LightningRods
1 MW
The problem is twist in the upper bracket. We can solve that by making the bracket more rigid or by adding a torque brace.
LightningRods mid drive kit
- Thread starter spinningmagnets
- Start date
recumpence
1 GW
You actually do not need a clamp that is the shape of the down tube. The force is 100% focussed on pulling the drive to the right under load. Therefore, all you need is a bump stop to bump the drive against the left of the down tube. When the drive pulls, that bump stop would hit the frame and resist the load, therefore preventing the drive from twisting on the frame.
Someone needs to stuff something like a piece of industrial plastic (like UHMW or Delrin) in that area as a test to see if a simple bump stop would work. Should be easy enough to test.
Matt
Someone needs to stuff something like a piece of industrial plastic (like UHMW or Delrin) in that area as a test to see if a simple bump stop would work. Should be easy enough to test.
Matt
LightningRods
1 MW
jimnasium said:
I've had this thought in the past as a solution. A torque brace that goes to the bike frame has too many variables for me to be able to make it universal. A slide brace that goes from the top of the upper sheets where the torque forces are down to the BB section of the lower sheets would directly resist the pull of the chain. With a bit of work it could be integrated with a larger chain guard.
I am happy to report that after realigning and tightening everything down again, paying special attention to the down tube clamp and the lower sheet bolts, it seems to stay better in alignment now. I've only run a few tests, but I'll let you know if it slips during regular riding.
If you do come up with an improved solution, I'd be interested.
Cheers,
Jim
If you do come up with an improved solution, I'd be interested.
Cheers,
Jim
LightningRods
1 MW
One thing that's essential on the bottom sheets is the internal adjuster bolt. It's the positive stop against the motor that makes certain that the side plates can't slip under load. I'm glad you're getting things working for you. The adjustable sheets have worked well for a lot of users now.
justforfun
100 µW
We had the same problem on the gng when we started upping the power about 18 months ago, we welded a plate between the 2 upper sheets on the front to make them 1 piece, took out all flex even at 4200 watts
Think needmorespeed posted pictures somewhere
Think needmorespeed posted pictures somewhere
LightningRods
1 MW
This comment just came in from a customer in Croatia. This is what I like to hear. 
"You are making a good work, I am completely satisfied with my motor, going more than 55km/h on flat (just a short test, it is too dangerous on bike, I ussualy go 40), 1100km without issues, belt is like new, once adjusted I do not touch it anymore
Thanks"
"You are making a good work, I am completely satisfied with my motor, going more than 55km/h on flat (just a short test, it is too dangerous on bike, I ussualy go 40), 1100km without issues, belt is like new, once adjusted I do not touch it anymore
Thanks"
Is he using 50v pack? in fact is ANYONE using a 50 v pack and reaching such speeds with this kit? cause im always thinking this uber volt kit and anyone reaching 60 kph is probably using monster packs.LightningRods said:This comment just came in from a customer in Croatia. This is what I like to hear.
"You are making a good work, I am completely satisfied with my motor, going more than 55km/h on flat (just a short test, it is too dangerous on bike, I ussualy go 40), 1100km without issues, belt is like new, once adjusted I do not touch it anymore
Thanks"
skyungjae
10 kW
I've gotten very close to 55kph (hit 33mph) with the stock GNG 1.0 at 48V... I was pedaling super hard though. :lol:
LightningRods
1 MW
I have a road bike with pencil thin high pressure tires that I have pedaled to a sustained 30 mph (48 km/hr) on flat ground. I should install my kit on that bike to do the top speed tests. Don't expect the same results from your 45 lb fat bike with 3" tires and a 250 lb rider on board.
LightningRods
1 MW
Forty motor shafts going to the machine shop tomorrow. They're promising a first run of 10 shafts by week's end.
Don't look at the next photo if you're squeamish. Emaayan's motor laying on my work table with it's guts exposed.
I don't think I'm going to be offering this as an ongoing option. It's fussy, pain in the ass work and takes forever to do. Doing it once on your own motor is one thing. Doing it over and over in a production environment is another.
Don't look at the next photo if you're squeamish. Emaayan's motor laying on my work table with it's guts exposed.
I don't think I'm going to be offering this as an ongoing option. It's fussy, pain in the ass work and takes forever to do. Doing it once on your own motor is one thing. Doing it over and over in a production environment is another.
windtrader
1 kW
Great progress! Must feel most sweet for you LR, finally getting into the production groove and getting supply chain conditions on solid voltage!
As to the near useless (to me) recording of "how fast..." posts.
The best speed index comes with maximum number of standardized variables. Eliminating as many of the variable and uncontrolled ones is the goal. Has there been much done to develop some sort of simplified dynamometer suited to measure power to the bike wheel? I'm visualizing something as simple as securely turning the bike wheels up and applying some sort of fixed amount of resistance onto the wheel and record the max wheel rpm. Even this simple test would offer a fairly consistent index to use to benchmark each build and how efficient the overall drive line is and a tool to use to tune up various components, all striving to achieve or best this index value.
