Motorized Bicycle racing in Tucson Arizona

[Tiberius]

Hi guys,

A few warning bells are going off.

The phrases "run what you brung" and "properly organised race" do not sit well alongside each other. Couple that with the number crunching on laps and times coming out with low average speeds and it sounds more like a war of attrition than a race.

The old chestnut about getting the battery weight down low has popped up again. On a bike, this is not the best position for handling. Its been discussed on E-S before, back when safe was here. It's one of the things he did understand.

It all looks possible and worth doing. But remember you're taking them on on their home territory and they've got the experience. The race isn't always won by performance and power. You have to have machine matched to the challenge, and then you also need luck and reliability.

Nick

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The old chestnut about getting the battery weight down low has popped up again. On a bike, this is not the best position for handling. Its been discussed on E-S before, back when safe was here. It's one of the things he did understand.

Nick

As would anyone old enough to have ridden an old British motorcycle. My first real motorcycle (A 1959 Triumph Tiger T100, bought for £25) had all the weight slung low in the frame. A friend at school had one of the very early Hondas, a 305cc C77 Dream, which was lighter with the weight higher in the frame. Despite having an engine half the size, he could always beat me on any sort of winding road. At the time it looked like he was leaning on corners way too much, but this was what gave him the edge.

Jeremy

 

[liveforphysics]

Higher COGs are generally helpful for road racing, awful for drag racing, and really really ugly for technical woods or trials type riding.

There have been debates on-going in the superbike world over the COG height thing forever. Some manufactures go to extreme levels to get special engines designed to have as much of the weight as low as possible in the frame, while others even stick the heavier bits (like the tranny) up higher and higher in the frame, and get better handling machines as a result.


When a potential customer at the motorcycle dealership is sitting on the bike, and gives it a fling from side to side, regardless of actual bike weight, they get the perception of a lighter bike when it has a lower COG. If their application is going to be helped or hurt by this, they still will always feel like the lower COG bike is the lighter machine when sitting on it making decisions about what they want to buy.

In tight technical woods riding, or trials, the lowest COG possible is a huge advantage.
I remember a time I traded my KTM300MXC 2-stroke for a buddies KTM 525 4-Stroke during a fun technical section of woods riding. He wanted to feel what a crazy 2-stroke feels like, and I figured it would be fun to watch him wreck. What amazed me, was that his 525 actually was a 20lbs lighter bike, but due to the much higher COG, it felt like trying to push a battle-tank through the woods. When it opened up onto straights, it handled great and felt very stable, but at low speeds it was a total pig, despite being a lighter machine.

The newest generation of superbikes are pretty poor for stunting due to being so low. Just going a few years back, and everything wheelies and stoppies a lot easier from the taller bike design, but this of course means lower braking/acceleration limits on the chassis as well.

 

[Lock]

Oh goody... didn't want to go off-topic but as the thread is already there... I am only familiar with motorcycles where most of the weight of the vehicle is slung *below* the height of the wheel axles... I've always felt this was a positive thing for stability, and it seems to corner just fine? But this is just a get to work w/out spilling the latte vehicle and not a high-speed cornering device, so perhaps the physics are different. Not kidding... in my backward part of the world the gov deems these "restricted use motorcycles":


I AM 400WATTS... HEAR ME ROAR!
Lock

 

[dogman dan]

I think he's not trying to exclude us, or decieve anybody about the race length. He's doing it to everybody gas or electric. That's what makes it a death race even for the gassers. You can't go all out and get tired and start crashing. You have to pace yourself, but for what? It's finesse and endurance that wins it seems. It sounds designed to even out the horsepower differences in the gassers. I'll have fun even if I crash out, but if I don't crash, I think I can beat at least some of em.

 

[camlifter]

hi guys, been lurking here awhile trying to lean something about e-bikes. i'm a gas bike person first. but anyway, i'm putting on a bike race in ohio on june 5 at the lil indy go kart track in carrothers ohio. any ebikers would be more than welcome to come race or just hang out. the event is free and camping is available. may be closer to home than AZ for some. this is not an endurance race, 8 lap heats on a 1/10 mile dirt oval. lots of fun. heres a link with some vid of last years racing. go to the vid section, most gas bikes can do about 30 to 35 mph on this track, i'm a little slower, getting old and need to still make it to work on monday with out track rash. http://www.acmemotorbikes.com

 

[Thud]

Welcome Camlfter,
Your event is only a 4 hour drive for me. I also come from a "Engine" background & am intreaged by your website.
The twin looks like a fun project & lots of really nice builds there also.

