My ebike PAS is too aggressive

[jnelson]

So as a complete newbie I hope I do this right. I am new to ebikes, and am not looking for more than an easy ride experience.

Looking up FOC I read a lot of amazing science type threads. Lots of smart people here. But I have to start somewhere.

Last year we had good results with a purchase for my wife, Heather. This year, mine was not as good. The PAS is too aggressive, and there is no resolution with the vendor (and too much time has elapsed to return it.)

The PAS starts at 8mph versus the wife's 5mph.

This is what I was thinking:

My Bike
Heybike Ranger 2.0
FOC Sine Wave Controller PAS Set Electric Bicycle Controller Kit
Heybike Ranger 2.0

Ranger Foldable Ebike
Motor Peak 1400W
Top Speed 28 MPH
(I'll never go over 15.)
Battery 48V 12.5Ah
Charging Time 4-5 hours
Fat Tire 20" x 4" Fat Tire

Potential improvement? Is this a good replacement?

Ebike 26A Sine Wave Controller with CS866 Color Display
FOC Sine Wave Controller PAS Set Electric Bicycle Controller Kit
FOC Sinewave controller/kit

 

[E-HP]

So as a complete newbie I hope I do this right. I am new to ebikes, and am not looking for more than an easy ride experience.

Looking up FOC I read a lot of amazing science type threads. Lots of smart people here. But I have to start somewhere.

Last year we had good results with a purchase for my wife, Heather. This year, mine was not as good. The PAS is too aggressive, and there is no resolution with the vendor (and too much time has elapsed to return it.)

The PAS starts at 8mph versus the wife's 5mph.

This is what I was thinking:

My Bike
Heybike Ranger 2.0
FOC Sine Wave Controller PAS Set Electric Bicycle Controller Kit
Heybike Ranger 2.0

Ranger Foldable Ebike
Motor Peak 1400W
Top Speed 28 MPH
(I'll never go over 15.)
Battery 48V 12.5Ah
Charging Time 4-5 hours
Fat Tire 20" x 4" Fat Tire

Potential improvement? Is this a good replacement?

Ebike 26A Sine Wave Controller with CS866 Color Display
FOC Sine Wave Controller PAS Set Electric Bicycle Controller Kit
FOC Sinewave controller/kit

Budget ebike controllers either use speed based control, or current/power based control. With speed based control throttle position or PAS levels equates to a speed. The controller will give full power until it reaches that speed, then backs down the power to maintain that speed. With current based control, the throttle or PAS level determines how much current goes to the motor. This usually feels more natural/predictable. (If your car were speed based, then imagine flooring it after every stop sign, or backing out of your driveway).

A lot of those JN/DC MOTO controllers are speed based. KT controllers are mostly current/power based, and for cadence PAS, does a pretty good job of feeling natural. The GRIN stuff is programmable, so alo a good option, although you pay for that flexibility. There are other options such as open source firmware for some controllers and/or displays that can customize the behavior or add ability to use torque sensors.

Another option, if your bike currently has a throttle, is to add a cycle analyst in front of the controller, which will allow you to select current or speed based, and add the option for torque sensing, and other options. If you upgrade to another controller later, the cycle analyst will already be set up, and you’d just up the current limit.

 

[amberwolf]

Not mentioned but the very best thing about using hte Cycle Analyst is to hook your PAS sensor to *it* instead of the controller, and have actual variable control over the motor with the pedals themselves. There's no need for assist levels with this variable control, for most situations and riders. Don't need a torque sensor to do this, either--just a cadence sensor, which you already have.

Depending on your controller design and how you setup the CA, you can have it vary power by pedal speed, or vary speed by pedal speed.

I use it the latter way on the SB Cruiser trike.


As long as the controller can operate by throttle-only, and you don't have to change the assist level on the screen to get the full system range via throttle, you can even leave the original screen off and just use the CA to display important info about your system (it doens't talk to your controller, so if there is specific info you want from your controller, you'll still need your original display).

 

[offGridDownUnder]

The PAS starts at 8mph versus the wife's 5mph.

