SLAs and heavy X5 motor raised the weight to over 110 lbs. The Texas definition would make it difficult to construct a legally compliant long wheelbase electric cargo bike, even with lipo batteries and an RC type motor, just because the bike itself would use up most of the weight allowance. (But a cargo bike does make it very easy to be stealthy.)

I have noticed that Texas law would technically allow a "super pedelec" that self-limited to 20mph if the pedals were idle, but became derestricted when the pedals went to work:

Sec. 541.201. (24) "Electric bicycle" means a bicycle that:
(A) is designed to be propelled by an electric motor, exclusively or in combination with the application of human power;
(B) cannot attain a speed of more than 20 miles per hour without the application of human power; and
(C) does not exceed a weight of 100 pounds.

That seems like a fun project for an enterprising person.

Chalo

 

[adrian_sm]

I would vote for ~40kph (~24mph), 750w ebike laws. Here is why:

After commuting via ebike for ~20,000 kms now I find about 40kph to be the upper limit of what I would be happy to endorse as a speed limit. Now, I rode a lot of those 20,000kms on a 50+kph capable bike mind you. Above ~40kph I find cars underestimate my speed, resulting in potentially dangerous situations. I also find that the bikes components start getting pushed too hard. Brakes become much more important, suspension is becoming more of a necessity than a luxury, and generally you feel the need to start upgrading lots of stuff on your bike to make it safe again. So on the roads ~40kph limit. Now I rode faster than this and accepted that risk, but this was after a lot of experience and road time. 40kph was a lot safer, less stressful, and I would not be as worried about less-experienced riders achieving these speeds.

Bicycles in general are a fairly privileged vehicle, able to go on the road with cars and on shared bike/pedestrian paths. Which raises the issue of ebikes on shared paths. I think they deserve a lower speed limit of some sort, but not only for ebikes, for all bikes. Not sure of the best way to do it, whether it is a blanket speed limit, or a speed limit when in proximity to other users of the path. But the risk on a shared path with walkers, joggers, kids, dogs is much different than on a road. This time the cyclists is the one more likely to inflict harm on others, than being on the receiving end of the pain. Hence my suggestion of having a separate limit. Maybe just a blanket speed limit of 25kph unless otherwise signed. Allowing for higher or lower speed limits to be imposed as needed.

As for power limits, I totally agree a higher power limit than Australias 200w makes sense. It allows bigger hills to be concurred, more cargo to be hauled, less fit people to get out on a bike. It just generally increases the appeal of ebikes, enabling more people to choose a bike as transport over a car, which will only have a positive impact on the overall transport needs of a city. But it is very difficult to define, measure and enforce. So I think the inclusion of a power limit is more about making sure the ebikes are safe, to make sure a frail or careless noob doesn't accidentally get themselves and others into trouble by unexpected results of sudden surges of power. So from a safety point would still be happy to have some sort of power limit, say 500-750w output.

40kph, 750w ebikes would be a much more attractive proposition, decreasing travel times, increasing the load carrying capacity, and making a bike a real viable means of transport for the masses. All while keeping speeds in the range expected of bikes, thus not greatly increasing the risk of drivers misjudging it and putting riders at risk.

- Adrian

 

[dogman dan]

To me, a reasonable limit for bicycle class would be 25 mph, and 1000w.

A reasonable hill can be climbed on 750w. I can agree with that, and luckily even my very long hill is still only 5% at the steep part so it qualifies as reasonable. But regular bicycles can easily travel on flat ground at speeds a great deal faster than 20 mph.

So it just rubs me wrong that a bike can go 25-30 mph, and is allowed on the bike trail. But an e-bike has to go slower to be a "bike".

Then you get into practical consideratons. For example, a great number of ebike motor kits go faster than 20 mph on 36v. And if you have an unreasonable hill, you likely want 48v to up the wattage.

There is still this disconnect between what is easily avaliable and works well, and the actual law in USA states that use the 750w 20 mph rule.

Since the real reason a lot of people want an electric bike is help with hills, I think a slight watt increase is in order. If the watt limit was 1000, then a 48v 20 amp controller would be more or less legal. And that will get you up about 10% grades. Then by dropping the motor winding one notch, you'd still have speeds under 25 mph but ability to get up hills.

Bike paths, multi use paths, etc should have speed limits for ALL bicycles. 15-20 mph max. If it's built for commuters to travel on 25 mph but walkers should have a seperate walkway where bikes are banned.

Since you don't really want the DUI crowd going much faster than bikes or having much power, I like the idea of a moped class as well. But not the idea of a moped needing a vin number and a licence plate. Just the driver needs a valid licence. Let the moped have a 30mph limit, but the power limit should be about 3-5 hp.

