Motorized Bicycle racing in Tucson Arizona

[AussieJester]

I'm thinking something in a steel hardtail with front suspension and disk mounts. Shoulda kept the EVG frame. AND, I need to start looking at the non hub motor section....

I wouldn't worry about any suspension if your only going to use it for racing on the go cart tracks dogman, you will save some weight to using non suspension front fork, those cart tracks are like billard tables suspension is not needed IMO. If though your going to use it on the dirt with Thudster you will definately need front end sprung but still, not the rear. Short track speedway bikes (Jawas, Weslakes etc) have hard tails.

KiM

 

[Thud]

I just checked on the Motorized bike racing forum. (I regestered there but have not been activated yet)
I don't think this is a call out.

Safe said:
A message to the electric bike riders over on Endless Sphere.

You might just drop the idea of victory in the "Death Race" as the racing style appears to be geared toward longer distances. What makes sense is to ignore the pack and just focus on the idea of setting the fastest single lap time.

Win the fastest lap and that's worth bragging about.

It sounds like there will be people riding the track continuously from Noon until close at 5pm so you would just go out one lap at a time and search for the fastest lap time. You could make pit stops for recharging as an hour is enough time to recharge for some battery systems. So I'd just recommend focusing on the one goal of fastest lap time and not getting too caught up in some abstract argument about speed / distance issues which is just going to piss off the ICE riders and make the electric look lame.

Hopefully there are some faster electric bikes that can make it.


As it looks now I don't think the electric bikes will win the fastest lap or the "Death Race" but I'm still happy that the go kart track racing venue is being used.

It's happening as I've always wanted and sooner than I thought.

I am too far away to really Do anything about this, but I am building a bike I think will embarass the gassers (any thing I have seen thus far bolted to a bicycle frame) for a single lap, make that a 5 lap sprint.
If Live for Physics can get the time off work he says he's still "in" for the event.

It may not be the dream bike with dual front discs & racing slicks....but it will be =2 or > the competition on bicycle equipment.

 

[AussieJester]

Thing is with Safe Thud, he has absolutely no freakin idea how fast these rc powered bikes are, he is using 750watt brushed unite motors
his acceleration speeds is piss poor. He still uses SLA batteries combined with nicads his bike weighs nearly as much as a 125cc dirt bike.

This amused me..."It's happening as I've always wanted and sooner than I thought."

Yes it is primarily because OTHER PEOPLE have organised it rather than talking about it for 4 years like Safe. All he managed to do in 4 years was piss everyone off with constant off topic spam of EBRR crap, He never lifted a finger to organise an event such as Spooky Tooth have done and he never intended to let ICE motorised bicycles compete either now hes seen theres interest because they are involved he has done a complete 180 and is trying to ride on the coat tails of Spooky Tooths event success making out it was his idea all along, what a crock but to be expected from Safe i guess.

Thud you would have no problems lapping the ICE bicyles with a 44v turnigy setup with a 66v sheeeet... Can only imagine how narly that would be!

KiM

 

[FeralDog]

Not to wander too far Off-Topic , and thus into dumb question territory , BUT I'm Curious about something characteristic of electric motors.

SO-----
In a e-bike drag race, if you START by "hot-shoeing" an e-motor bike to a stationary higher voltage source, then after it has accelerated underway and the 'shoe' isn't hot anymore (cause ya' run out of stationary connection), switch to on-bike battery power, would it run a lot faster 1/8 mile times? Or faster single lap on a 1/4 mile oval?
I mean , if the race rules are loose, and well ...... {I facetiously touch the subject here >>> http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=17266&start=15 }

Could a very fast e-bike switch from stationary power source, to on-board battery power switch even be practically made?
How bout a capacitor start?
Solenoid engage a hi-speed rotating flywheel?

I have no idea of the workability , as my electronic ability is retarded ,
{hummm.... so 1/8th straight mile is 660-plus feet of extension cord, need cord reels, duct tape .... :lol: ... or even a center pivot tether power cord in the middle of the oval track [everyone in pits must duck when cord passes over] .... so what is radius of 1/4 mile oval ellipse .... just kidding.}
Tongue-in-cheek point is that with loose racing rules, electric bikes Versus ICE can get quite "inventive", and even "competitive".

 

[GrayKard]

AND, I need to start looking at the non hub motor section....

