Loaded Tesseract Carbon Single VESC 6355 10S4P

[Ballistrophobia]

hehe not sure, a complete part list would be pretty hard to write down and the essential list is in the first post as usual. cant list every cable, connector, shrink tube and nickel strip I used on this ... maybe start with your build and this forum will gladly fill in the blanks when you have specific questions for parts or howtos!
[/quote="whitepony"]


Haha sorry, I definitely understand, that was a bit eager of me. I'm sure the complete part list is quite extensive if everything were included haha. I'm definitely motivated to get the build process started as I have a lot of free time for the next month or so.

What components of the build would you recommend I purchase/order first? I like the 18650 battery pack you built. I've never soldered anything before so I figure that might be the best place for me to start with my build. I was also hoping to use a single Turnigy 6374 motor from Hobby King (if one of these is ok), but many/most models are currently on back order, so I'm not sure if I should pursue a motor first. My budget isn't incredibly tight, but I do want to keep the costs low within reason and don't want to rush into purchases out of excitement if I should be patient and ensure proper fitment or build of another subsystem first, if that makes sense.

 

[whitepony]

sounds reasonable!

a battery is probably not a good place to practice soldering, because the 18650 cells are very sensitive to heat. most people use spot welders just for that reason! I build myself a spot welder with very few and cheap materials, so maybe thats an option: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=70435#p1062504

if you want to solder, use a powerful soldering station, flux and watch a few youtube videos on how to solder batteries, so that the soldering process is as swift as possible!

I ordered an SK3 6374 168KV myself some days ago. downside: they dont come with a keyseat like the mentioned enertion r-speccs. if you want to go with as much plug n play as possible, a motor set up for a key is probably a good idea! of course its no problem to flatten the shaft with a dremel or similar tools and use 1-2 grub screws with loctice --- overall I like a solid key though!

12 or 15mm belt drives are probably a good idea on a single drive, try to get as many teeth as possible on the motor pulley to help with torque transfer, the battery and wheel size are probably fixed quickly too, so the remaining part to tune for your desired max speed is motor kv.

and hmm, before you build an enclosure, always think twice about what flex will do to it. the forces while bending the board are incredibly strong! its also useful to think about vibrations, because nothing is more annoying than a rattling sound while riding imo.

 

[Ballistrophobia]

sounds reasonable!

a battery is probably not a good place to practice soldering, because the 18650 cells are very sensitive to heat. most people use spot welders just for that reason! I build myself a spot welder with very few and cheap materials, so maybe thats an option: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=70435#p1062504

if you want to solder, use a powerful soldering station, flux and watch a few youtube videos on how to solder batteries, so that the soldering process is as swift as possible!

I ordered an SK3 6374 168KV myself some days ago. downside: they dont come with a keyseat like the mentioned enertion r-speccs. if you want to go with as much plug n play as possible, a motor set up for a key is probably a good idea! of course its no problem to flatten the shaft with a dremel or similar tools and use 1-2 grub screws with loctice --- overall I like a solid key though!

12 or 15mm belt drives are probably a good idea on a single drive, try to get as many teeth as possible on the motor pulley to help with torque transfer, the battery and wheel size are probably fixed quickly too, so the remaining part to tune for your desired max speed is motor kv.

and hmm, before you build an enclosure, always think twice about what flex will do to it. the forces while bending the board are incredibly strong! its also useful to think about vibrations, because nothing is more annoying than a rattling sound while riding imo.

Thank you for all of this advice. I will do more research on spot welding.

Is this pulley kit from Enertion a good purchase if I go with their 6372 190kv motor? I see that you attached your wheel pulley to your drive wheel using bolts.
http://www.enertionboards.com/electric-skateboard-parts/12mm-wide-pulley-drive-hub-kit/

Edit: Just came across these high discharge 26650 batteries. They're out of stock currently, but do you think these would work nicely in 10s2p or 12s2p?
http://liionwholesale.com/products/basen-4500mah-26650?variant=14135870212

 

[whitepony]

Is this pulley kit from Enertion a good purchase if I go with their 6372 190kv motor? I see that you attached your wheel pulley to your drive wheel using bolts.
http://www.enertionboards.com/electric-skateboard-parts/12mm-wide-pulley-drive-hub-kit/