 

[Miles]

35 Kph (22 mph).
1500 Watts continuous rating.
35 Kg (unladen weight).

 

[Jeremy Harris]

You can get pretty good hill climbing ability on 250 watts, if you accept a low speed. Many of the low powered, EU legal, bikes sold here can climb pretty much any hill, if only at the same sort of speed a cyclist might struggle to ride at. I agree that the low power limit of 200 to 250 watts that most of the world seems to have adopted is too low, but believe that anything over about 750 watts and 25 mph shouldn't really be called a bicycle and allowed to use cycle paths etc.

One potential problem here is that there are a lot of shared bike/pedestrian paths, where riding at anything over about 10 to 15 mph would be foolhardy. The ones I use through the local city are busy with walkers, children in push chairs, people riding disabled buggies, so virtually of the time that I'm using these paths I'm going less than 10 mph. Cycle routes across much of Europe are similar, particularly in countries, like the Netherlands, where cycling is very popular. 25 mph is fine on the streets, and safe enough, as that's the sort of speed the lycras tend to ride around at anyway.

I share the view that Chalo put forward about mopeds. If ebikes are to have moped levels of performance (or greater) and weight then I'd want to see them at least carry mandatory third party insurance, maybe even licensing and registration plates. Certainly here it's no real problem (other than dealing with some painful bureaucracy) to get a moped registered. If it's electric, then there's no road tax. Most car drivers here can probably ride it on their car licence (except for youngsters) and insurance for them is pretty cheap.

One worry I have is that if people start really taking the mickey with the ebike laws, and if bikes that are obviously and blatantly illegal start to hit the streets, then it won't be long before the government/police clamp down. At the moment, I can ride around town on my 1 kW plus bike and not attract attention as long as I don't do anything stupid. The bike looks stealthy and legal and no one gives it a second glance. If I were to ride around on something with a big battery pack duct taped to the frame, a motor the size of a frying pan and a gash collection of large gauge wires strapped to it then I reckon it wouldn't be too long before it got noticed.

 

[Chalo]

35 Kph (22 mph).
1500 Watts continuous rating.
35 Kg (unladen weight).

Unladen by batteries too? You know there are Dutch granny bikes that weigh over 25kg without luggage or motors, right? Put an X5 or HS series motor on one of those and you'll hit your weight limit without even having a battery or controller on it.

Chalo

 

[dogman dan]

No weight limt. Frames need to be as strong as needed, and there is no such thing as a weight limit for regular bikes.

I just have this problem with restrictions for "ebikes" that don't apply to regular bikes. Like a speed limit slower than what a typical fit cyclist can maintain on a light racing style bike. Watts aren't limited either for regular bikes, but I do admit that 750w can't be maintained for long by many people.

Speed limits for ALL bikes are very appropirate for those locations that need it, such as multi use paths.

250w will get you up a hill with a nice assist. From what little I saw of England in 1976, 250w would be ok. You'd be at the top of the hill before a semi stalling motor melted. Just don't try that in the rocky mountains. and in the east, grades are typically even steeper. In general, we need motors that can maintain 15 mph up a 7% grade or we'll just melt stuff. That requires about 1000w for most hubmotors.

It would help if the market made selling slower winding motors more appealing. Unfortunately, highest speed at a given voltage is what sells best here. But even if 2808 was the standard winding speed, we'd still want 1000w for the long western USA hills.

 

[amberwolf]

35 Kph (22 mph).
1500 Watts continuous rating.
35 Kg (unladen weight).

Unladen by batteries too? You know there are Dutch granny bikes that weigh over 25kg without luggage or motors, right? Put an X5 or HS series motor on one of those and you'll hit your weight limit without even having a battery or controller on it.

Chalo

IIRC, Even my CrazyBike2 weighs more than that *by itself*, without the cargo pods on it, and no motor, batteries, wiring, or anthing else. Just a bicycle.

 

[Ypedal]

I say there are speed limit signs everywhere i ride, that, should be the speed limit for anything going thru that zone.

the " Max 50 kph " sign down main st, is really a minimum, go any slower and you die.

why have a double standard.. cars being sold daily in this province are not limited to 110 kph, yet that is the max speed any vehicle i allowed to go. guberment says jack shit about that.. why ? so there is wiggle room on the accelerator when you need to pass a 90 kph driver in a 110 zone.

 

[Miles]

I just have this problem with restrictions for "ebikes" that don't apply to regular bikes. Like a speed limit slower than what a typical fit cyclist can maintain on a light racing style bike.

