Harold in CR
100 kW
If you click on the enclosed motor, on the PMSM page of your link, it shows the motor drawing, and, made in China, on the print.
Mars Electric LLC Axial Flux Motor
- Thread starter Jeremy Harris
- Start date
bigmoose
1 MW
Way to go Harold!!! I missed that. Using your info I pulled up the pdf from the link you pointed us to and the original .pdf that was posted. They are IDENTICAL except his was without the gearbox. Signed, sealed and delivered. The mystery is ended. Thanks Harold!!
liveforphysics
100 TW
bigmoose said:
Right on!
TylerDurden
100 GW
Nice work, boys. 
EDIT: Let's send one to Jeremy.
EDIT: Let's send one to Jeremy.
Samba
100 W
bigmoose said:
That does look like the drawing. I wonder if thats one of those floor buffers that sits on a round abrasive pad and grinds away for hours, or one of those robotic mall-cleaner things thats like a mini street-sweeper? Do you suppose the motor has a face on it behind that gearbox?
bigmoose
1 MW
TylerDurden said:Nice work, boys.
I think that would be a terrific idea! My hope would be Jeremy/Matt takes what is useful and run with it!
Samba, when I googled 36 volt floor scrubbers it turned up mostly the large mall type walk behind scrubbers. Though one 36 volt floor burnisher with a handle showed up with a 3 hour run time. I am surprised, who would have thought a floor scrubber at Wallmart had one of the most advanced motor topologies buried inside it.
I am sure glad there are a lot of pointers to this endless sphere thread from the OP out there in internet land, sort of ironic, wouldn't you say?...
Samba
100 W
jmygann said:
Yeah for 1000 watts at 300rpm. Its like 10" diameter and 8" high Their 12KW motor is about that weight too.
AussieJester
1 TW
jmygann said:34 lbs ??
But it is 300rpm so doesn't need any reduction drive woohooo...
<---sarcasm by the way... Might as well use a Perm PMG80 @ 1/4 of the weight and shit load smaller Size: 5.9" diameter, 3.5" long yes they're discontinued but im sure theres old stock floating about.
KiM
GrayKard
10 kW
So the motor is already available? I wonder why he needed money then to make them? Or am I missing something.
Pretty heavy for an ebike motor. Might be better for a trike or motorcycle.
Gary
Pretty heavy for an ebike motor. Might be better for a trike or motorcycle.
Gary
TylerDurden
100 GW
Not that one, this one:GrayKard said:
5.5lbs
gestalt
10 kW
This is why I come to this site dozens of times a day, it seems like nothing can get you guys down.
etard
100 kW
Well I'm sure a floor scrubber doesn't spin at 3000 RPM, so it would need reduction just like your ebike gets from 12 tooth to 92 tooth sprocket.
Nice find Moose! I bet Randy had found a source that would sell him 50 motors at a discounted price and he was going to sell it to us at a nice little mark up and act like it was his motor the whole time, what a Jack!
Keep up the good work Ypedal, alot of us appreciate everything you do here. Not always easy cleaning up the garbage around here I'm sure....
Nice find Moose! I bet Randy had found a source that would sell him 50 motors at a discounted price and he was going to sell it to us at a nice little mark up and act like it was his motor the whole time, what a Jack!
Keep up the good work Ypedal, alot of us appreciate everything you do here. Not always easy cleaning up the garbage around here I'm sure....
Jeremy Harris
100 MW
OK guys, I'm back.
First off, despite having been a member of this forum for a couple of years or so, I had absolutely no idea who this 'Randy Draper' chap was or what he'd apparently done in the past - in fact I'm still not at all clear what it is he's specifically done, apart from behave badly towards Matt on another forum (sorry if you took my refusal to condemn him as taking sides, Matt, I was simply trying to stay neutral). I take people at face value unless I have reason not too, and to be completely honest I have to switch in some extra 'tolerance filtering' when reading stuff on multi-national fora like this one, because the cultural differences between us all mean that I'd maybe take offence at quite a lot of stuff if I didn't. For example, normal 'in your face' directness from some parts of the US can seem pretty rude to us Brits - we're just wired up differently.................
Anyway, good find, Bigmoose. John Fiorenza at Mars Electric is a good guy, I've done business with him and he really goes out of his way to be helpful to customers, so I'd not hesitate to buy from him again. For those who don't know the background, John Fiorenza worked for, or with, Briggs and Stratton on the Etek project, I believe. When B&S decided to kill that project, he seems to have set up his own company and has his motors built in China. I'm pretty sure that most of the motor design is done by Mars Electric LLC, with just production undertaken in China, taking advantage of their low labour rates.
It looks very much as if the motor that Randy told us about is actually the Mars ME0206020001, minus the gearbox, as you've worked out. My guess is that he was either buying them from Mars Electric LLC, or maybe out of the back door from the factory in China. It's even possible (maybe even probable) that another Chinese company has cloned the Mars motor; it's the sort of thing that happens a lot in the Far East.
