Motor cable question (front hub)

[slaphappygamer]

You may have an extension cable from the controller towards the motor. Follow the cable from the motor. You might find it’s the same plug as your new motor.

 

[SnowFox102]

Your motor connector appears to have a red o-ring inside it, and is probably threaded? If so, that's why it didn't pull off and got further twisted. I'm not familiar with that connector.

Most low power motors use a simpler Z91 connector, like that ebikling motor. You would have to buy a standard motor extension cable with a Z01 and attach that to your controller to use off the shelf motors. No big thing. Adds $15 to cost of new motor,

Yeah, it's a 9-pin connector but is threaded so it locks into the controller side. It also doesn't fit a standard controller cable, as I learned today. I got one on Amazon, mostly to use with the tester that was also supposed to arrive today. Since the pins of the motor connector don't protrude, it can't be plugged into the female end of a standard cable. I need a new cable anyway, so it looks like my best option is to get a standard cable like this one and solder a JST-SM connector for the hall wires, because that's what the controller uses for some reason. I can't seem to find a cable that converts between Z01 and Z91, maybe I'm using the wrong terms.

 

[SnowFox102]

Oh boy have there been developments! The company agreed (after much cajoling from me, and excuses from them) to send me a new motor, which I got today. Just the motor, not mounted to a wheel. Is it even possible to replace my old motor without specialized tools?? My initial googling implies the need for a gear puller which I very much do not have.

Being sent the motor came with the caveat that I agree to a Whats App call for them to "help" me with installation. Had it been a wheel I wouldn't need that, so I assumed that was just more of the thinly veiled misogyny of the second guy I talked to. But I can't learn a new skill that way. Parsing spoken language takes too much effort, so I have to learn how to do this on my own before that. I'm mad, and needless to say my review will not reflect well on this company when I write it.

BTW one of the excuses the second guy had was that my axle plate failed because someone stole the tiny bolt that holds it to the frame. You can't make this stuff up.

EDIT: Okay it looks like it's probably just a pop and drop situation. I'm still annoyed, but less so.

 

[slaphappygamer]

If you remove the wheel and open the side of the motor with the cassette, you should be able to pull the old motor out and drop the new motor in. Assuming it’s the same exact motor they sent you.

This way, you don’t have to deal with rebuilding the wheel.

 

[amberwolf]

Just the motor, not mounted to a wheel. Is it even possible to replace my old motor without specialized tools?? My initial googling implies the need for a gear puller which I very much do not have.

This is probably a geared hubmotor. If this is the case, the bolts (six?) on the left side of the motor need to be removed. Then before attempting to remove anything, you should check the right side axle to see if there is a circlip on it.

pics for reference circlip - Google Search

If no circlip, then simply put the right axle end on the ground, and push the wheel / motor casing downward, and the motor core and left cover will pop right out.

If there is a circlip, then it can be taken off, we'd need to see the type to suggest a good way with whatever tools you have available.


Assuming no circlip, then perform the same procedure wiht the new motor, and then simply swap cores and reinstall with the reverse procedure.


When done, reinstall the wheel and make sure the torque arm installation is complete and correct before operating the motor.


If you need more details on any step, just let us know.

Parsing spoken language takes too much effort, so I have to learn how to do this on my own before that.

I have that problem too--realtime communications are difficult; I do much better when I can process and reprocess a text-format, and compose a reply as the thoughts happen, then reassemble them into something ohter people can understand and post it.

(the last couple years' development of my tinnitus/etc has made RTC even harder)

 

[SnowFox102]

This is probably a geared hubmotor. If this is the case, the bolts (six?) on the left side of the motor need to be removed. Then before attempting to remove anything, you should check the right side axle to see if there is a circlip on it.

pics for reference circlip - Google Search

If no circlip, then simply put the right axle end on the ground, and push the wheel / motor casing downward, and the motor core and left cover will pop right out.

If there is a circlip, then it can be taken off, we'd need to see the type to suggest a good way with whatever tools you have available.


Assuming no circlip, then perform the same procedure wiht the new motor, and then simply swap cores and reinstall with the reverse procedure.

Ah thank you for that detail! I've set the project aside til tomorrow, I ran out of energy for today. It is a geared motor I'm pretty sure. I don't think it has a circlip but I'll check before I do anything. As for the torque arm, I already have a Grin V5, and a second on the way so I can have one on each side. Not making that mistake again!

I have that problem too--realtime communications are difficult; I do much better when I can process and reprocess a text-format, and compose a reply as the thoughts happen, then reassemble them into something ohter people can understand and post it.

(the last couple years' development of my tinnitus/etc has made RTC even harder)

Yeah, in my case it's mostly autism though tinnitus and hearing loss aren't helping. I greatly prefer text communication as well, RTC is exhausting.

 

[amberwolf]

As for the torque arm, I already have a Grin V5, and a second on the way so I can have one on each side. Not making that mistake again!