Edit: Just came across these high discharge 26650 batteries. They're out of stock currently, but do you think these would work nicely in 10s2p or 12s2p?
http://liionwholesale.com/products/basen-4500mah-26650?variant=14135870212

with my evolve background, I have a very strong opinion about these new enertion pulleys, but thats without ever testing them, so take it with a grain of salt. I think there were good arguments in this thread though: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=80130

about the 26650: yes, I think they are good cells for small batteries, a good alternative to lipo pouches. Im in love with slim solutions though and the 26-650 is a big minus over the 18 of 18-650! :lol:

Imo go 40 (10S4P) or 36 (12S3P) cells, its really all you can wish for if you dont plan to continuously ridfe at 50kph+!

 

[Ballistrophobia]

with my evolve background, I have a very strong opinion about these new enertion pulleys, but thats without ever testing them, so take it with a grain of salt. I think there were good arguments in this thread though: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=80130

about the 26650: yes, I think they are good cells for small batteries, a good alternative to lipo pouches. Im in love with slim solutions though and the 26-650 is a big minus over the 18 of 18-650! :lol:

Imo go 40 (10S4P) or 36 (12S3P) cells, its really all you can wish for if you dont plan to continuously ridfe at 50kph+!

Thanks for linking me to that thread. I was worried about the stress concentration on the truck axle that removing part of the hanger would cause. If other people, yourself included, have experienced bent axles, there is no way I want to go that route haha. Ashame that Enertion doesn't offer a different pulley. What pulley and hardware do you recommend for connecting the drive pulley to the drive wheel?

I do like the slim profile of 18650's. I was thinking since those 26650's I linked you are high discharge i could get a way with fewer batteries meaning less spot-welding for me to figure out (maybe just 10s2p or 12s2p). But a 10s4p or 12s3p pack of 18650's sounds like a good plan, too. Is there a huge difference between the LG HG2's and the LG HE2's 18650's? I see the HG2's have an additional 500mAh, but the best price I'm seeing on the HG2's is around $7 USD and the HE2's are only $4.50 USD. Buying 40 HE2's would be quite a bit cheaper than 40 HG2's.

 

[bobfandango]

yes, you are so right! :? after the latest burnt finger and destroyed enclosure I took a look at vedders antispark, problem is: I just dont have enough room! when I switched to the mini remote I had a REALLY hard time finding a place for that little receiver. and that would only resolve the soft start, Id still need a jack for charging too, so in the end I always need 2 holes minimum - and thats also the critical one since my on/off is ++, but the charger is +- female connector, ready for a short. didnt really expect carbon to be THAT conductive. :?

I had a 3.5mm charging jack on my topspeed build - that was really great, but required a large hole of nearly 2cm diameter which is basically the height of the carbon enclosure. so from a structural point of view, Id had to install that one facing the road ... problem is that the depths of that jack also might not fit the height of the carbon enclosure. its complicated when you want to make things as compact as possible.

ran the tesseract with my aluminum rubber tube enclosure for a long time like that and never had issues. I think the way I installed the female connectors now will not give me any trouble anymore. bit worried about the lack of "soft switching", but Ive had enough fiddling for now, just want to ride it! think I just underestimated the small resistance of carbon, thought its a conductor, but not a superawesome one like my aluminum enclosure. if I had actually checked beforehand, I wouldve been more careful with the installation!

maybe, if I feel like soldering again, Ill reorganize the elements on vedders antispark to fit into my enclosure. need less of a quadrat - ideal would be 10 x 1.8cm dimension.

Well reasoned... makes sense. But, a nunchuck would let you eliminate the receiver altogether. But I think I saw somewhere (maybe vedders forum?) that you used to use a nunchuck. Why'd you move away from that?

EDIT: Nevermind, I see in another post that your faraday ca.... er, I mean enclosure, prevents other controllers from working....

 

[bobfandango]

I do like the slim profile of 18650's. I was thinking since those 26650's I linked you are high discharge i could get a way with fewer batteries meaning less spot-welding for me to figure out (maybe just 10s2p or 12s2p). But a 10s4p or 12s3p pack of 18650's sounds like a good plan, too. Is there a huge difference between the LG HG2's and the LG HE2's 18650's? I see the HG2's have an additional 500mAh, but the best price I'm seeing on the HG2's is around $7 USD and the HE2's are only $4.50 USD. Buying 40 HE2's would be quite a bit cheaper than 40 HG2's.

