LightningRods mid drive kit

[LightningRods]

I've been wondering if it would be an idea to send my motor to Grin on it's way to me to see if they can set up a amber phasrunner for it, can you believe how cool that would look on the Luna, I'm also interested in the torque sensing options,

I'll write Justin today and run all of this by him. Based on my dealings with him in the past I'm sure he'll be pumped and ready to go.

The torque sensing for the Luna is going to be really cool. It's based on the chain tension of the pedal power only chain running from the BB chainwheel to the lower jackshaft. It's a really clean, pure signal with no motor interference. The torque sensor that we're working with uses a hall sensor instead of a strain gauge. Strain gauges have some issues with temperature variations and reading the thermal contraction and growth of the metal they're attached to.

 

[LightningRods]

That's great news! Cash in hand ready to order as soon as you say the word! Actually, i really don't care about the anodizing so i'd be willing to purchase the bracket kit without. Will this show up on your website once it's ready for ordering?

I need to figure out what is casually referred to as a "business plan" around my shop. My original plan was to sell a complete upgraded mid drive, much the way that eGo, AFT and Ecospeed did with the old Cyclone motor.

I will be upgrading my web site in the very near future to include online sales. Everything available will be shown.

 

[Marin]

I've been wondering if it would be an idea to send my motor to Grin on it's way to me to see if they can set up a amber phasrunner for it, can you believe how cool that would look on the Luna, I'm also interested in the torque sensing options,

I'll write Justin today and run all of this by him. Based on my dealings with him in the past I'm sure he'll be pumped and ready to go.

The torque sensing for the Luna is going to be really cool. It's based on the chain tension of the pedal power only chain running from the BB chainwheel to the lower jackshaft. It's a really clean, pure signal with no motor interference. The torque sensor that we're working with uses a hall sensor instead of a strain gauge. Strain gauges have some issues with temperature variations and reading the thermal contraction and growth of the metal they're attached to.

Mike if you need anything from me P.M. or you have my email, I could get my frame over to Grin also if it helps, otherwise I'll stay tuned here,

cheers, Todd

 

[LightningRods]

I could get my frame over to Grin also if it helps, otherwise I'll stay tuned here,

I see that you're a BC local so I'll keep that option in the mix. Thanks!

 

[Marin]

I could get my frame over to Grin also if it helps, otherwise I'll stay tuned here,

I see that you're a BC local so I'll keep that option in the mix. Thanks!

Happy to help, also my local Grin dealer is pretty excited to see your drive, he helps me out when it's beyond my skill,

Another thought I've been having is that the big block may be overpowered for my intended use but it is a big bike and power can be restricted in various ways, or does it make any sense to put a small block in the mount, the phaserunner might match better to the small block also. I'm happy to start with the big block and downsize if possible later. These are just thoughts I can't be sure that they make sense, lol.

 

[Nathan]

At 10 lbs with the reduction gearbox and alloy mounting brackets the new larger Cyclone motor is not all that heavy. The lower kv will help reduce the 'dentist drill' whine that the small Cyclone was notorious for. Also like most small motors making big power, including the Astro motors, the small Cyclone has a tendency to get hot.

1kg more for the new cyclone then the original 1680w cyclone motor which weighs 2.2kg is quite porky like 45% heavier ! and on an ebike where you want to peddle 1kg is a lot of extra weight, the original Cyclone/AFT was in the same weight class as astro motors i.e less then 2.2kg and the new one is not in the same ball park on weight .

Also the Tangent kit which seems to be popular now is 167 kv and a lot louder steel gearbox then evn the cyclone and that hasn't stopped its popularity .. most people actually enjoy the noise it makes on that thread as it gives it a sporty feel and people move out of your way! which is a good idea if you are going fast.. going fast and being silent is very dangerous to pedestrians...

 

[Mammalian04]

Give me silence or give me 4 stroke!

In seriousness though, when trail riding I would rather hear the sounds that surround me (rather than those I create) and find other ways to notify pedestrians when the time calls for it. We shouldn't really be flying around blind corners where there could be pedestrians so relying on the motor whine is probably not a great plan. Of course, some folks primarily ride the streets so that's a different story for them I suppose.