We're losing another one to the dark side! Nooooo



Oh man, I'm so close to buying a bus ticket over there for the race, not sure if I could get off work though...

Gary

 

[dogman dan]

Dark side, heh heh. More like the it would be the make me work and make me think, and learn to weld side.

But seriously, every time I get out the rear 5304 and bolt it up on a frame I ride it and think, Jeeze this thing handles like puke. Even with the battery in the triangle, it couldn't cure that heavy back wheel. So mabye more power belongs where they put it on motorcycles. I just haven't ever had a frame with suspension that gave me anywhere good to put the battery. So I flog along with lower powered motors that at least aren't so heavy.

I was sorta thinking the hardtail frame with suspension front would be a good compromise for flat tracking dirt, and then could have a suspension corrected hard fork installed for once a year at the asphalt. Not that even the best bike would make an old fart that competitive again. Would be cool though to have somthing here for the fast riders to use when they come though.

 

[tostino]

Feral, the connection to an outside power source idea I don't think is a very practical one. From a standard outlet, you can only draw 1500w. It takes very little in the way of batteries to be able to put out way more than that (with RC LiPo at least...)

A little 36s2p 20c Zippy or Turnigy pack will put out 26.6KW at 20c (which is the sustained discharge rate... not burst). That pack would weigh somewhere around 21lbs with all the wiring and all, and cost about $800. LiPo is currently the best there is for high power discharges. They beat ultra caps for the same weight/size, and completely destroy them as far as price goes.

And that is 20c lipo... if you want, you could spend more on 40c for the same weight and size, and double the pack output power. Batteries are not the limiting factor for power at the bicycle scale.

 

[AussieJester]

Dark side, heh heh. More like the it would be the make me work and make me think, and learn to weld side. .

"You don't know the power of the dark side!" You must unleash the non-frock within Dogman
this is the only way you will destroy the frock

KiM

 

[amberwolf]

Dark side, heh heh. More like the it would be the make me work and make me think, and learn to weld side.

Not necessarily. I'm still working on that no-weld cargobike, which will end up with a bolt-together chaindrive power solution eventually. It'd be applicable to shorter versions of it, too.

 

[AussieJester]

Dark side, heh heh. More like the it would be the make me work and make me think, and learn to weld side.

Not necessarily. I'm still working on that no-weld cargobike, which will end up with a bolt-together chaindrive power solution eventually. It'd be applicable to shorter versions of it, too.

Best of luck with that project amber does look interesting. I still think welding is the better option for frame construction however, as you know these motors have alot of torque IIRC you have twisted several sprockets already? Either way though, Dogman will come to the darkside, strong is the darkside it is, greatest potential unleashed you will uh huh

KiM

 

[amberwolf]

Best of luck with that project amber does look interesting. I still think welding is the better option for frame construction however, as you know these motors have alot of torque IIRC you have twisted several sprockets already?

Oh, welding is definitely stronger, though the twisted sprockets were from a different problem on a different bike.

As long as I can keep things lined up I shouldn't have that problem on this one, and I think half my problems on CB2 are from having the pedal and motor drivelines pass too close to each other and sometimes have the chains touch or rub and pull on each other and stuff, though I've never seen it happen on the road I can make it happen in a bench test.

Of course, the first thing the cargo bike will have is a hub motor, just so I can test the actual framework on the road without dealing with chain issues first, too.

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah but look at the stuff the guys who can really weld can make. Aussie Jesters trike, Hals FS frame with the great battery space, etc. But the better bikes do have good frames too. I'm just generaly too cheap to buy em till they are in the dumpster. The two nice frames I have bought have little space for batteries.

I find the compromise battery carry on the rear rack is fine for mundane commuting and cross country riding. But once you start talking racing, any compromises in handling will become intolerable. A hub motor is not going to be ideal on that go kart track. Only a frame built to carry a huge battery right is going to win that death race if it is that long.

I'm pretty old to get into racing, but a race ready bike would still be real fun to poke around on posing. All fantasy anyway, with my dentist taking every cent I make. I see bikes like I see women, I'd like to ride em all but know I won't get to. But there's always a rich and varied fantasy life.

 

[AussieJester]

I'm pretty old to get into racing, .