I may make the drive down on the 5th. & I never show up anywhere without being ready to have some fun.
I would be going through Kfongs area, & Bigmoose is some where in OH I believe.

Might be a good spot for a Meet & Greet.
Thanks for the invite & ask any question you may have.

 

[AussieJester]

WooTz Dirt Track Speedwayz stylin!! Your lil e-BMX would hammer around there Thud and its closer
for you too!!! That would be heap of fun, hurts a lil less than the tarmac (not by much)
when you dropz it too hahaha...not that you will, you will be absolutley sideways taking the high
line out where angels fear to tread wont you Thud

Welcome to the forum Camlfter some damn nice bikes on your sight, i have actually
seen that twin on there posted on MBC got ALOT of tongues waggin alot thought it was fake haha

Best of luck with your up and coming event anywayz Camlfter hope it goes off incident free and all that
participate have fun and are un hurt

KiM

 

[camlifter]

thanks for the welcome guys. like i said any and all are welcome to the event. you don't even have to bring a bike.
yeah theres a lot of interest in the gas bike world for the V twin, the one in the vid is the first proto type, it was just 2 HT china 2 strokes choped in half and welded back together. we have patterns made to cast some case's now and hope to have that done soon. the v twin will be nice for board track tributes.

 

[bigmoose]

Yep, it's about an hour away! Already looked it up on the map... a hop, skip and a jump away. If you have the event, I'll be glad to take some pix's of it and our ES members for posterity.

 

[dogman dan]

Yay on a closer race for many of you!

FWIW, no reply from spooky on actual race length after my email asking for a set distance. Looks like it's set, at 30 mins or so. Hey, his race, his rules. It's not as if he set this up to be a electric vs gas challenge. He's been doing it this way for years, why should he change now? So it's an endurance contest, and now we know. A build that can win it is doable, but time is short for this year.

Anybody else still planning on it? I'll be there for sure since it's close for me.

Anybody in the SW interested in a dirt race? Lots and lots of fast riding roads here in southern NM. Fourth of July week? Memorial weekend?

 

[amberwolf]

Anybody else still planning on it? I'll be there for sure since it's close for me.

If I can get there, and I get the days off, I'd like to be there if for no other reason than to watch and to meet any ESers that will be there.

Plus if I can fix CB2 it might be fun to ride it around that track.

 

[Thud]

Looks like Safe is still checking up on us here. ( I still have no idea why the ban is in place Other than the kaos that followed him around, I arived a day or 2 before he disapeard)

http://www.motorizedbicycleracing.com/post?id=3683230
His posts are a day behind ours....

I have attempeted to register there, but it seems to be takeing awhile (?) too bad cause I loves to build me some engines.....

Dogman, I have a pm into luke to see if he is still planning to make the trip. I am doubtfull at this time as the race aparently is a marathon race after the warm up sprints. May be fun enough just to clobber the ICE guys in the 2 heats. Then just cruze the death race & see where you end up.
(as much as I would love to be there, I just can't justify the trip other than for a vacation....)

Amberwolf, Dogman, I wish you guys the best for the event (safety & FUN!!)
The race frame project is still on going & I may unveil it on the open forum.
I am an open source guy anyway.

 

[tritonwow]

Anybody else still planning on it? I'll be there for sure since it's close for me.

If I can get there, and I get the days off, I'd like to be there if for no other reason than to watch and to meet any ESers that will be there.

Plus if I can fix CB2 it might be fun to ride it around that track.

+1 I'll still have the cameras too. Hopefully I'll have the friction drive set up my then too.

 

[AussieJester]

http://www.motorizedbicycleracing.com/post?id=3683230
His posts are a day behind ours....
.

Thing that amazes me most about the site is someone made Safe a moderator...
The owner of the forum obviously has had no previous dealings with Safe
Poor bastards forums doomed from the start with Safe involved.

Thud..will you now change the design of the bike
to more suit the oval track form of racing perhaps?
I would REALLY like to see you and the Thud 2 speed bike
in action on camlifter's event, I have a sneaky suspicion you
would have a BLAST too old boy hehe :: wink ::

KiM

 

[camlifter]

the ohio race is a sure thing. already booked the track for june 5th, we also have the option to stay over to the 6th if needed, if theres a large turn out and everyone wants to camp over we will, if it's a small turn out it will be just the one day. hope this isn't considered thread jacking by posting the event it this thread. i'll start a new thread to remind everyone closer to the race date.

