Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

[Bullfrog]

Seems like I have seen "blueprints" of some leaf hubmotors here on ES. For the rim, where did you get it? See if they can tell you the ERD and spoke hole offset, if any.

I have the ERD for the rim, just need the dimensions of the motor...in particular the diameter of the spoke circle hole pattern.

 

[Bullfrog]

for my rear motor with 170/177mm dropout fitment, cassette option, I measured:

flange diameter at spoke holes: 233mm
flange spacing: 50mm

Thanks, I'll compare the drawings available on the Leaf web site and see what I can use.

 

[Bullfrog]

On Bullfrog's 7 speed freewheel motor the flange spacing is 40mm per the dimensional diagram. This measured from the outside face to outside face of both spoke flanges. Assuming the spoke flange is 3mm thick that means the distance between the middle of both spoke flanges would be 37mm.

Speaking of distance between spoke flanges, he will also need to know the dishing offset.

Does Leaf dish/offset the rims they lace? I haven't checked mine yet.

Thanks for the dimensions.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Does Leaf dish/offset the rims they lace? I haven't checked mine yet.

Thanks for the dimensions.

Leaf told me both the 7 speed freewheel (135mm o.l.d.) and 7 speed cassette (137mm o.l.d.) 35mm wide stator hub motors require dishing. They didn't tell me how much though.

 

[E-HP]

Leaf told me both the 7 speed freewheel (135mm o.l.d.) and 7 speed cassette (137mm o.l.d.) 35mm wide stator hub motors require dishing. They didn't tell me how much though.

It must not be too much. I recall when I used the various spoke calculators, for my rim I ended up ordering the same spoke size for for both sides. The difference in the calculator was less than a millimeter and rounded up to make sure they erred on the side of being long rather than short.

 

[Bullfrog]

The outer flange diameter is 243mm per a few diagrams. You need to subtract the distance between the edge of the flange and center of the spoke hole (times 2). 232mm seems to ring a bell, but take a measurement with your calipers for the exact amount to subtract.

for my rear motor with 170/177mm dropout fitment, cassette option, I measured:

flange diameter at spoke holes: 233mm
flange spacing: 50mm

On Bullfrog's 7 speed freewheel motor the flange spacing is 40mm per the dimensional diagram. This measured from the outside face to outside face of both spoke flanges. Assuming the spoke flange is 3mm thick that means the distance between the middle of both spoke flanges would be 37mm.

Speaking of distance between spoke flanges, he will also need to know the dishing offset.

Thanks guys, I do appreciate it.

 

[scianiac]

Does anybody happen to know if there is a circlip under the brake side seal on the newer Leaf motors, my older motor didn't have one but this new core that side plate quite stuck and before I force it or ruin the seal trying to get the seal out it would be nice to know. Need to remove both covers to varnish the core.

Also I have a brand new motor core and one from 2022 side by side if anybody has and questions on the differences. The windings do look tighter and neater, weirdly the side covers are different castings but otherwise have the same shape and I could swear the freewheel boss sticks out more but haven't measured it yet.

 

[kuromaku]

Does anybody happen to know if there is a circlip under the brake side seal on the newer Leaf motors...

No special retention like that on my 2024 motor; just pressed it straight off. HTH

 

[scianiac]

No special retention like that on my 2024 motor; just pressed it straight off. HTH

Thanks, just pressed off with a little help from the bearing press, just didn't want to really go at with the press only to find out there was a clip or something.

 

[Bullfrog]

How do you guys add Statorade to your motor? I want to seal all of the interfaces using Permatex Ultra Gray RTV and in the future, I'd prefer NOT to have to take a side cover off to add Statorade.

Talked with Grin Tech and they recommended sealing my motor because the carrier fluid used in Statorade will make your brakes NOT work if it gets on the rotor/pads.

Options that come to mind:

A. Drill through the bottom of one of the disc brake rotor holes.

B. Drill a hole in the side cover, thread the hole, and install a pipe plug.

C. Drill a hole in a side cover and just seal it with a small dab of RTV.

D. Drill a small hole barely large enough to get the needle from a turkey baster/injector thru and just leave it unsealed. From experience, I know a motor breathes as it heats up and cools off so a very small opening may be the best way to go.

For the holes mentioned in B. and C. above, I would drill the hole on the Freewheel side, about half way between the outer edge of the largest gear and the outer edge of the housing.

Thanks for any ideas, suggestions, and experiences .

Now that I have my 4T Leaf motor laced in a 24" rim...once I get the Statorade installed, the Schwalbe Pick-Up 24x2.6" tire mounted, the 18 FET Infineon clone controller connected, and the 20s5p (72v) battery from EM3ev installed, I should be able to cruise at 45 mph without any worries of over heating.

 

[E-HP]

I did B on my old MXUS and took the side over off for the Leaf. Neither are sealed and neither leak. I don’t think there's enough fluid to make it to the side cover seam under any normal circumstances.