That what i think makes this motored bicyle racing appealing to the older fellas, its not so fast as your going to get real busted up when you drop it on a track opposed to coming off on a motorbike doing a couple hundred kilometres an hour, i reckon you will feel like a 20 year old again after a few laps Dogman and you will find yourself trying to go faster and faster as the adrenalin kicks in.

As to welding up a frame it really isn't one of the more difficult job mate, make up a frame jig and it makes it a whoooole lot easier and doable by just about anyone willing to put in a few hours practising welding. The profiling of the tubing IMHO is the more difficult part, this can be made easier for the newbie by using free software, pluging in the angle and tubing size and printing out a template that wraps around the tubing. Before you know it you will have yourself a full custom bike And if you dont like it call it practise chop it up and do it again, for ~60-80 bucks you can buy enough tubing to make 3-4 frames.

KiM

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how much of the adrenaline junky is left in me. I know I can lean it at 25 mph, but will I at 30? I don't know. I gotta go to that high school sunday morning and find out in the parking lot. But yeah, laying it down at 25-30 on asphalt should only result in a few abrasions. One advantage of a voltage limited class of ebikes racing would be the ability of older geezers like me to have fun at lower speeds. I wish another 48v bike was coming for a race within the race, but I still think even I will be able to beat a few of the guys I saw in you tube that don't corner so great.

Getting a dirt track racing interest here will be difficult. Only about 8 ebikes in town total. Nobody at all riding fast like I do. Two cargo bikes, Two EVG's, a few curries, that sort of thing.

I'm still pretty brave flying a hot air balloon, so I know I can function fine while pissing my pants. My wife swears I'm not happy till I am pissing. Used to judge a rock climb by the size of the wet spot. :lol: I had to give up ballooning for lack of money. Still trying to pay for 8 years of flying now as well as the recent dental bills.

But as into ebikes as I'm getting, a wire feed welder is looking like a good birthday present to myself. Followed by some RC motors for christmas? I still jones for an E trials bike, with tons of torque and a top speed of about 5 mph. Not gonna find that in any hubmotor.

 

[AussieJester]

I still jones for an E trials bike, with tons of torque and a top speed of about 5 mph. Not gonna find that in any hubmotor.

You and GWhy i believe, he is keen to get a decent full size trials bike happening.

You might find more people (in your area) pop out of the wood work when/if some dirt track racing is organised? people will see its cheap fun (they could start with the cheaper 49cc ICE setup)? and move to electric if they find it fun and want to go faster, either way though, it would bring up the numbers and make for some fun cheap weekend racing.

KiM

 

[camlifter]

i play at trials riding, have a gasgas 280 pro, not all that good at it but it sure is a fun work out, it's amazing how tired you get just from trying not to move. there was some talk on the trials forums about an electric bike, most thought you would still need a flywheel and clutch so you could spin up the flywheel and release all the energy at once. the reason a trials bike can do the things it does is by releasing all the stored energy in the tires, suspension and flywheel in a burst, letting it leap.

 

[swbluto]

i play at trials riding, have a gasgas 280 pro, not all that good at it but it sure is a fun work out, it's amazing how tired you get just from trying not to move. there was some talk on the trials forums about an electric bike, most thought you would still need a flywheel and clutch so you could spin up the flywheel and release all the energy at once. the reason a trials bike can do the things it does is by releasing all the stored energy in the tires, suspension and flywheel in a burst, letting it leap.

There's no doubt a flywheel would help, but electric's starting torque may just be good enough on its own. However, depending on the motor, constantly being at the starting motor's starting point might overheat the motor and/or controller due to the high current involved.

 

[Thud]

I just orderd a 49cc gas motor kit
I now have the ultimate(granted in micro scale) performance hybred potential.......
I love the smell of pre-mix in the morning.






ya'll don't think less of me now do ya?

 

[camlifter]

I just orderd a 49cc gas motor kit
I now have the ultimate(granted in micro scale) performance hybred potential.......
I love the smell of pre-mix in the morning.






ya'll don't think less of me now do ya?

now ya gota work for it. just can't turn up the volts anymore.

 

[liveforphysics]

I worked the numbers, and I can't make this race.

I'm sorry. After paying my taxes, I'm in bad shape fiancially, and the dual $400 bribes it would require to get my co-workers to take the two shifts for me to get me the days off needed, along with airfare/shipping is just an expense I can't justify at the moment. My next 2 paychecks will go entirely to child-support, rent and paying the bills I missed paying from the tax-man cleaning out my savings...