EDIT: The other factor with significant influence is the power source and that may make this whole endeavor questionable as it would be very hard to control this variable, even the same configuration becomes difficult to repeat as the condition of the battery and the environmental conditions are very difficult to control. Oh well. So how fast???????? LOL
Anyway love the progress LR! Congrats!
As to the near useless (to me) recording of "how fast..." posts.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if there could be a simple common procedure a measurement could be taken off the road wheel to report a useable power index? I love all the "how fast..." posts but so many are plain useless when a reported number comes from so many uncontrolled variables. With such a standard in place at least people can run tests using as many common variables such as no pedaling, gearing, GPS reporting on road with clear view of sky, 0% incline, smooth tarmac road surface, no measurable wind, test both directions on test section, etc. Then maybe a section to report less controlled variables such as rider weight, bike weight, wheel type, size, pressure, rider position (prone, upright), etc.
The best speed index comes with maximum number of standardized variables. Eliminating as many of the variable and uncontrolled ones is the goal. Has there been much done to develop some sort of simplified dynamometer suited to measure power to the bike wheel? I'm visualizing something as simple as securely turning the bike wheels up and applying some sort of fixed amount of resistance onto the wheel and record the max wheel rpm. Even this simple test would offer a fairly consistent index to use to benchmark each build and how efficient the overall drive line is and a tool to use to tune up various components, all striving to achieve or best this index value.
EDIT: The other factor with significant influence is the power source and that may make this whole endeavor questionable as it would be very hard to control this variable, even the same configuration becomes difficult to repeat as the condition of the battery and the environmental conditions are very difficult to control. Oh well. So how fast???????? LOL
Anyway love the progress LR! Congrats!
LightningRods
1 MW
emaayan said:
Upgrading the gauge of the phase wires. If you don't want that I'll be thrilled to give you another motor with the standard phase wires and the temp sensor. There was a lot of noise about heavier gauge phase wires and various connectors a few weeks back. I don't dispute the value of heavier gauge phase wires, I just can't do that in a production environment.
Yes it's an in-runner. The one with the heat producing copper windings bonded to the motor case for better heat dissipation.
personally for me i'm not looking for maximum parameter but a minimum one. the primary reason i'm switching from ecospeed kit , is that when using the bmc motor i added by myself on a 2000 watts, i can reach speeds of 53 kph on first gear alone, with great amount of acceleration. the downside is that the usage is around 36ah/km, so a 17 km commute to work, eats up around 12 ah, which natrually leads to twice a recharge a day , plus i don't get to use my gears, not to mention that the screaming angry banshi noise it makes always makes fear i'd crack the last magent i have left .
it's MAC version, is weaker, and only reaches around 40 kph, around 2-3 , but it has better torque (i think) i once rode only on first gear with it, and although i only reached 30 kph maximum the usage was around 20ah/km
so what i'm basically hoping is a "combination" of the attributes, meaning the motor might be really slow on first gear, but it would powerful enough to allow me to use all the gears up to 11th, where i'm hoping to reach my previous speeds. and naturally be more efficient
the thing i'm most afraid of is because of 67kv/rpm , a battery of 50.4 v won't be enough to make it go that fast .and ordering em3ev's triangle battery all the way from china using DHL's hazmat cost me around 2000$ which is REALLY not something i care to pass over. (i know he's planning a 79v triangle pack), what's i'm also ordering an extra set of "speed" driver/driven sprockets for 17.5 reduction instead of the standard 33, as well as 50T chainring for the crank (which i hope will fit my frame) these are the maximum speed setting i can think of making without changing the battery.
according the sheldon's brown gear calculator using an alfine with a 50T front chain ring at 120 rpm crank speed should yield around 85 kph, since the motor predicted no load speed with "speed" setting should reach around 192 rpm (67*50.4/17.5) AND assuming it's powerful enough to drive all the way, i should be getting the speeds i want.
or i could be completely wrong, and find myself chugging at 28 kph.
it's MAC version, is weaker, and only reaches around 40 kph, around 2-3 , but it has better torque (i think) i once rode only on first gear with it, and although i only reached 30 kph maximum the usage was around 20ah/km
so what i'm basically hoping is a "combination" of the attributes, meaning the motor might be really slow on first gear, but it would powerful enough to allow me to use all the gears up to 11th, where i'm hoping to reach my previous speeds. and naturally be more efficient
the thing i'm most afraid of is because of 67kv/rpm , a battery of 50.4 v won't be enough to make it go that fast .and ordering em3ev's triangle battery all the way from china using DHL's hazmat cost me around 2000$ which is REALLY not something i care to pass over. (i know he's planning a 79v triangle pack), what's i'm also ordering an extra set of "speed" driver/driven sprockets for 17.5 reduction instead of the standard 33, as well as 50T chainring for the crank (which i hope will fit my frame) these are the maximum speed setting i can think of making without changing the battery.
according the sheldon's brown gear calculator using an alfine with a 50T front chain ring at 120 rpm crank speed should yield around 85 kph, since the motor predicted no load speed with "speed" setting should reach around 192 rpm (67*50.4/17.5) AND assuming it's powerful enough to drive all the way, i should be getting the speeds i want.
or i could be completely wrong, and find myself chugging at 28 kph.