 

[The Toecutter]

My Leafbike 1500W 4T with over 20,000 miles on it, currently in my mountainbike, likes to stutter when I apply throttle to it at a stop. It jerks the left torquearm back and forth but refuses to make the bike go. If I lift the rear wheel and apply throttle, the motor spins. Laden, I have to pedal it to about 2 mph first before the throttle will let me take off, and it takes off with full power as expected. I recently replaced the bearings and Hall effect sensors. It does this even if I operate it in sensorless mode. It easily can be spun by hand without any abnormal amount of resistance, and otherwise runs the bike fine.

 

[Bullfrog]

I did B on my old MXUS and took the side over off for the Leaf. Neither are sealed and neither leak. I don’t think there's enough fluid to make it to the side cover seam under any normal circumstances.

Thanks...I drilled a .108" (drill bit OD) hole in the side cover on the freewheel side just outside of the largest gear. Almost identical in position to what you are showing. The syringe that you put the Statorade in with has a really small tip on it and it easily fits in the .108" hole...I'll just have to apply it very slowly.

My plan is to add Statorade thru the hole and then put a dab of RTV on the hole. If I ever need to add more Statorade, I'll just scratch off the RTV...I am just going to clean the surface real good and try NOT to get any RTV in the hole.

If my approach doesn't work for any reason, I'll pull the side cover off, drill a bigger hole, thread it, and install a pipe plug.

 

[Bullfrog]

My Leafbike 1500W 4T with over 20,000 miles on it, currently in my mountainbike, likes to stutter when I apply throttle to it at a stop. It jerks the left torquearm back and forth but refuses to make the bike go. If I lift the rear wheel and apply throttle, the motor spins. Laden, I have to pedal it to about 2 mph first before the throttle will let me take off, and it takes off with full power as expected. I recently replaced the bearings and Hall effect sensors. It does this even if I operate it in sensorless mode. It easily can be spun by hand without any abnormal amount of resistance, and otherwise runs the bike fine.

Don't know if there is any correlation but my Leaf 1500w motor will act like it trips a circuit breaker if I try to start off with anything more than the tiniest amount of throttle. If I pedal and get the bike moving very slowly, the problem disappears much like you said when you pedal "about 2 mph".

I was guessing it had something to do with the Hall sensor and/or the controller not supplying the perfect positioning for the current to get things moving. Now I am thinking it is predominately my controller...I am using the Leaf 40A controller that came in my kit.

Based my guess on the behavior of my MAC when I accidentally hooked up the Hall sensor wires incorrectly and all my MAC would do is shutter/shake when I applied the throttle.

I'll be watching for other responses to see if anyone comes up with a good solution and I have a different controller I plan to try when I go from 52v to 72v.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

My Leafbike 1500W 4T with over 20,000 miles on it, currently in my mountainbike, likes to stutter when I apply throttle to it at a stop. It jerks the left torquearm back and forth but refuses to make the bike go. If I lift the rear wheel and apply throttle, the motor spins. Laden, I have to pedal it to about 2 mph first before the throttle will let me take off, and it takes off with full power as expected. I recently replaced the bearings and Hall effect sensors. It does this even if I operate it in sensorless mode. It easily can be spun by hand without any abnormal amount of resistance, and otherwise runs the bike fine.

That is normal behaviour for sensorless operation on most controllers I've ever used. Sounds like the hall sensors aren't working. I suggesting getting one of those cheap 'ebike testers' with LEDs that will tell you if the hall sensors are working.

Cheers

 

[neptronix]

VESC controllers have very good sensorless operation ( very little stutter ) if your halls are knackered.

 

[The Toecutter]

I have a Phaserunner hooked up to it. It never stuttered until I put it into the mountainbike. On the trike, I was able to peel out with it.

 

[Bullfrog]

I have a Phaserunner hooked up to it. It never stuttered until I put it into the mountainbike. On the trike, I was able to peel out with it.

What diameter wheel was being driven when you had it in the trike and what diameter wheel is it in now?

I am wondering if the load on the motor has something to do with the stuttering because my MAC would not do it when I had my 3 speed switch set to 60A but at 40A it would stutter a little bit at low speeds and at 20A it would stutter even more than at 40A.

 

[The Toecutter]

What diameter wheel was being driven when you had it in the trike and what diameter wheel is it in now?

I am wondering if the load on the motor has something to do with the stuttering because my MAC would not do it when I had my 3 speed switch set to 60A but at 40A it would stutter a little bit at low speeds and at 20A it would stutter even more than at 40A.

This specific 4T motor has been the same 26" wheel in both the trike and mountainbike. The issue began after I replaced the hall effect sensors(which were burnt out) and the bearings. The Phaserunner detects all 3 halls.

I now have the trike upgraded to a 3T wind version that was built into a 20" wheel, and replaced with a 16x1.5" DOT rim. The trike never had the stuttering issue regardless of which motor or controller was used.