I will however send a 4P20S LiPo pack down to Dogman, Amberwolf, Thud, or whoever is going to be doing there best to represent for ES. I'm very sorry to let you guys down. :'(

Sad,
-Luke

 

[amberwolf]

Well, maybe next year. At the moment there is a chance I'll be there as a spectator, but probably not gonna have a vehicle available that's large enough to haul the bike down there with. (and I still haven't come up with a way to fix the chain problem yet, but I had another idea tonite that I'm going to work on).

Looks like Dogman and maybe Thud are it.

 

[dogman dan]

I don't have the controller to handle that lipo pack. So don't bother. I might have got one, but didn't because I didn't know of a battery I could use. And again, I don't know that I'd have the skill to hop on a bike with 3x the power and handle it well without lots of practice. I haven't ridden a fast motorcycle in 20 years.

I'll just have to settle for 30 mph, and looking good in the corners. If I did run 70 volts or so, I doubt that bike would brake good enough to handle diving into the corners that fast. I can't justify racing my expensive bikes, and possibly laying them down. It'll be intresting to see how a lame commuter set up stacks up there anyway. Next year though, I can see a myself showing up with a faster bike, with disk brakes. Santa, I want lipo for christmas. Depending on the actual race length, it might have to be a lot of it.

I've been practicing every day though, and have improved my knee dragging. The Emory pass trip last week showed me I still have some nerve left. I have a nice tire on the bike, a v shape profile that improves the contact patch when you lean it, but has a very narrow patch on the straights to lower rolling resistance. I can see by the wear on them that I am using all of the side of the tires in corners.

Unfortunately my helmet cam took a crap on me. It seemed like a battery hog when I got it, but now it will only turn on for a few seconds. Something must have shorted out in there. My wife is going, and will take some video with another camera from the sidelines.

 

[tritonwow]

Unfortunately my helmet cam took a crap on me. It seemed like a battery hog when I got it, but now it will only turn on for a few seconds. Something must have shorted out in there. My wife is going, and will take some video with another camera from the sidelines.

I still plan on attending (as a spectator) and have a GoPro helmet cam you can use.

 

[nwmtnbiker]

I don't have the controller to handle that lipo pack. So don't bother. I might have got one, but didn't because I didn't know of a battery I could use. And again, I don't know that I'd have the skill to hop on a bike with 3x the power and handle it well without lots of practice. I haven't ridden a fast motorcycle in 20 years.

I'll just have to settle for 30 mph, and looking good in the corners. If I did run 70 volts or so, I doubt that bike would brake good enough to handle diving into the corners that fast. I can't justify racing my expensive bikes, and possibly laying them down. It'll be intresting to see how a lame commuter set up stacks up there anyway. Next year though, I can see a myself showing up with a faster bike, with disk brakes. Santa, I want lipo for christmas. Depending on the actual race length, it might have to be a lot of it.

I've been practicing every day though, and have improved my knee dragging. The Emory pass trip last week showed me I still have some nerve left. I have a nice tire on the bike, a v shape profile that improves the contact patch when you lean it, but has a very narrow patch on the straights to lower rolling resistance. I can see by the wear on them that I am using all of the side of the tires in corners.

Unfortunately my helmet cam took a crap on me. It seemed like a battery hog when I got it, but now it will only turn on for a few seconds. Something must have shorted out in there. My wife is going, and will take some video with another camera from the sidelines.

Have fun and don't lean too far. (I hope you're going to wear leathers.)

 

[Thud]

Luke said:

I will however send a 4P20S LiPo pack down to Dogman, Amberwolf, Thud, or whoever is going to be doing there best to represent for ES. I'm very sorry to let you guys down. :'(

Sad,
-Luke

I figured "Life happens" & it & thats the way it is. No sweat LFP. I just lost all of last week on a road trip so my road racer build got side swiped by life also. (got in at 3:30am this morning) The good news is I now have some DOT rated tires for my builds, the 16" pirrellies fit a 20" rim nicely. that has been a concern of mine regarding bicycle parts.

I will be at the race in Ohio on June 5th & Invite anyone in the vincinity to show up. I will make some contacts before taking that trip. I will have my electric racer configured for left turn action & a motored bike to play with also.
Dogman,amberwolf, Good luck & have some fun at the "Death race". If there is any thing I can do to support, I would love to help.