Anyway, the way to get the specs is to ask John Fiorenza, so I'll email him and ask. Based on my previous experience of dealing with him I suspect I'll be able to get the full spec, with motor curves etc so that we can see what potential this motor has. With it's relatively large diameter and modest weight (it seems to be around 5 lbs without the gearbox) it seems to have a fair bit of potential. What is clear is that the data I was working with yesterday is flawed. I can't prove it, but I strongly suspect that the supposed 'dyno results' table was doctored, as the numbers just don't stack up as they stand.
An axial flux design is quite appealing for us tinkerers, for a host of reasons. It's potentially easier to rewind than a conventional stator, has rectangular slots, so will take rectangular wire for a better copper fill, can have an easily adjustable air gap, it should be simpler to fit adjustable position Hall sensors and, based on the internal photos, it looks like it would safely spin up to a pretty high rpm. It also looks more robust, easy to mount and has no externally rotating can.
Jeremy
First off, despite having been a member of this forum for a couple of years or so, I had absolutely no idea who this 'Randy Draper' chap was or what he'd apparently done in the past - in fact I'm still not at all clear what it is he's specifically done, apart from behave badly towards Matt on another forum (sorry if you took my refusal to condemn him as taking sides, Matt, I was simply trying to stay neutral). I take people at face value unless I have reason not too, and to be completely honest I have to switch in some extra 'tolerance filtering' when reading stuff on multi-national fora like this one, because the cultural differences between us all mean that I'd maybe take offence at quite a lot of stuff if I didn't. For example, normal 'in your face' directness from some parts of the US can seem pretty rude to us Brits - we're just wired up differently.................
Anyway, good find, Bigmoose. John Fiorenza at Mars Electric is a good guy, I've done business with him and he really goes out of his way to be helpful to customers, so I'd not hesitate to buy from him again. For those who don't know the background, John Fiorenza worked for, or with, Briggs and Stratton on the Etek project, I believe. When B&S decided to kill that project, he seems to have set up his own company and has his motors built in China. I'm pretty sure that most of the motor design is done by Mars Electric LLC, with just production undertaken in China, taking advantage of their low labour rates.
It looks very much as if the motor that Randy told us about is actually the Mars ME0206020001, minus the gearbox, as you've worked out. My guess is that he was either buying them from Mars Electric LLC, or maybe out of the back door from the factory in China. It's even possible (maybe even probable) that another Chinese company has cloned the Mars motor; it's the sort of thing that happens a lot in the Far East.
Anyway, the way to get the specs is to ask John Fiorenza, so I'll email him and ask. Based on my previous experience of dealing with him I suspect I'll be able to get the full spec, with motor curves etc so that we can see what potential this motor has. With it's relatively large diameter and modest weight (it seems to be around 5 lbs without the gearbox) it seems to have a fair bit of potential. What is clear is that the data I was working with yesterday is flawed. I can't prove it, but I strongly suspect that the supposed 'dyno results' table was doctored, as the numbers just don't stack up as they stand.
An axial flux design is quite appealing for us tinkerers, for a host of reasons. It's potentially easier to rewind than a conventional stator, has rectangular slots, so will take rectangular wire for a better copper fill, can have an easily adjustable air gap, it should be simpler to fit adjustable position Hall sensors and, based on the internal photos, it looks like it would safely spin up to a pretty high rpm. It also looks more robust, easy to mount and has no externally rotating can.
Jeremy
Samba
100 W
Mars may be interested if someone is trying to use their design without their involvement.
It could be that this motor at Mars has a different winding than Randy's guy planned to use. He might have taken dyno data from the Mars motor and cooked it to reflect what he expected from the alteration - and done it incompletely.
I think I never saw it because I've searched for BLDC motors and gearmotors and such and never thought to look for PMSM motors.
The gearbox could be interesting, but also looks like it could be lopped right off with a bandsaw. I wonder what the motor shaft is like tho, it could have a spur gear machined into it.
It could be that this motor at Mars has a different winding than Randy's guy planned to use. He might have taken dyno data from the Mars motor and cooked it to reflect what he expected from the alteration - and done it incompletely.
I think I never saw it because I've searched for BLDC motors and gearmotors and such and never thought to look for PMSM motors.
The gearbox could be interesting, but also looks like it could be lopped right off with a bandsaw. I wonder what the motor shaft is like tho, it could have a spur gear machined into it.
bigmoose
1 MW
This is looking good to get the details! Jeremy has a personal contact and insight into the company that distributes this motor. Give him a little time and we are on our way. If worse comes to worse, for $200 one can be in someone's hands. Anyone have and operating motor dyno?
liveforphysics
100 TW
Jeremy Harris said:
*Luke with huge smile on his face as he reads your first line*
Tiberius, Jeremy, and of course the outstanding Mr. Miles are the across-the-pond thinker and tinkerer dream-team.