First, here is a really good comparison between HG2 and HE2... https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/19198431-what-is-the-difference-between-the-lg-he2-and-lg-he4-which-is-newer-better

Second, I got 100 HG2s for $4.50 each through Lunacycle in February (with min. 50 cells/order). They don't seem to have them at the moment, but you could ping them whether they will get them again and at what price....

 

[Ballistrophobia]

I do like the slim profile of 18650's. I was thinking since those 26650's I linked you are high discharge i could get a way with fewer batteries meaning less spot-welding for me to figure out (maybe just 10s2p or 12s2p). But a 10s4p or 12s3p pack of 18650's sounds like a good plan, too. Is there a huge difference between the LG HG2's and the LG HE2's 18650's? I see the HG2's have an additional 500mAh, but the best price I'm seeing on the HG2's is around $7 USD and the HE2's are only $4.50 USD. Buying 40 HE2's would be quite a bit cheaper than 40 HG2's.

First, here is a really good comparison between HG2 and HE2... https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/19198431-what-is-the-difference-between-the-lg-he2-and-lg-he4-which-is-newer-better

Second, I got 100 HG2s for $4.50 each through Lunacycle in February (with min. 50 cells/order). They don't seem to have them at the moment, but you could ping them whether they will get them again and at what price....

Thanks for the info. That link compares HE2s and HE4s. I'm a little confused, are HE4's the same battery as HG2s?

Wow, $4.50 per HG2 is phenomenal! You don't happen to have 36 you'd like to sell me? Haha. Or does this forum happen to do group buys on occasion?

 

[bobfandango]

Thanks for the info. That link compares HE2s and HE4s. I'm a little confused, are HE4's the same battery as HG2s?

Wow, $4.50 per HG2 is phenomenal! You don't happen to have 36 you'd like to sell me? Haha. Or does this forum happen to do group buys on occasion?

Sorry, wrong link... Here is a review of the HG2 where they make some comparisons between it and the HE2/HE4 (there is apparently little difference between the HE2 and HE4): https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/57179459-lg-hg2-review-20a-3000mah

Sorry, but not interested in selling. Indeed, I wish I'd bought another 100 at that price... oh well... Unsure if the forum does group buys on batteries, sorry.

 

[lox897]

We do group buys on electric-skateboard.builders . Recently, we did a group buy on Samsung 25r.

 

[Ballistrophobia]

Thanks for the link and replies!

I read that article. The HG2 seems like a great battery. If I can find it for a decent price, I think I will try to purchase at least 36 for a 12s3p pack. If I am unable to secure a good price on some HG2's in the coming weeks, I think I will go with 36-48 HE4's which it looks like I can get a good deal on pretty easily. Does that sound like a good plan to you guys?

I will check out electric-skateboard builders. I know the Samsung 25r is a great battery. How cheaply were you able to get them through your most recent group buy?

One last thing. I've begun ordering parts for my build! Started last night ordering my deck, trucks, wheels, bearings, and some spacers. I'll probably order the motor, motor mount, and pulleys next. What pulleys would you recommend I get and where do you recommend I look? If the Enertion wheel pulley didn't require truck modification I would go with it. Would like at least a 12mm wide timing belt, but would love 15mm if you can recommend some parts online for me to order!

 

[bandaro]

People do group buys, check out the batteries section on these forums. There will be a buy happening or people wanting in on a buy.

 

[Ballistrophobia]

Found what I think is a good price on some LG HG2's. Just under $6 USD each including shipping. Do you guys agree that a good deal or should I wait for a better price?

 

[Squad]

Found what I think is a good price on some LG HG2's. Just under $6 USD each including shipping. Do you guys agree that a good deal or should I wait for a better price?

I found the same cells on aliexpress for 4,5$ incl shipping. They're sold in 8 pieces/lot for 38,16$, and when I ordered 40 (5 lots) I got some kind of discount and the price per cell dropped to 4,5.