LightningRods said:
considering i found myself in a middle of a ride pulling a 4 mm bullet connector from phase wires like it was floating there, after presumably the soldering has melted, i think i'm gonna play it safe and got a thicker gauge , especially if i would run with all the speed sprockets i wrote i'm planning to use on it. (that's the same reason i want a heat sensor).
LightningRods
1 MW
emaayan said:
I'm going to keep saying it in hopes that it may sink in. You are gearing your bike much too high. First gear should be very low, in fact low enough that you may not use it very often for starting out on flat ground. If you have an 11 speed your top speed should be attainable in 9th, with 10th and 11th as 'overdrive' gears for quiet cruising at speed with low current draw.
If you have geared your bike so high that top speed is reached in first gear and all of the higher gears are so high that the motor can't pull them, what is the point of having multiple gears? You have first, second, and then unusable 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9.
An 11 speed is too many gears for an electric bike but at least the broad spread between 1st and 11th should be good.
LightningRods said:
the broad spread is what i was aiming for in the first place, i wanted to fine tune the gears for each plain of road , which is also why i stuck with rapid fire shifters. even you do end up using small amount of gears, you can still choose which range to use, while with smaller amount of gears you can't.
the outcome of not being able to reach higher gears was unpredictable for me. and was always the case with ecospeed kit. i mean with human pedaling i would never start with first gear, but with usually with 4 or 3.
the only difference between MAC and BMC was with MAC, the usage of gears was much more apparent, i mean with gear 1 i would reach 30 kph on 600 watts (after 1-2 seconds peek of 800 watts), gear 2 would be 35 kph on 800 watts , and gear 3 around 38 on 1200, gear 4 would get may be 40 and 1500 watts,
with BMC you'd be like gear 1, 48 kph and 1800 watts, and 53 kph on 2100 watts, but the acceleration would be spectacular, i mean , i would reach these speed in 5 seconds.
i always assumed that low wattage of the motors (BMC was rated 600 watts, and MAC was rated 1000 and actually was recommended to be used with 36v ), was what prevented them from being usable at higher gears , so now i'm hoping of even higher wattage on the GNG motor along with low rpm, would allow me to actually start at gear 4, 5. and quickly move to gear 6, 7 after picking up speed.
LightningRods
1 MW
emaayan said:
There is some truth to that. If you have enough power you can pull much higher gearing. But based on the top speeds available in each of your gears (I calculated all of this for you previously if you remember) it's well beyond the power capacity of even my more powerful motor.
You are creating a high amp/low volt situation with your high gearing. This is probably much of the reason that you have been cooking motors. Lugging an electric motor at low rpm/high current draw will make it hot. My motor will cope with this better than the BMC or MAC did but there's still no good reason to do it.
Do yourself a favor and set my kit up with the standard 12T/80T secondary drive and see how it does. I would guess that even at 50V/40 amps it will still not pull full rpm in 11th because as I remember you're geared for nearly 90 km/hr in that gear. At 48V/40 amp my small block should be good for 60 km/hr. If you want to go 90 you need a big block.
LightningRods
1 MW
I said previously that I would supply information about the bearings and hall sensors in my motors. I have the bearing information.
Front (output side) bearing- 6203RS (17mm x 40mm x 12mm)
Rear bearing- 6201RS (12mm x 32mm x 10mm)
I'm still trying to get specs on the sensors.
Front (output side) bearing- 6203RS (17mm x 40mm x 12mm)
Rear bearing- 6201RS (12mm x 32mm x 10mm)
I'm still trying to get specs on the sensors.
LightningRods
1 MW
windtrader said:
I agree with you Windtrader. It's a frivolous discussion. "How fast will a 350 Chevy V8 go?" In a Corvette or in a motor home? :lol:
Thank you for the good wishes. I can feel most of you wanting me to succeed and it does help me keep pressing on.
LightningRods said:
reaching 60 km/hr (in a high acceleration like i have now ) would make me a VERY happy man! (in some roads i'm using that's actually top speed allowed) , i'm not sure i'll even be able to stop or lock the wheels at 90 (not like i'm using gatorbrakes) . the only reason i was quoting 85 kph was because it's purely theoretical at no load, the biggest variable here ,is what would happen at load, i never anticipated to reach those speeds, but the higher the theoretical speeds i can get, the more confident i am , of reaching the actual speed i want.
that's also why i'm ordering the 18T/64T (i forgot the exact number, could be wrong here, whatever the minimum reduction) sprockets on top of the standard 12T/80T sprockets for the same reason i went for 11 gears, i want as much of freedom as i can and with 4 sprockets allowing me 4 different rpm's as well as 3 chainrings to select from (39T,45T,50T) i'm hoping to reach an optimal combination that won't cook my motor but would still get me 60 kph with better usage of amps.
so like i said having a 50T chainring with 17.5 reduction doesn't mean i want to reach 85 kph (sure would be nice though) it's just means i think i have a good chance to reach 60 kph, because like everyone else here said, you can't really be sure how fast you can go, and i don't want to be stuck without parts i'll might need.