I agree with weight concerns on a 500w bike where maybe those 2 pounds makes a difference but losing 2lbs or the other 30lbs that I carry around my waist every day might be an easier plan. :lol: For a 2000-3000 watt bike, worrying about 2 extra pounds of "SPRUNG" weight seems a bit silly for the mainstream. I'd gladly take that on and more for running cooler, quieter, and more reliable. Give me a beefy motor and beefy LightningRods mounts/drivetrain.

 

[John Bozi]

Sound is a recurring theme with ebikes and especially with mid drives.

A thing worth mentioning if it is related to my recent videos is that I am running higher voltage than what I presume the kit is advertised as made to run. The lower the voltage = RPM the lower the pitch (and would suit pedal cadence better too) so one way to avoid the scream might be to up the amps and keep the voltage as per the spec and play with your sprocket sizes....

The fun of the motor is that it is versatile and everyone can play with the chainrings, the volts, amps to their own liking. For me personally I like the high volts to get me to high speeds which quickly drop with the lower amps because it often matches the terrain. Flat areas of off-road riding have less erosion so can be zipped through holding WOT and with out having to do anything with throttle when you hit the steeper sections they are often littered with rock and erosion holes and the bike slows down to help you maneuver. I know my mountain areas well and with the CA can adjust this now almost to perfection. If I know rough stuff is coming so change on the ca to low amps because they are good to let the bike slow down. If I know steep stuff is coming which is relatively well maintained I can click a few buttons and hammer steep firetrails faster than your grand 1680w could ever do. I am talking sky is the limit when you get the drive-train dialed. I do love the cute cyclone for a safe alternative for those worried about having to fix stuff but for me, going faster uphill is more fun and I have found that if you have to get your kicks out of speed and pushing the envelope doing it on the edge uphill is safer than doing it downhill.

I run 1680 to save power and to do a bit of exercise (I often set ca to 20 amp), but then after the magic push of a few buttons, I can double the AFT or EGO kits performance (for now), and probably do 4 times more if I were at the liberty to customize my kit. A 1680 w kit has nowhere to go I am sorry to say. It will always be that. The big block still hasn't even stretched its legs.

Mike has opened this possibility up to us. And I am grateful to have a guy who keeps tinkering away and always standing behind his kit while it evolves.

As for sound and feel of the descent. Don't forget the beauty of not using absolutely any power, while the kit is perfectly sprung low. Because there is no drag and it is sprung I have started exercising more and started exploring downhill single track a hell of a lot more than when I ran a hub motor.

Listen to the motor here:

[youtube]du-uDkp3zzg[/youtube]

 

[LightningRods]

Thanks for the kind words John.

I have a lot of upgrades planned for this coming year. I've already started ordering many of the parts. Since we already have as much power as we can handle my focus will be on highest possible strength with lowest possible weight, reliability of components, reduced final drive issues, silent operation, and more options like torque sensing throttles.

I'm now producing mid drives specifically for the Luna Cycle, the Qulbix Raptor 140 and Q76R, the Sonders Storm, Surly Big Dummy cargo bike, XtraCycle cargo bike, and now the Utah Trikes fat tire recumbent.

It's been a great 2015 for us. I'm looking forward to an even better and more exciting 2016! Happy New Year and thanks for all of the support this last year.

Mike

 

[LightningRods]

We're on final approach for the first production run of mid bike drives for the Luna Cycle. All of the parts are pouring in.

On the right is the original aluminum hub with ACS freewheel and 12mm axle. On the left is the new stainless steel hub with deep keyway, White Industries HD freewheel and 15mm hardened 4140 chrome moly axle. Both have my laser cut 40T #219 secondary sprocket. These are some pretty trick parts and totally necessary to stand up to the brutal power of the big block motor. More photos soon as I put the first four drives together.

 

[Mammalian04]

Stoked!

 

[spinningmagnets]

I'm not hating on the new Cyclone, but I want to point out a couple things. You can always make a bike louder with on-board music if you fear other riders and hikers on your trails won't hear you coming, but...you can't make it quieter. Primary belt is always going to be quieter than the primary gears. The LR videos so far have been with an exposed belted primary and secondary chain, mostly because the enthusiasts who have bought the LR kits love the machineporn look of the drive. If a properly designed drive cover (possibly available as an option in 2016?) the belted drive would be even quieter than it is now.