 

[Ballistrophobia]

Found what I think is a good price on some LG HG2's. Just under $6 USD each including shipping. Do you guys agree that a good deal or should I wait for a better price?

I found the same cells on aliexpress for 4,5$ incl shipping. They're sold in 8 pieces/lot for 38,16$, and when I ordered 40 (5 lots) I got some kind of discount and the price per cell dropped to 4,5.

Is aliexpress reliable? I've visited the site looking for batteries, but I wasn't sure how trustworthy they are.

Are Samsung 25R's comparable to LG HE4's? I just found a good deal on them.

Edit: Welp, just purchased 36 Samsung 25R's at $3.70 a piece including tax and shipping. Hope that's an alright deal. It's by far the best deal I see online at the moment so I wanted to jump on it. Figure if necessary I can buy 4 more later to run 10s4p or 12 more for 12s4p.

 

[delta_19]

Found what I think is a good price on some LG HG2's. Just under $6 USD each including shipping. Do you guys agree that a good deal or should I wait for a better price?

I found the same cells on aliexpress for 4,5$ incl shipping. They're sold in 8 pieces/lot for 38,16$, and when I ordered 40 (5 lots) I got some kind of discount and the price per cell dropped to 4,5.

Is aliexpress reliable? I've visited the site looking for batteries, but I wasn't sure how trustworthy they are.

Are Samsung 25R's comparable to LG HE4's? I just found a good deal on them.

Edit: Welp, just purchased 36 Samsung 25R's at $3.70 a piece including tax and shipping. Hope that's an alright deal. It's by far the best deal I see online at the moment so I wanted to jump on it. Figure if necessary I can buy 4 more later to run 10s4p or 12 more for 12s4p.

where did you find that? the cheapest i found is $4.2 a cell.

 

[Ballistrophobia]

where did you find that? the cheapest i found is $4.2 a cell.

Yay! I hope that means I found a great deal haha. Here's a link:

http://www.gearbest.com/batteries/pp_241350.html

Edit: Also used the first promo code that came up when I searched google and it worked. This site also had great prices on LG HG2's, but they're out of stock, and honestly the 25R's at this price is a more cost effective deal per mAh.

 

[Ballistrophobia]

My Loaded Tesseract-complete from Nordboards arrived today. A bit disappointing. I ordered 83mm Abec 11 75a flywheels and they sent me 76mm 78a flywheels. I contacted them thinking it was a simple mistake but when I called they told me they were out of stock of the 83mm wheels and put on the 76mm wheels to ship the order out...

I was quite surprised. They didn't attempt to contact me regarding the wheel switch before they shipped out my order. They didn't even automatically refund me the difference in the wheel prices when they decided to put the 76mm wheels on my board (the 76mm wheels cost $10.00 less than the 83's I payed for). Also, and this wasn't a huge deal, but they incorrectly installed the angled risers I purchased along with the complete board, so instead of my Caliber 50's being wedged down to 45 they wedged them up to 55, on a board that already has a 3.5* angle at the trucks. After two phone calls I was able to get them to refund me a small amount to my paypal account, but the whole experience left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Just very disappointing. Hoping the rest of the parts I've ordered/will order for my build come in without any issues or more delays. I apologize for the rant. I am definitely excited to have my Tesseract and to order the next set of components for the build!

I don't know if any of you are familiar with Nordboards, but I would avoid them at all costs in the future.

 

[whitepony]

pfft, thats horrible, I also think the smaller abecs dont have enough "meat" to be comfortable, I would just return them to be honest! 90mm abecs gogo!

and yea, 55° calibers is WAY too much on the tesseract, since the rocker of the tesseract adds 3.5° already, which makes it SUPER turny with 50° trucks!! what a horrible store, they dont even know the basics about their products. :?

 

[whitepony]

spend another 200km on the board --- and Im really pushing it ... jumping down sidewalks a lot, really terrible pavement with small tiles. whatever I throw at it, it really just holds up now! no rattling, no tearing of carbon, no loose screws, no shorts anymore. 8)

the flex has increased a little for some reason, not sure whats the process behind it and if I should worry about it, but its just spot on right now - pretty much like the board has felt before I attached the enclosure!