I think a fair number of people on this forum have had taht problem, and most of us act on that last statement pretty thoroughly.


Of course, the next step is to upgrade the power level of the bike so the torque arm securely holds the remains of the axle to the fork quite well while the sheared-off motor rolls away with the broken gears grinding inside. :lol:

Yeah, in my case it's mostly autism though tinnitus and hearing loss aren't helping. I greatly prefer text communication as well, RTC is exhausting.

Same as me then...(well, actually I've found that none of us nonneurotypicals (as my brother says) are atypical in quite the same way).

The tinnitus is, by itself, about as stressful as RTC, because it is an intensely loud noise that is like someone constantly screaming inside my head that never ever ever ever goes away. (I really don't like noises in the first place, and ones I can't control or get away from are really awful...but this one also interferes with creating "music" which is one of the most important things to me to be able to do).

 

[SnowFox102]

This tale is finally coming to an end! I installed the new motor today (it was indeed a simple pop and drop sort of thing, as slaphappygamer and amberwolf said), wired everything up again and it works perfectly! I did call the support line as requested, but caught the guy on a lunch break and he said to call later. I didn't need help so I finished up and just called him when it was time to put the battery in and fire it up, my intent was to let him look over everything before I turned it on. Except he didn't pick up. Oh well!

I'm not 100% sure of the placement of the motor cable. I wasn't able to make it fit super clean and I'm not sure how much I should care. A minor issue I'll work more on later before I ride next. Any suggestions welcome! When I've made my notes into a more coherent form I'll make a new thread about making a factory model into a respectable ebike.

 

[amberwolf]

I'm not 100% sure of the placement of the motor cable.

The main things I would recommend:

ensuring there is enough loose cable so that any amoutn of wheel flop or steering or whatever, even when parked somewhere that someone might move things when you are not there, will not strain the cable, or rub it on other things.

installing the motor in the fork so the cable exit points downward, and having a "drip loop" so water tends to run down off the cable instead of into the motor. (kind of like how you teach a dog to walk beside you with the leash in a J hanging loose between you)

Not tightening any zipties holding it down too tight--i'd leave it so the cable can still slide underneath them. too tight and they can damage wires inside teh jacket if the cable gets pulled on.

I did call the support line as requested, but caught the guy on a lunch break and he said to call later. I didn't need help so I finished up and just called him when it was time to put the battery in and fire it up, my intent was to let him look over everything before I turned it on. Except he didn't pick up.

That's the other thing thats problematic about RTC--other people always expect you to talk to them whenever it is convenient for them, but if you need them, they're not going to bother with you unless they feel like it, and mostly won't deal with non-RTC methods. :/

 

[SnowFox102]

The main things I would recommend:

ensuring there is enough loose cable so that any amoutn of wheel flop or steering or whatever, even when parked somewhere that someone might move things when you are not there, will not strain the cable, or rub it on other things.

installing the motor in the fork so the cable exit points downward, and having a "drip loop" so water tends to run down off the cable instead of into the motor. (kind of like how you teach a dog to walk beside you with the leash in a J hanging loose between you)

Not tightening any zipties holding it down too tight--i'd leave it so the cable can still slide underneath them. too tight and they can damage wires inside teh jacket if the cable gets pulled on.

Ahh thank you, that's exactly the kind of advice I needed! The factory tightened everything down really hard, so much so that the cable couldn't move at all, and the instructions actually tell you to make sure the motor is installed so that the cable exit points upwards! I don't ride in the rain, but the extreme humidity of the region means condensation is a thing I have to be mindful of. Tomorrow I'll make adjustments.

That's the other thing thats problematic about RTC--other people always expect you to talk to them whenever it is convenient for them, but if you need them, they're not going to bother with you unless they feel like it, and mostly won't deal with non-RTC methods. :/

Yuuuup. I called at several different points and always talked to one of two people, I think that's the entirety of their customer support team. Which is fine, but then don't expect stuff like having a customer do stuff with CS on the line. I'm just glad I had the ability to fix things myself and didn't actually need help beyond them supplying parts.

 

[slaphappygamer]

I’d hang on to that other motor. You might be able to use the clutch (or something else that isn’t broken) from the old one if anything ever breaks.

 

[SnowFox102]

I’d hang on to that other motor. You might be able to use the clutch (or something else that isn’t broken) from the old one if anything ever breaks.

A good point! I'm pretty sure the only thing broken is the cable.

Unrelated to the above, something I forgot to mention is that in order to install the inferior axle plate that comes with the trike, you have to torque out the axle a bit. That is, the plate won't match up to the fork unless the axle is rotated in the dropout slightly. I'm no expert but that doesn't seem quite right to me.

 

[amberwolf]

The factory tightened everything down really hard, so much so that the cable couldn't move at all, and the instructions actually tell you to make sure the motor is installed so that the cable exit points upwards! I don't ride in the rain, but the extreme humidity of the region means condensation is a thing I have to be mindful of.