Do you mean that the PAS does not start the motor working until you reach 8mph, or that when you start pedaling, the motor will not run slower than 8mph?

 

[gromike]

... the motor will not run slower than 8mph?

I would venture to say that's what he means.

 

[jnelson]

I would venture to say that's what he means.

Yes as soon as you pedal in PAS1 it jumps to 8mph. Pretty much the same with the throttle. I can maybe with careful control vary between 7 and 8 mph. Lowering the max speed just kills off the higher PAS choices. You would think the max speed would bring them all down a level.

 

[jnelson]

As long as the controller can operate by throttle-only, and you don't have to change the assist level on the screen to get the full system range via throttle, you can even leave the original screen off and just use the CA to display important info about your system (it doens't talk to your controller, so if there is specific info you want from your controller, you'll still need your original display).

There are 3 or 5 PAS levels, and the throttle feels like it is a PAS trigger too. There is a parameter to be throttle or pedal, or both.

The assist level is a separate button. Up and down vary PAS, and a middle button turns on the screen. The up-down together accesses 20 parameters, so it seems to interact with the screen.

 

[gromike]

I bought an Adventon Pace 500 for my son, and when he went to car I got the bike. It was like a 2018 bike. I found it unrideable for the same reason. I scrapped the bike because of that, and the cracking around the spoke eyelets of in the rear rim. The motor is on a new rim on a different bike with a KT controller.
A long winded way of saying install a good controller.

 

[jnelson]

Not mentioned but the very best thing about using hte Cycle Analyst is to hook your PAS sensor to *it* instead of the controller, and have actual variable control over the motor with the pedals themselves. Depending on your controller design and how you setup the CA, you can have it vary power by pedal speed, or vary speed by pedal speed.

Having the speed follow a pedal rate sounds ideal. The PAS levels, I suspect should give more range? How can I do that? (Googing "hte Cycle Analyst")

 

[neptronix]

PAS is typically poorly tuned in a number of ways, usually put in there for compliance reasons, or to just tick a box on the features list

A phaserunner/baserunner would get you the tunability you're looking for with PAS or torque sensing. It's also easy to tune relative to advanced FOC controllers.

Cheap FOC usually isn't that great, it's complex to make a good FOC controller, it's not something i'd buy cheap, otherwise it's usually a headache.

 

[amberwolf]

Having the speed follow a pedal rate sounds ideal. The PAS levels, I suspect should give more range? How can I do that? (Googing "hte Cycle Analyst")

Cycle Analyst V3 - Grin Products - Product Info

The Cycle Analyst display is our first flagship product released in 2006 and now in its 3rd generation. While the hardware design may be showing its age, it still has capabilities and functionalities that are unmatched by modern ebike systems with their pretty colour screens. This device also...

ebikes.ca

Cycle Analysts - Ebike Parts - Shop

The <a href="/product-info/grin-products/cycle-analyst-3.html">Cycle Analyst</a> is much more than just an old-looking display and is the central control feature for most of our advanced kits. With some custom throttle wiring you can also use it (via the Stand Alone or High Current models) to...

ebikes.ca

you'd want the CA-SA version

All the "PAS levels" (assist levels) do of the controller you have (and almost every other controller that supports PAS) is give you the ability to have more than just plain old on/off full output. Each level will be setup for a little more speed (or power, or some mix of these) than the next lower one.

Using less power (going slower, etc) uses less battery capacity, so you do get more range, but that's not why the levels are there, really.

You don't normally need levels if you have completely variable output based on pedal speed, because to get more range you just go slower which means you pedal slower.

If you still want levels you can directly setup three presets in the CA, or you can use the +/- digiaux button accessory to setup one of the parameters in the CA to increase or decrease some limit that gives you a larger number of assist levels, more or less.


Remember the CA is a DIY setup thing, so you'll have to wire it up to your system and that may mean changing connectors on it or your system or both. Then you have to completely configure *every* option in *every* menu, to be sure it is set the way you need it to be (not leaving anything at defaults unless that's correct for your setup). So it is a lot of work, but it works very well to do this kind of thing.


