jonescg's NEW electric racebike BUILD thread!

Is that the new "down under" math, Chris? 32 * 2 = 55, lol! :wink:

BTW, what are you using for a DC/DC converter? I haven't found much available that works with HV packs.
 
Frank said:
Is that the new "down under" math, Chris? 32 * 2 = 55, lol! :wink:

BTW, what are you using for a DC/DC converter? I haven't found much available that works with HV packs.

Haha - typo. I must have tried to put 22 km there and got 32 km. Either way, the 55 km bit is correct :)
I don't have a DC/DC converter on Voltron - I have to charge the 12 V between races. Most 700 to 12 V DC/DC converters seem to be rated for 3 kW or so - I really only need about 300 W. I think I found a Murata product, but even that was pretty big.
 
That's still quite an impressive distance for the aux. battery, I thought that might be what you were doing. Vicor had a solution but it involved two step-downs, I'm not building a pack yet so maybe someone will have a simpler product when the time comes. Interestingly, my 300V (nominal) Vicor device has a working range of 200-400 volts but when I put in a 200V pack it still works down to 165 V.
 
Sevcon do a 1.5 kW DC/DC converter which takes up to 800 V DC and steps it down to 12 V. But that's about 4-5 times more powerful than it needs to be.
View attachment hv-dcdc-august-2016.pdf
 
Nice looking DC-DC. A little hard to get programmed (DVT doesn't fully have support yet).

I did get ours updated to a different CAN Node and Baud rate. Using some of these in a project at work (Rinehart/AMRacing).
 
Thanks for the link, it does look pretty robust (I used a 72V Sevcon unit on another project and it worked great). My biggest issue with this one is size. I have the Vicor mounted on a chunk of aluminum chassis which keeps temps down but I could always mount this one on the fairing I suppose; it would be oversized for me as well but that probably means cooling won't be an issue. If I go to a HV pack it won't be until 2020 anyway so time to plan.
 
Frank I was looking at Vicor products and there are some eminently capable units - however anything over 410 V DC input only seems to output 48 V or more. I assume it's possible to parallel the outputs of two modules - one on each half of the traction pack?

Also, I presume these guys aren't current limiting, so it would be prudent to have some kind of auxiliary battery as a tank for surge loads.
 
They had suggested a 2-step approach (800->48 or whatever then 48->12) but I wonder if two units paralleled on the output would work? I get nervous every time I think about splitting a pack for anything though and if it requires two units no matter what I would prefer not splitting the pack I guess.

On a side note, I always run an aux battery and found it worthwhile to monitor aux battery voltage. It's saved me from getting stuck a couple of times on the road for various reasons.
 
Well the 800 V to 48 V unit costs $800 or so. And then the 48 to 12 is only about $80. The first stage is capable of 1.3 kW, but the second stage is only good for 320 W... I guess you can parallel several of them if you needed more power, but 30 amps at 12 V is heaps for a bike.
 
jonescg said:
Well the 800 V to 48 V unit costs $800 or so. And then the 48 to 12 is only about $80. The first stage is capable of 1.3 kW, but the second stage is only good for 320 W... I guess you can parallel several of them if you needed more power, but 30 amps at 12 V is heaps for a bike.

Yikes! Doesn't matter if it's $Oz or $US that still changes the equation methinks. My LSR bike is street legal and uses a scavenge pump from a turbo setup to circulate cooling oil through the motor, that along with lights uses a fair chunk but 30A is still tons of juice. Thanks for the discussion.
 
Well it's been almost a year since I last touched the bike. The ride to Mundaring was the last ride it did on this battery before being parked up and having nowhere to go.

The battery had a short, hard life, so I was not expecting it to be in good shape. Considering I built this one in 2015 (go back a page or three to see the build) and we raced it for a couple of seasons, it's done OK.

But I plugged it on to charge it and it wasn't having a bar of it. I figured one of the modules wasn't in good shape, so it was time to hoist the pack out and measure some cell voltages.

Most cells were around 2.8 V (as good as empty) but quite a few were closer to 2 V or less. It's been neglected for some time, and I'm pretty sure the BMS takes a bit from the cells too. Meanwhile, another group of cells was still sitting at 4 V! Dread to think what this group got to after charging all the way up to 700 V :shock: The BMS never balanced, only monitored. And it had been telling me for some time this group was not much chop. So regardless, this was a badly out of shape pack. Ah well, off to the recycling gods you go :D

However, the reason it was not charging became apparent shortly after starting to disassemble the pack.
Feb 2020 pack.jpg

This pack was built as the last battery I ever soldered busbars to. And here is why solder is generally a bad idea. The main terminal on this module (and one around the other side) was disconnected from the pad. As the cells swelled and distorted a bit, it left constant tension on the soldered joint. In the end, it just failed and popped off. Nowadays I use screws and they have never had this problem. Good move.

I figured the pack was swollen a bit (it's perfectly normal for pouches to swell) so I started to pull the pack apart. Several screws were quite tough and the heads chewed out, so I Dremmeled a slot in them so I could undo them. As soon as I relieved the tension, the top shelf lifted upwards about 10 or 12 mm due to pressure from the cells below.
Feb 2020 pack1.jpg

I remember someone asking about 5 or 7 years ago whether or not there was enough compression on the cells inside the polycarbonate enclosure. The answer was yes. The polycarbonate enclosure did a very good job of keeping the cells under compression.