The Cyclone will find its demographic (GNG is still selling kits, and we all know about what their kit is like), but...the gear ratio of the Cyclone geared reduction is fixed, and all of the LR kits can be easily and cheaply changed to a significantly higher or lower ratio with a single small Kart drive sprocket change. When the Cyclone gears wear out, gotta buy them only from Cyclone...if Mike retires to Costa Rica next week?...the belts, chains, sprockets, pulleys and jackshaft bearings the LR kits uses are all off-the-shelf (except for the custom sprocket just introduced, and that was only because nobody else would make that tooth-count). Etc, etc, etc...

 

[LightningRods]

I just want to mention, Spinningmagnets, that I'm having to abandon the 12mm standard that we talked about setting up 2 or 3 years ago. It just isn't strong enough for the power levels that my motors are capable of. Part by part I'm switching over to a 15mm standard. Eventually all of my reduction axles and sprocket/pulley bores will be 15mm. 12mm is probably adequate up to 1500 watts if you use good metal in the axle, but above that I think even the best steel is going to have problems at 12mm diameter.

 

[Joe T.]

I need a replacement 18T belt drive pulley for my bike. I bought it from you last year for my GNG motor. It's been good all year but it started skipping this November. The teeth are getting thin. I emailed you directly on the 24th.

I just want to mention, Spinningmagnets, that I'm having to abandon the 12mm standard that we talked about setting up 2 or 3 years ago. It just isn't strong enough for the power levels that my motors are capable of. Part by part I'm switching over to a 15mm standard. Eventually all of my reduction axles and sprocket/pulley bores will be 15mm. 12mm is probably adequate up to 1500 watts if you use good metal in the axle, but above that I think even the best steel is going to have problems at 12mm diameter.

 

[Marin]

looking really good Mike

 

[Nelsjourney]

To Mammalian04. Here are the videos I mentioned. Have Mike assess the motor and let me know as we discussed.

https://youtu.be/g02_NslprYo
[youtube]g02_NslprYo[/youtube]

https://youtu.be/NjFJBZlAuMQ
[youtube]NjFJBZlAuMQ[/youtube]

[moderator edit to fix links]
.

 

[Mammalian04]

Thanks for the video. However, evaluating on video is a bit tough. I sent you a follow up PM that I think you will find fair.

 

[Föppel]

Hey folks, i just came back from a ride with some friends.
Its so much fun to ride that powerfull middrife in fall, with all the leafs... spinning all the time when hitting the throttle




Nice work on that axle Mike!
i like the step from 12mm to 15mm, that should hold a lot more of force.
Im Also very interessted in the new 40T 219Sproket.

What do you think about a singlespeed setup at 4-5Kw with only two reductions? do you think the Belt with the 25T Pully can handle it? so first reduction would be 1:3.6 and the second reduction would be from the 40T 219 direct to the rear wheel with a big 219 Sproket. Possible?
I want do my next build without pedals...

im asking this because since i changed my reduction on the Small block kit, it seems like it can handle 3000W reliable, nothing streches or flex, no more beltskipping, even at 3000W full power starts... i have the "not so strong"-axle in the jackshaft, and it did not bend for now (after 1500Km driving with the new, lower reduction).
with the lower reduction, i have now 40 Km/h in the slowest gear, and still more than enough torque to climb, wheele, spin etc..
so the last 3 or 4 rides, i only used the bike in this one, slowest gear... only on street i changed a few times the gears, but for the offroad-parts i dont have to switch gears anymore :wink:


Here some fotos of the new Bike, installed a new SRAMX7 dereilleur and Cassette and tested it...









workes great, much power, same as the DH-Bikes... the motor was moving a little bit to the right side after 3000W-start tests. Its the same setup like on my DH-Bike at 75V 30-40Amps. only thing to do now, is to build a third fixation of the Kit on the upper tube of the frame to hold the Jackshaft strong in place.
... and then i will give it away... its a Medium Frame and i would need a large one but it was much fun to build this bike anyway.