On mine, I have a 20mph speed limit set, but no other limits, to comply with local laws as of when the system was built. I had to play around with the PAS cadence vs power / etc settings to get the response I wanted, which was very high output for very little crank movement to get started easily, then after that I can simply slow down my pedalling to slow down the speed of the trike.

I have not setup the backpedal-braking so I use the brake levers for that, but if you want it that is also an option; mine is setup just to stop assisting if I backpedal or stop pedalling. It still coasts just like a regular bike would if I'm not pedalling, there's just no motor power.

 

[amberwolf]

the throttle feels like it is a PAS trigger too.

What specifically do you mean by this?

Do you mean the throttle does not vary the speed, that it just goes full output of whatever that PAS level is, even if you're not pedalling? If so, you would need a different controller that's got a "real" throttle input to use the CA to do this. If you're doing that, you can just get a controller that already has direct PAS input that has variable control.

THe Phaserunner does, also from ebikes.ca, with at least one firmware version...like the CA there's a fair bit of setup involved with getting it running the way you want it to--it's not plug-and-play.

I think VESC also can do PAS input this way, but I haven't used that.

There are others I don't recall the names of, besides the various open-source-firmwares you can install on some KT and LiShui controllers (also a DIY project you'd be learning how to do).

 

[jnelson]

On mine, I have a 20mph speed limit set, but no other limits, to comply with local laws as of when the system was built. I had to play around with the PAS cadence vs power / etc settings to get the response I wanted, which was very high output for very little crank movement to get started easily, then after that I can simply slow down my pedalling to slow down the speed of the trike.

That sounds awesome! Looking into it.

 

[jnelson]

Do you mean the throttle does not vary the speed, that it just goes full output of whatever that PAS level is, even if you're not pedalling?

Yes, this seems to be the case.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

The up-down together accesses 20 parameters

Don't let me talk you out of getting a Cycle Analyst or a Phase/Base Runner controller. That's what I use, and I'm happy to keep those electric bike nerds in the workshop coming up with new cool stuff by giving them more money - it pays off. But...

Perhaps there is some setting in those 20 parameters? I don't know about your free time, tolerance for opaque interface item names, etc.

Particularly, do you have the same system as your wife has? If so, comparing the entries might be rewarding.

 

[stancecoke]

There are others I don't recall the names of, besides the various open-source-firmwares you can install on some KT and LiShui controllers (also a DIY project you'd be learning how to do).

To get a smooth assistance there is no expensive Base/Phaserunner in combination with a cycle analyst necessary. There are several much cheaper alternatives available.
A simple Kunteng system is already mentioned. Many people are completely happy with the simple power levels.
I prefer a system with a torque sensor, as it gives a much more bicycle like ride experience. That's the way, all better drive manufacturers as Bosch, Yamaha, Panasonic, Fazua.... are going.

There are various plug and play systems available, with no need to tinker around with open source firmware

JYTCon:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166931141189
https://www.ebay.com/itm/134133202218
https://www.ebay.com/itm/135171939656

Lishui:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002786321531.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002711701202.html

Bafang:
https://windmeile.com/shop/e-bike-teile/sensoren/pedalsensoren/bafang-pas-sensor-sr-pa211-32-st
https://windmeile.com/shop/e-bike-teile/displays/bafang-dpc-10-display-fuer-bbs-systeme
https://windmeile.com/shop/e-bike-teile/controller/bafang-controller-fuer-nabenmotor-g040-48v-500w

regards
stancecoke

 

[jnelson]

Particularly, do you have the same system as your wife has? If so, comparing the entries might be rewarding.

Thev wifes has a 9 level PAS that instantly solved he's. She has a black&white display, mine is color. It is like it regressed but initially looked more flashy.

We only ride these while in Forida. I'm almost out of time this year. Retiring here in 2027. I will keep taking all this in and plan for next year. This is the right forum to get the right path to enhance my ride.

I am very thankful for all input.