I've never found this a particularly convincing argument. If there is no limit for regular bicycles then, following your premise, there should be no limit at all for ebikes. Or, do you want a limit for bikes at what "a typical fit cyclist can maintain on a light racing style bike"?

 

[Ykick]

I'm pretty much in Dogman's corner. 750W is close enough to 1HP (man on horse) while being reasonable enough that authorities can crack down on obscene exhibitions of power. I'm just afraid if you begin with 1500W limit, 5kW will become the norm. Which isn't an entirely bad thing but should probably not be ridden by speed freaks on multi use paths.

I believe if you're sharing roads with cars/trucks it should be seeing eye, safe and sane limit. Restricted paths should be allowed by whatever reasonable speed limit is needed to accommodate the average volume of pedestrian/bike traffic using the path. Around San Diego, crowded beach paths are usually 8MPH. For my Manhattan bridge crossings I usually adhere to between 15-20MPH.

 

[Miles]

You know there are Dutch granny bikes that weigh over 25kg without luggage or motors, right?

Well, I guess you wouldn't start with one of those, then......

 

[Miles]

the " Max 50 kph " sign down main st, is really a minimum, go any slower and you die.

I would also restrict car speeds in built-up areas to 35 kph....

 

[Jeremy Harris]

the " Max 50 kph " sign down main st, is really a minimum, go any slower and you die.

I would also restrict car speeds in built-up areas to 35 kph....

We're close to that in some areas around here, with 20 mph limits becoming more commonplace in built-up areas. I live on a road with a 30 mph limit on it, though, and we regularly clock motorists doing over 60 mph. A few of us borrowed a had-held speed gun and did some checks a couple of years ago, as the police said they didn't have the resources to look into the speeding complaints and the accident record on the road didn't justify them putting a speed trap up...........

 

[Miles]

We're close to that in some areas around here, with 20 mph limits becoming more commonplace in built-up areas. I live on a road with a 30 mph limit on it, though, and we regularly clock motorists doing over 60 mph. A few of us borrowed a had-held speed gun and did some checks a couple of years ago, as the police said they didn't have the resources to look into the speeding complaints and the accident record on the road didn't justify them putting a speed trap up...........

There's a 20mph limit where I live - even with speed humps it's still not self-enforcing, though.... If there was a blanket 35 kph or 20mph limit in all built up areas, drivers would adjust to it. If there was the same speed limit for all vehicles, it would be safer.

 

[SamTexas]

But regular bicycles can easily travel on flat ground at speeds a great deal faster than 20 mph.

This is one argument that I hear over and over and I don't agree with it at all. Yes, almost anyone can pedal at 20mph on flat ground. But for how long? 5 mins is optimistic for normal people. Normal people output is 100 - 120W continuous, that translates to 16mph max on a road bike, or 14mph on a mountain bike. Of course there are lycra clad cyclists who can maintain 20mph continuous for a few hours, but they are certainly not the norm. How many people can maintain 20mph average for two continuous hours? 1% or 0.1% of the population? But put anyone on a 750W ebike (properly geared) and they can do 25mph average until they run out of battery.

A 500W ebike (properly geared) will transform a normal person into a super cyclist. Can Lance Armstrong output 500W continuously? How about 750W?

 

[Chalo]

I say there are speed limit signs everywhere i ride, that, should be the speed limit for anything going thru that zone.

the " Max 50 kph " sign down main st, is really a minimum, go any slower and you die.

why have a double standard.. cars being sold daily in this province are not limited to 110 kph, yet that is the max speed any vehicle i allowed to go. guberment says jack shit about that.. why ? so there is wiggle room on the accelerator when you need to pass a 90 kph driver in a 110 zone.

You can have an electric motorcycle like that almost anywhere. It's just not a bicycle from a legal standpoint. Neither is a car.

Chalo

 

[Chalo]

I just have this problem with restrictions for "ebikes" that don't apply to regular bikes. Like a speed limit slower than what a typical fit cyclist can maintain on a light racing style bike.

There is no statutory limit on how fast you can pedal an e-bike, either; there is only a statutory limit on how fast the motor can propel it if you want to avoid registering it as a motor vehicle. You wanna go faster than that? Use your feet!

You wanna go faster than 20mph but don't wanna use your feet? Register it as a moped or a motorcycle. This is neither a hard problem nor any kind of double standard.

It wouldn't be fair to pedal cyclists or registered/licensed motorcyclists if people with electric MCs got bicycle privileges just because their motos are electric. E-bikes already got a free pass, special treatment, and all they have to do is follow the rules. You're the one who wants to have it both ways.