 

[AussieJester]

the ohio race is a sure thing. already booked the track for june 5th, we also have the option to stay over to the 6th if needed, if theres a large turn out and everyone wants to camp over we will, if it's a small turn out it will be just the one day. hope this isn't considered thread jacking by posting the event it this thread. i'll start a new thread to remind everyone closer to the race date.

Reminds me of the motocross scrambles i was dragged all over the country to as a little tacker LoL
make a weekend out of it, bring an esky full of food and a few ales a tent sleeping bag your bike and have
blast of a weekend with other like minded people...

KiM

 

[tritonwow]

Thud..will you now change the design of the bike
to more suit the oval track form of racing perhaps?
I would REALLY like to see you and the Thud 2 speed bike
in action on camlifter's event, I have a sneaky suspicion you
would have a BLAST too old boy hehe :: wink ::

KiM

29er/700c rigid frame, lockable cranks with shortened arms, left foot a-draggin', could be run on ice or dirt aka
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP20XTbeJvg

YES!!!

edit: Let's see if a you tube url works (motorcycle speedway racing)

 

[AussieJester]

29er/700c rigid frame, lockable cranks with shortened arms, left foot a-draggin', could be run on ice or dirt aka
http://www.digital-photo.com.au/gal...ownloadItem&g2_itemId=12397&g2_serialNumber=1

YES!!!

All i get at that URL is=

Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=12397&g2_serialNumber=1 on this server.

:-(

 

[TylerDurden]

Forbidden

No biggie:

 

[Thud]

hehe,
We actualy have a "speedway" scene in mi & ohio...a few die-hards who refuse to let socal be the only spot in the states for long track/short track racing action.

http://www.speedwaybikes.com/tracks/Mid-America.htm

The indoor ice racing series in the midwest is run just like friday night speedway racing in merry ol England & Aus. I beleive.

& yes...this would be the Nutz! for a bicycle racing leage to start. tiny tracks, short races. lots of action. I can see this as a great fit.
I have a bunch more frames to mod & a new 80-100 turnigy on the way...maybe a real speedway frame for me to play in the yard with.

the current build is a lil more universal. Higher bars for the roundy round, some drop's for the road racing.

 

[AussieJester]

Thud...the above pic Tyler posted is the speedway i was talking about in PM mate,
this is different from the style you were into correct? You had the large cc harleys and the like i was assuming?

KiM

 

[dogman dan]

I agree, short track dirt roundy rounds can be real fun! And perfect venue for Ebikes. 2 mile heats, bring several 5 ah lipo packs. Perfect. Besides coutersteering in dirt is just soooo fun. As it grows, we could have voltage classes for both frock motors and RC.

Again, we can set up a track in the old gravel pit no prob here. Or do some longer dirt road races in the open desert. Anybody within 600 miles interested, including lurking deathracers?

 

[Thud]

AJ,
We have both....Grand national style flat tracking (the XR750 Harley's on the 1/2 mile Or better still the Mile tracks) & "speedway" the Jawa singles & sidways madness.

I have never throwm a leg over a true "Speedway" bike. Put a lot of laps on some short tracks though. The local motorcycle club has a nice flat track & a TT course.
TT racing is about dead though....its a flat track race with a bunch of left turns, 1 right turn & a jump somewhere on the track.
My true sport though Is motocross.

Dogman- I really like the idea of speedway style bike racing. 4 lap match racing- 4 or 5 guys on the track at once-even if it was on a road course or motocross track...the format would create action.
set up brackets so every one gets 4 or 5 "heats" & the finishing orders sets the mains. C-B & A main.
Any back yard becomes the "track" too much fun.

 

[dogman dan]

Finally looked up the rates on our local track. About the same as others, $750 for a half day, plus a per bike fee, and you have to buy some insurance for more than five cars, motorcycles. But you can rent the track for one hour for less. Located near Deming NM. Arroyo seco is the name.

No way could I get bikes on that track for $15 each, as Spooky tooth is doing in Tucson. Thanks Spooky, you must be eating some cash on this race, or have a good freind there!

Glad to hear a couple of us will still be there after all! I doubt I'll make much of an impression with the gassers on my bike though. Yesterday I put my 5304 on a bike, but the too heavy rear with the battery there too made it handle for shit. And I'd have to find a loaner 72v battery anyway. No time this year to build a real race bike, but next year is a possible if I find I can handle the track this year. Keeping good handling in the corners and packing enough battery for that race length is no easy one to solve. Good excuse though, for frame hunting. I'm thinking something in a steel hardtail with front suspension and disk mounts. Shoulda kept the EVG frame. AND, I need to start looking at the non hub motor section....