Wouldn't be the same place with out all of you guys. You single handedly provide a damn good deal of the meaningful content I benefit from reading on this board.
bigmoose
1 MW
I can fully confirm it is the motor. I emailed Mars Electric about 8 hours ago on Sunday night, and I received a response within hours from John Fiorenza. Jeremy if you share an email via PM I'll forward what I have so you can do a proper followup since you have a personal relationship with this chap. We have everything but performance graphs. The gearbox motor has a helical gear machined on the end of the shaft.
Jeremy Harris
100 MW
bigmoose said:
Glad to know that it's definitely the same motor. I'll PM you in a moment; I've already emailed John, but I guess he won't be up and about in Wisconsin just yet.
I'm guessing that Randy may have been getting new shafts and end cases made for these motors, as the photos he provided of 'his' motor (copied below) don't show the full casing.
View attachment Axial Flux Motor photos.jpg
It may be that the motors aren't available without the gearbox, or only with the helical gear machined on to the shaft, but it doesn't look to be a hard job to make a new shaft and end plate. Even if we can only buy the stator, rotor and parts of the casing, it might still be viable as a project.
Jeremy
Tiberius
10 kW
You know, it looks like a whole lot of good is going to come out of this little fracas.
I wonder if that was the intention of the guy who started it
Nick
PS. Doesn't seem to be a smiley for "rhetorical question"
I wonder if that was the intention of the guy who started it
Nick
PS. Doesn't seem to be a smiley for "rhetorical question"
Thud
1 MW
Hey gang,
Nice bit of prospecting there BigMoose.
I went to the links Ypedal provided & have looked up the infamouse Randy Draper, aka Bob diode aka lipobiker (I will let Miles fill in the other Ailiases as they are too many to count)
For me I will be avoiding the guy if possible, other than irelevant video's that never show his bike or 10 year old archive photo's of the bike climb race, he hasn't posted a single nugget of verifiable information.
I recomend you read the exchanges at RC groups between this fellow & Steve Neu or Christian Lukas.
any time anyone totaly exposed a mis-represntation (maybe not intentional, we all make mistakes) the guy starts name calling...reminds me of some one :lol:
On topic: I am looking foward to getting a bit of discovery on these motors, I assume it can be ordered sans reduction in quantity maybe they would supply stators & magnet rotors? I know a guy who can prolly use the stator & magnet rotor as a base for a bike friendly,controller friendly motor. Who isnt afraid to show how he did it.
Too early to talk group buy, but any modifications or development work that needs to be done you can count on me to step up.
I guess I will credit RD for the initial discovery of the motor...Thanks Randy. Next time you show up sonwhere please have your ducks in a row & straight answers to straight questions.
Till then I'll be awaiting information from the source.
Nice bit of prospecting there BigMoose.
I went to the links Ypedal provided & have looked up the infamouse Randy Draper, aka Bob diode aka lipobiker (I will let Miles fill in the other Ailiases as they are too many to count)
For me I will be avoiding the guy if possible, other than irelevant video's that never show his bike or 10 year old archive photo's of the bike climb race, he hasn't posted a single nugget of verifiable information.
I recomend you read the exchanges at RC groups between this fellow & Steve Neu or Christian Lukas.
any time anyone totaly exposed a mis-represntation (maybe not intentional, we all make mistakes) the guy starts name calling...reminds me of some one :lol:
On topic: I am looking foward to getting a bit of discovery on these motors, I assume it can be ordered sans reduction in quantity maybe they would supply stators & magnet rotors? I know a guy who can prolly use the stator & magnet rotor as a base for a bike friendly,controller friendly motor. Who isnt afraid to show how he did it.
Too early to talk group buy, but any modifications or development work that needs to be done you can count on me to step up.
I guess I will credit RD for the initial discovery of the motor...Thanks Randy. Next time you show up sonwhere please have your ducks in a row & straight answers to straight questions.
Till then I'll be awaiting information from the source.
TylerDurden
100 GW
Josh K. is an ES member who has already used these on bikes, as BigMooose has shown. Draper prolly got the idea there.
I will PM Josh to see if he would like to share any thoughts.
TD
I will PM Josh to see if he would like to share any thoughts.
TD
Thud
1 MW
Another Shill exposed.
+1 TD I stand corrected.
+1 TD I stand corrected.
recumpence
1 GW
Looks great to me.
So, this seems to be a fantastic option for the sub 1kw arena.
What about 2-3kw? It is merely a KV thing keeping the power lower?
Just curious. I am unfamiliar with this motor style and its performance characteristics.
Matt
So, this seems to be a fantastic option for the sub 1kw arena.
What about 2-3kw? It is merely a KV thing keeping the power lower?
Just curious. I am unfamiliar with this motor style and its performance characteristics.
Matt
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