 

[jnelson]

To get a smooth assistance there is no expensive Base/Phaserunner in combination with a cycle analyst necessary. There are several much cheaper alternatives available.
A simple Kunteng system is already mentioned. Many people are completely happy with the simple power levels.
I prefer a system with a torque sensor, as it gives a much more bicycle like ride experience. That's the way, all better drive manufacturers as Bosch, Yamaha, Panasonic, Fazua.... are going.

There are various plug and play systems available, with no need to tinker around with open source firmware

JYTCon:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166931141189
https://www.ebay.com/itm/134133202218
https://www.ebay.com/itm/135171939656

Lishui:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002786321531.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002711701202.html

Bafang:
https://windmeile.com/shop/e-bike-teile/sensoren/pedalsensoren/bafang-pas-sensor-sr-pa211-32-st
https://windmeile.com/shop/e-bike-teile/displays/bafang-dpc-10-display-fuer-bbs-systeme
https://windmeile.com/shop/e-bike-teile/controller/bafang-controller-fuer-nabenmotor-g040-48v-500w

regards
stancecoke

Thank you!

 

[docw009]

I used to have this problem with inexpensive ebikes and also my own conversions, The new bike added to my collection would be too fast to ride with my wife. .

I found that KT controllers with the appropiate display could easily be set for a smooth 1:2 reduction in power, plus their current sensing algorithn gave a good pedal response. I've converted two commercial ebikes to KT controllers, and I only use them for new projects, Should cost $80-100 purchased from China, 20-30% more on amazon, Tariffs may change it in future.

S866 display? I had one. Didn't like it, You can try adjusting the P11 setting lower.

 

[E-HP]

I have a controller with an S866 display sitting in my junk box, I use a KT controller/display instead. With the right display, you can easily adjust the power smoothly to get the PAS speeds you want. It will probably cost $80-100, maybe more after tariffs for a display/controller combo.

This is the best option in my opinion. The Cycle Analyst route is nice if the OP anticipates future upgrades, but my wife would notice right away if I upgraded something of mine and not hers lol, so I’m sure Heather would notice as well. With the KT, he can always say, but you have “9 levels and I only have 5” (even if he sneaks in a small bump of extra power). If she gets the need for speed in the future, just break out the wallet.

 

[jnelson]

but you have “9 levels and I only have 5”

 

[jnelson]

Thanks all! Unfortunately I am back in Michigan; the bike is in Florida. I have 11 months or so to get my upgrade plan.

I seem to be leaning towards FLIPSKY 75100 Pro V2.0

All the suggestions and thoughts have been great. Been also watching YouTube reviews and builds.

I've yet to find, but I bet there might be good harness kits that simplify the interconnect wiring. Soldering, crimping, ...

Seems like there could have been a DIY wiring standard emerge, but it looks like a lot of the connections vary by brands. Lots of time to look though.

At least I know the controller won't break the bank to fix what I have.

 

[neptronix]

Hey.. i bought one of those models..

..doesn't work out of the box, flaky programming software, connectors not crimped properly, some wires just fell out of the connectors as i was handling it.

Lots of complaints on premature failure on their VESC models..

Can't recommend them, think about a spintend or something higher quality than that.

 

[E-HP]

Thanks all! Unfortunately I am back in Michigan; the bike is in Florida. I have 11 months or so to get my upgrade plan.

I seem to be leaning towards FLIPSKY 75100 Pro V2.0

All the suggestions and thoughts have been great. Been also watching YouTube reviews and builds.

I've yet to find, but I bet there might be good harness kits that simplify the interconnect wiring. Soldering, crimping, ...

Seems like there could have been a DIY wiring standard emerge, but it looks like a lot of the connections vary by brands. Lots of time to look though.

At least I know the controller won't break the bank to fix what I have.

I have a non pro older model in my parts box. I added connectors to match my bike, and was going to use my cycle analyst to provide the throttle signal and PAS. The connectors were simple to add/change. I never got it working, but found out later I needed to up the current used for the auto learning. I may test it again soon, since I’m doing work on my bike, and the connectors are set up to just do a direct swap without any wiring changes.
Are you going to use PAS? I imagine PAS support must be better since i tinkered with it.

 

[neptronix]

Interesting, let me know if you ever got yours running. Mine's busy collecting dust