So it's time to design and build a new pack!

I'm thinking of using the 7000 mAh cells I used in the Prelude, and maybe making it a 168s3p pack so I have 21 Ah. It won't be a very powerful battery, but with 13 kWh, it will certainly have more range. These particular cells might be good for 4 or 5 C discharge, but still, that's barely 100 amps at 650 V. I feel like a bike needs at least 15 C capable cells. I think there were some 175 Wh/kg cells in that realm. Or I can go back to the usual LiPo cells I normally use and build another 6 or 7 kWh pack. It will have plenty of power that way.

I might use aluminium instead of polycarb for the enclosure. Provided I can insulate it appropriately it should be OK. While I'm there I might as well re-do much of the wiring loom. You can always do a better job :)
 
Thanks for posting this. Great craftsmanship!
I take it that the pouches that were still holding a charge of around 4V can be reused in a lower power application battery pack?
 
SlowCo said:
Thanks for posting this. Great craftsmanship!
I take it that the pouches that were still holding a charge of around 4V can be reused in a lower power application battery pack?

Anyone who wants them can have them - 175 V at top of charge (42s2p, 5000 mAh cells).

Would make for a baller e-bike :)
 
This bike deserves a new battery and to be raced, but there are a few things I'd like to see in another build. Like, now that the motor and inverter options are maturing, I don't need 700 V anymore - I could probably achieve what I need with 450 V or so.
Ideally the bike would have a longer trail and a lower seat height, as it's not the nicest thing to pull up hard under brakes. So it's definitely time for a new iteration of Voltron.

However I've since bought a house, put solar panels up and will be buying a Hyundai Ioniq BEV as our first and last new car ever. So money is tight.
 
Frank said:
What would you use for an inverter?

I know Arlin and others are working on a more compact inverter, but I really can't go past the Rinehart / Cascadia Motion inverter. Solid, reliable, powerful.
 
Hi Chris,

Did you ever monitor battery temps when racing? I'm working on a project (less power but longer race time) and I feel this will be an important issue.

regards,
Frank
 
Hi Frank, sorry for the late reply.
The EV Power BMS I was using in the bike was pretty basic, so it only let me know if the cells got to 50°C and at that point we'd simply come into the pits and point a fan at it. But that only happened once at the end of a hot day at Queensland Raceway and five full practice sessions. On what is one of the country's biggest power tracks.
Passive cooling would help enormously.
 
Well, it's been quite awhile, but if you see this Chris, could you update us on recent goings-on? I know the last year and a half haven't been great for motorsports but things will come around eventually.

Hope you've been well!
 
By gum it has been a while!

I have decided to update this thread with a bit of news - I've decided to start the Honda CRX conversion and it will be running a Nissan Leaf motor and transaxle. Not sure what the inverter will be, but I'm keen to try one of Arlo1 's Power Designs inverters. Failing that, a Cascadia / Rinehart inverter can be tuned to spin it no doubt.

The battery for the car will probably use the 21700 format Molicells like the e-bike battery pack I built. It's waterproof, they're robust, and can be potted to ensure a good, long lifespan. So what does that mean for Voltron?

Well if I order an extra 900 cells or so, I can build a 12.5 kWh battery which weighs only slightly more than the original 6 kWh battery. I'm not sure if I'll fully pot the modules like I did for the e-bike battery, as that does add a lot of weight to the pack. Perhaps just the end plates with thermally conductive resin then? The e-bike pack ended up storing 840 Wh and weighed in at 5.25 kg, so a total pack-level energy density of 160 Wh/kg. Without potting it might have got closer to 185 Wh/kg.

On Voltron that means a 5p168s battery, built as four blocks of 5p42s. This gives me about 12.5 kWh and a rough mass of 67 kg The original 6 kWh battery was 58 kg, but for twice the range and similar power (20 C versus 27 C peak) that's not bad. It will make the financial case for lighter wheels even stronger though.

The blocks would fit right where the original battery went, plus some packaging to make them secure and waterproof. Despite the opportunity to make them a funny shape and push them lower into the cradle, it's all too hard, and I'm already looking at about $6000 worth of cells.
 
jonescg said:
I've decided to start the Honda CRX conversion and it will be running a Nissan Leaf motor and transaxle. Not sure what the inverter will be

Sounds very interesting. Are you looking for a different inverter to increase the power?
 
For the car - yes. The stock Nissan controller was 80 kW. Even though that's well more than the clapped out ICE in there currently, I'm chasing something closer to 160 kW. Cause, you know. I can :)

The bike will be down on power, but up on range. I want it to be able to compete with gas bikes on a standard club race, that means a safe 8 laps flat out, as well as an out-lap and an-in lap. It might be well down on power by the end, who knows.
 
Basic layout of the capture plates. This would be the top, and the mirror image would be the bottom.
Voltron cylindrical pack.jpg
 
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