Here are the 25T-Drivers Mike send me some time ago, i used to upgrade all Bikes with 2000W+ with those.


look how big they are

... now i wandered from the subject, in first place i wanted to ask you if the belt and Pullys would handle a 2 stage reduction direct to the rear wheel, as mentioned above.
... i place the other fotos and stuff in my thread, sorry for fotobombing yours

 

[LightningRods]

No worries about the photobomb, Stephan. It's always interesting to see what you are up to.

There should not be any problem with going directly from the output side of the primary jackshaft directly to the rear wheel. I think that the pulleys and belt will end up with the same strain that they have now as long as the overall gearing is not any higher. You will want to end up with around 8:1 overall motor reduction to the rear wheel. The belt drive doesn't care if you get 8:1 in two stages or three. The only reason to reduce the motor down to 32:1 is so that the speed of the motor matches your pedaling speed. Once you don't care about that you can do what you want.

Most people who have a system like you are contemplating have a normal bicycle driveline on the right side and then single speed on the left. There are a number of hubs and disc brake adapters to install sprockets on the left side, in many cases keeping the disc brake. Most of these chains are 1/2" #40. There is a wide tooth count selection of both drivers and driven wheel sprockets.

I've been thinking for some time about a single speed mount that puts the motor out in front and the output shaft for the final drive inside the triangle just above the bottom bracket. By grabbing the frame tube in between the side sheets of the mount bracket everything should be very solid. The new 15mm diameter hardened jackshaft axle will be good to have for this arrangement.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I'm having to abandon the 12mm standard that we talked about setting up 2 or 3 years ago. It just isn't strong enough for the power levels that my motors are capable of. Part by part I'm switching over to a 15mm standard

Always better to make any part of the driveline stronger. When we initially discussed 12mm vs 1/2 inch (12.7mm), there was no "big block" on the table...yet.

it seems like it can handle 3000W reliably, nothing stretches or flexes, no more belt-skipping, even at 3000W full power starts...I have the "not so strong"-axle in the jackshaft, and it did not bend for now

Music to my ears, Föppel. I am a big fan of 52V systems for the average guy, and at the 50A I now recommend the small block at, that's only 2600W. For 3000W+, the big block should run cooler even if the small block survives at that power. The 15mm upgrade is sweet, and going to Cromo for the shaft material? that will make these bomb-proof. 2016 is going to be a sweet year...

 

[eMTBHunter]

Hey, Mike. Will there be a way to retrofit the 15mm axles if I find my big block is tearing up the current 12mm parts?

 

[LightningRods]

Yes I've worked it out so that almost all of the current parts can be retained. Here are the new parts you'll need to convert to 15mm:

(1) 15mm axle
(2) 15mm x 7mm x 28mm bearings
(1) #219 driver sprocket with 15mm broached bore
(1) Driven primary pulley freewheel hub with 15mm bore

The bearings listed above fit the current aluminum housing and adapt it to the 15mm shaft.

Don't everybody get all in a rush about the 15mm parts. I won't have all of the bits until sometime in March. I had to order 300 custom broached #219 sprockets to make this happen. The standard bore is 3/4". I was able to use an adapter to 12mm but 15mm (nearly 5/8") doesn't leave enough material in the 3/4" bore.

The Luna drive gets the 15mm axle first because it uses custom hubs on either end of the lower jackshaft. I was able to change them to 15mm right away. The Luna drives will continue to have a 12mm chrome moly upper axle until sometime in March.

 

[LightningRods]

The new stainless steel freewheel hub and White Industries HD (and new UHD) will also retrofit existing mid drives that convert to 15mm. The W-I may be overkill for the primary freewheel since it sees less torque than the secondary side, but it will fit perfectly if people want to upgrade.

 

[eMTBHunter]

Awesome. No rush here, just wanted to verify that the upgrade path would exist.

 

[LightningRods]

Here's a youtube video that shows one of the major advantages of my mid drive over hub motors- hill climbing. What the video can't show is that the hub motor is too hot to touch and my mid drive's motor is barely warm. Climbing steep hills is one situation where gearing trumps just running more current.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vaxpnhSZLI