I changed the gearing back to 15/36T. 16/36T with 90mm wheels was too wide. the 6355 really had to work a lot on inclines and the vesc kept powering down from heat. after the change to 15/36T, I didnt have that problem anymore. this tells me, that one should be really careful with high kv motors and wide gearing - on average they will suck more current than low kv motors with appropriate gearing, which results in uneccessary load on the vesc.

really looking forward to my SK3 6374 168KV now, think it will be even better suited for this board.

 

[randyc1]

Hi whitepony, glad to hear Gearing improved performance !.

I also am running 15T,36T with my 6364,performing great, but i have'nt really tried any hills yet ?

I keep thinking i should gear down to 14T since there is potentially way to much speed , might as well have more torque ??

Can't figure out what kinds bolt your using on the enclosure, is that a rubber washer ?, maybe that is helping the flex?

I think i will also try the 6374 for comparisons on my next board (192 or 168 KV ??),...looking forward to seeing how yours will perform !

 

[whitepony]

yea, I think most of us gear for too high speeds, Ill try to have max speed closer to what I ride on average, so probably going for 15/36T with the 168kV sk3 for a 43kph topspeed. if thats too slow, ill go up to 16/36T gearing again and check how it works with the larger lower kv motor - dont think gearing down the motor pulley is generally a good idea for the maximum torque transfer.

on my enclosure, I got 1mm thick rubber washers with these kind of black stainless steel washers ontop:

used that kind of setup to first of all allow quite high pressure on the enclosure without scratching or breaking it. between board and enclosure is strong double adhesive tape and the rubber washer ontop is really keeping the enclosure in place perpendicular to the screw. Im 100% sure that the enclosure isnt moving relative to the board at all! 8)

 

[randyc1]

Great fix!

The only thing i'm concerned about gearing down and having more Torque is maybe throttle will become Jerky and not smooth like it is now?


Did you see Chaka's take on Best KV on esk8 ??

 

[whitepony]

yea, started reading a little more on enertion forums since this section of ES feels quite dead right now ... also stumbled over chakas motor post. he mostly just pointed out the limitations of vesc of about 60k ERPM, which, coincidence or not, is also one of the most efficient working points for the vesc according to vedders experience: http://vedder.se/2014/10/chosing-the-right-bldc-motor-and-battery-setup-for-an-electric-skateboard/

since my gearing is kinda fixed, my wheels are fixed and my battery voltage is fixed, any speed you ride will fix your motor rpm. for my average riding of 30-35kph, its somewhere between 4000-4500rpm. so whatever motor I choose, it will run at that rpm, far off vedders magic number of 8500rpm or 60000erpm. I dont really see a way to get to that number unless I ride unreasonably fast or I use a gearing that will reduce the motor pulley teeth by a lot, which kills the torque transfer of the belt drive AND kills the nice smooth coasting that I have right now.


Im not actually sure what I can expect from a lower KV motor except for a better torque per current ratio. to ride the same speed will cost the same power (naturally, since the same work has to be done). a nice graphic to understand that can also be found here: http://www.mabuchi-motor.co.jp/en_US/technic/t_020203.html --> same speed = horizontal line = same current for identical motors with different winding numbers.

at the same time, for a constant torque you can see that different winding numbers produce the same torque with different currents (vertical line): more windings = lower KV = more torque per current.

when I ride with a constant 35kph, the only difference I will notice coming from my 192KV r-speccs, is the simple copper increase from 6355 -> 6374. the KV change from 192 to 168 wont make a difference, except for my top end power: higher KV = higher power output, since its running at higher speed and power is basically rpm x torque.

so, the only thing Im hoping for with the KV downgrade is less heat in my vesc when I really need just torque and still sufficient speed on the straights, since with 16/36T, the setup can still reach up to 45kph.

 

[Ballistrophobia]

Whitepony, what are your thoughts on this motor: http://alienpowersystem.com/shop/brushless-motors/alien-6374-sensored-outrunner-brushless-motor-170kv-3200w/

I've been trying to decide between an Enertion motor or a Turnigy motor (if they come into stock), but this looks like a nice option. This person also sells (but is currently out of stock) 15mm wide motor pulleys which would be nice to purchase together.