 

[Bullfrog]

This specific 4T motor has been the same 26" wheel in both the trike and mountainbike. The issue began after I replaced the hall effect sensors(which were burnt out) and the bearings. The Phaserunner detects all 3 halls.

I now have the trike upgraded to a 3T wind version that was built into a 20" wheel, and replaced with a 16x1.5" DOT rim. The trike never had the stuttering issue regardless of which motor or controller was used.

Same battery in the trike and the bike? That is my last guess .

 

[The Toecutter]

Same battery in the trike and the bike? That is my last guess .

I used to use the same battery type in the trike. The trike had two Greenway 46.8V 15.6AH packs in parallel, getting 150-200 miles range at 30-35 mph with a Leafbike 4T and Phaserunner. I ran that setup at up to 3 kW, starting at 1500W and incrementally increasing it over time. Both packs were each rated for 1,500W peak by manufacturer, so 3 kW peak combined.

The mountainbike uses one of those Greenway packs and gets a 25 or so mile range at 30 mph, limited to 750W, using the same motor/wheel/controller that was in the trike. That pack performs strong and has been delivering 14+ AH without issue with some still left in it by the time I put it back on the charger.

The mountainbike was made of the leftover parts after upgrading the trike to 10 kW via 3T Leafbike motor, ASI BAC4000, and 1.7 kWh of Molicel P42A.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

The mountainbike was made of the leftover parts after upgrading the trike to 10 kW via 3T Leafbike motor, ASI BAC4000, and 1.7 kWh of Molicel P42A.

How do you find the Leaf motor at 10KW? I'm curious cause I ran mine at 8KW with many multiple cooling solutions including active fan cooling and while it 'worked' I did have to keep a close eye on temps.
I'm more curious about what cooling mods you've done on it!

Cheers

 

[neptronix]

Congrats on finding something close to the saturation point, i'd love to see that in action!

 

[The Toecutter]

How do you find the Leaf motor at 10KW? I'm curious cause I ran mine at 8KW with many multiple cooling solutions including active fan cooling and while it 'worked' I did have to keep a close eye on temps.
I'm more curious about what cooling mods you've done on it!

Cheers

Shit-your-pants frightening at launch! I was able to race cars at stoplights, and win... I have a hubsink and ferrofluid, with temperature sensing via 10k NTC. It never got over 85 degrees C. Without the body on it, 4 kW could keep it at 45 mph, but I'd slow down to about 30 mph or so. With the body on it, by the time I was up to 45 mph or so, I only needed ~600-700W plus hard pedaling to hold speed, so it got plenty of time to cool even maintaining speed. The trike would already be at 45 mph in under 6 seconds from a stop in either case.

My biggest issue was melting connectors with 250A launches. I've installed 8AWG to the stock phase wires coming about an inch out of the motor axle and XT150s, and dialed that maximum phase current down to 200A.

I tried running it at 72V 20S6P Molicel P42A without the body as well, but never abused it. Without the body, it's a lot scarier to ride, because the wind feels like it wants to push me off the trike at 45 mph or so under hard acceleration and I worry about things falling out of my pockets. I did not top it out like this, but it would possibly do over 65 mph on flat ground, no body.

The trike is currently apart because I want to upgrade to 3-wheel-drive and need to do some work on the spindles and make mounting arms for the Grin All-axle 3T motors up front. I'm going to run field weakening on the Leafbike 3T to make it match the slightly higher kV of the front motors. Even losing a small amount of rear wheel torque, acceleration is going to be brutal!

Getting it going again will probably be for the weeks I take off work around Thanksgiving and Christmas. I plan to get the Milan SL converted this 4th of July weekend, starting at 750W and working my way up to 2 kW or so with another Grin All-Axle 5T motor. This way, I'll have two functional ebikes available while I work on the trike.

I'm thinking I might be able to run the Leafbike at up to 12kW peak / 200A max phase / 72V with front motors also providing acceleration, because it will be under 150A phase current in ~2.5 seconds at full acceleration, if each front motor has 4kW / 96A peak.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Nice! I ran mine at 250A phase, but I reran the whole phase wires. I drilled out the axle to make it slightly bigger, swapped the hall sensor wires to 36awg teflon wires, and also ran 20awg wires for 12 cooling fans, and that let me push 10awg fine stranded silicone wire with the silicone removed and replaced with heat-shrink through the axle and then I spliced that to 8awg silicone wire just outside the axle.
All that let me push 6-8KW for 10-20 seconds as I climbed steep hills and mountains on loose/rocky terrain. Typically I would run 4-5KW continuously and be able to climb 500-700m mountains in about 2-5min. By the time I got to the top I was touching 110-130C, but it didn't matter....I was at the top and my cooling fans would then rapidly cool things down again.
I miss that bike/motor...but I have something even better in the LMX64, and may have something else in the works

Cheers