I expect the upside down instructions were to accomodate a cable-length issue, or they think that having the drip loop hanging down is a catch-on-things risk (it is, but worth it to better ensure dryness inside).

In some environments that can be cold *and* humid, especially with direct-drive motors (unlike geared), it can even be helpful to have a tiny hole drilled in the outer lip of the side cover so that any accumulated moisture can drain, so it doesn't pool and corrode the magnets or stator laminations. A geared hub has space before a pool would touch those parts (though often less volume) so it's less of a worry.

Since you have waterproof cable conectors overmolded to the cable jacket, it's less of a worry that the motor heats up and pushes air inside it out thru that, then sucks humid air back in as it cools off...but it can still happen via bearing faces, the axle-cable-entry, etc. Not nearly as big a deal as water actually running down the cable and wicking in there, though.

I live in the desert, so the only water risk is in the once-or-twice-a-year I might get caught riding to or from work during a flash flood, and have to ride thru a foot or two of water. :/

Yuuuup. I called at several different points and always talked to one of two people, I think that's the entirety of their customer support team. Which is fine, but then don't expect stuff like having a customer do stuff with CS on the line. I'm just glad I had the ability to fix things myself and didn't actually need help beyond them supplying parts.

I originally started learning computers / etc because I couldn't afford to pay anyone to fix them for me, but eventually that and all the other things I learned helped me just get stuff done without having to deal with "support" or depend on other people who don't really want to help do the specific thing that *I* need to do, whatever it is at that moment.

Unrelated to the above, something I forgot to mention is that in order to install the inferior axle plate that comes with the trike, you have to torque out the axle a bit. That is, the plate won't match up to the fork unless the axle is rotated in the dropout slightly. I'm no expert but that doesn't seem quite right to me.

It's not...but it's also not uncommon to have parts incorrectly designed to fit the application and usage. Most of these things use parts designed to fit "everything" so they don't actually fit *anything* correctly.

One of the early Grin TAs had a star-shaped axle-mating portion that fit inside a star-hole in the arm itself, so it could be positioned at a bunch of possible angles. Unfortuantely this kind of design means there is a teensy bit of slop in that interface, plus the slop in the axle interface, plus the slop in the mounting to the frame/fork, and that all adds up. Sometimes it can cause problems (sometimes it doesn't).

Having broken my fair share of things I prefer clamping / pinching dropouts, so there is no separate TA. Not really an option without relatively serious re-fabrication of the frame or fork, usually requiring welding. The next best thing to that is the Grin v7 arm, but this isn't usually needed for the relatively low torque of a system like yours.

 

[amberwolf]

I’d hang on to that other motor. You might be able to use the clutch (or something else that isn’t broken) from the old one if anything ever breaks.

Ditto.

@SnowFox102 : You can even repair the motor cable itself to reuse the entire thing at some future point if necessary. (if the halls and/or speed sensor were damaged by any electrical faults, you can replace those).

I'm guilty of hanging onto too many broken bits, and have to regularly clean out things I haven't ended up using after a while...but sometimes those things end up being repurposed for other projects (some of my ex-ebike stuff and ex-music stuff has ended up going into the wolfy-bot project, for instance).

 

[d8veh]

A good point! I'm pretty sure the only thing broken is the cable.

Unrelated to the above, something I forgot to mention is that in order to install the inferior axle plate that comes with the trike, you have to torque out the axle a bit. That is, the plate won't match up to the fork unless the axle is rotated in the dropout slightly. I'm no expert but that doesn't seem quite right to me.

Often, when there's cable damage, it blows the hall sensors, so they need replacing as well as the cable. They're easy to test with a meter.

 

[gromike]

You did well, Snowfox. I'm mildly surprised that on an under $1,000 DTC etrike you got as much warranty help as you did.
I like to keep a tally on what it costs me to make a cheap bike serviceable. There is an art involved.

 

[SnowFox102]

You did well, Snowfox. I'm mildly surprised that on an under $1,000 DTC etrike you got as much warranty help as you did.
I like to keep a tally on what it costs me to make a cheap bike serviceable. There is an art involved.

Haha thanks, but to be honest I have a lot of experience in being a polite pest in order to get service. I have a lot of health problems and getting them dealt with tends to require a huge amount of persistence and assertiveness.

I haven't had to put much extra into this trike, just the Grin torque arms which were less than $100. Granted, that's because I don't like going fast and don't need to carry heavy loads or cover rough terrain. The frame actually seems pretty good (steel, and foldable) so it could support some pretty heavy modification though it would be costly. People often say that if you're going to do something like that you should just spend the cash on a higher end model to begin with. Which makes sense if you can, but I really can't. My intention was to spend less up front and do the work to maintain it. In the future I can replace things as needed, since it isn't proprietary stuff like my Jetsons.