Need advise for the Cyclone 4.8 KW coaxial Motor...

[papagino]

Hi guys, this is my current enduro frame ebike:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?mode=view&id=259297
Currently using a Magic Pie 5 hub motor with a 15S10P Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA cells with smart bluetooth controller charged at 62V max. I have a motorcycle 17" wheel in the front with motocross tire and the Magic Pie 5 is mounted on a 20in BMX rim with a 16" motocross tire. Max speed with this setup is around 47km/h.

I like to ride in the forest trails around here using Cruise control and pedaling along lightly with the motor. My range now is about 60 to 80Km.

But lately, I want more power when I need it (Specially, if I am being chased by a bear) LOL.
I found this kit that is compatible with my enduro frame where I can get the Cyclone Motor with just the swingarm from http://www.cyclone-tw.com/Coaxial.html:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?mode=view&id=259298

I am planning of using this kit with probably a 11-50T cassette mounted on a new 17" moto rim fitted with a Shimano Hub and matching trail tires for front and back wheels.

The controller that comes with this kit doesn't have a display, instead you need to connect to it via bluetooth to a smart phone and the speed is calculated using the Hall Sensor in the motor. This is not good as I will be using a 11 Speed cassette in the back wheel...

I was thinking of not using the stock controller and using this one instead that comes with a 750C display from AliExpress:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32869786514.html
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?mode=view&id=259299
I would probably turn down the Max Amps in the controller to prolong the life of the motor, but it would surely give more torque then my current setup...

I am currently communication with the seller to see if it has all the features that I want, ex:
- Does the controller have a speed sensor wire to measure the wheel speed with a sensor on the wheel? (Need this to have accurate speed reading because my e-bike is using a Cyclone Mid Drive Motor and have 9 speed cassette and speed calculated via motor hall sensor would be invalid.)
- Can the controller support a 3 speed limit switch (rocker switch on handlebar).
- Does the controller also support cruise control, either via a button or auto-cruise if throttle is maintain at a position for a number of seconds.

My question is do you think this kit would be a good match with this controller?
Did anyone here have this setup (Enduro Frame with Cyclone Coaxial Mid Drive inside the SwingArm?
Do you think this sinewave controller would be compatible with the Cyclone Coaxial Mid Drive?

Any thoughts, recommendations appreciated.

Cheers
Dan

 

[Tommm]

My dude, who cares about the shiit display or bt apps. Buy a $3 phone mount and you can see the gps speed on your phone. What brand is that controller? The coaxial motor can handle about 2.4kw cont and 7kw peak on 72v. Yes it has a 3 speed switch but why would you need it? Same with cruise control, yes it has it, even automatic cruise control. But you need brake switches to turn it off or a throttle pull.

 

[Grantmac]

You can't pedal with the coaxle, the crank speed is waaaaaay to fast.

Look at the Lightning Rods LHD big block if you want a motor that can actually be pedaled with on that frame.

 

[papagino]

Thanks Tommm for your reply, the reason for the display is to be more stealth as I sometime ride on the city bike paths that have 32km/h and 500W restrictions here in Canada.

I currently have a smart phone dedicated for my bike as you can see here:


This console was made using my 3D printer... but it is not to stealthy as you can see on the pics.

The controller is the one used on the RisunMotor Enduro FC-1 FRAME ebike.
It is a programmable sine-wave motor controller...

I am not the kind of guy of zip past everyone on the paths, I am 53 y old, not a teenager who doesn't care about everyone on the paths.

I like to keep track on the mileage I do in the summer and when ridding on the bike paths, I use cruise control while pedaling so I can really extend my range.
Hope you understand better now what I am trying to accomplish.

Cheers for your feedback...

 

[Tommm]

Thanks Tommm for your reply, the reason for the display is to be more stealth as I sometime ride on the city bike paths that have 32km/h and 500W restrictions here in Canada.

I currently have a smart phone dedicated for my bike as you can see here:
Center Console.jpg

This console was made using my 3D printer... but it is not to stealthy as you can see on the pics.

The controller is the one used on the RisunMotor Enduro FC-1 FRAME ebike.
It is a programmable sine-wave motor controller...

I am not the kind of guy of zip past everyone on the paths, I am 53 y old, not a teenager who doesn't care about everyone on the paths.

I like to keep track on the mileage I do in the summer and when ridding on the bike paths, I use cruise control while pedaling so I can really extend my range.
Hope you understand better now what I am trying to accomplish.

Cheers for your feedback...

My friend, that phone in this mount would be the same size as a display for the controller. And you could forgo the controller display and use just the phone.

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32925803607.html

Regular cyclists/bike couriers have the phone mounted on the handlebar too. You are way overthinking it. Less is more when it comes to stealth and ebikes.

 

[papagino]

Thanks Grantmac, I am using 46T front with 11-32T cassette in the rear and can comfortably pedal at 40km/h in my current setup.
I was thinking on using a 46T instead of the stock 32T sprocket on the Cyclone and tuning down the Amps so not to burn the motor.
This would allow me to Pedal at 32Km/h comfortably on the city bike path using the cruise control set at that speed. Then, if I want more torque, I just need to switch to the 50T gear on the back cassette.

Do you think that would work?
Thanks

 

[Tommm]

Thanks Grantmac, I am using 46T front with 11-32T cassette in the rear and can comfortably pedal at 40km/h in my current setup.
I was thinking on using a 46T instead of the stock 32T sprocket on the Cyclone and tuning down the Amps so not to burn the motor.
This would allow me to Pedal at 32Km/h comfortably on the city bike path using the cruise control set at that speed. Then, if I want more torque, I just need to switch to the 50T gear on the back cassette.

Do you think that would work?
Thanks

No, you can forget pedaling as it is. 46t will cook the motor in 2-3 minutes even at 1-1.5kw. You can not run anything bigger than 32t on this motor, and even that paired with 32 to 50t on the rear. The pedal is only there for looks. Or you can turn the motor off for 2 minutes and do a quick workout.

 

[papagino]

Thanks Grantmac, I am using 46T front with 11-32T cassette in the rear and can comfortably pedal at 40km/h in my current setup.
I was thinking on using a 46T instead of the stock 32T sprocket on the Cyclone and tuning down the Amps so not to burn the motor.
This would allow me to Pedal at 32Km/h comfortably on the city bike path using the cruise control set at that speed. Then, if I want more torque, I just need to switch to the 50T gear on the back cassette.

Do you think that would work?
Thanks

No, you can forget pedaling as it is. 46t will cook the motor in 2-3 minutes even at 1-1.5kw. You can not run anything bigger than 32t on this motor, and even that paired with 32 to 50t on the rear. The pedal is only there for looks. Or you can turn the motor off for 2 minutes and do a quick workout.

Well, I guess your right then... funny Paco from Cyclone website is selling larger freewheels... (30T to 90T I believe)???
I guess trying to pedal a 32km/h with 32T front and 50T in the back would be rather.... Funny LOL :lol:
What would be the smallest gear that I could use on the 11-50T rear freewheel with this setup (32T on Cyclone) without cooking the motor? Would 38T on the rear cassette be to much for this motor? Paco said that it will do 75km/h at 60V with 32T front and 50T back... do you believe this?

I just notice that he is also selling a kit with this motor that uses Chainwheel: 42/32/22T, so 42T might be ok then. I can always to buy 42T chainwheel to try...

 

[Tommm]

Well, I guess your right then... funny Paco from Cyclone website is selling larger freewheels... (30T to 90T I believe)???
I guess trying to pedal a 32km/h with 32T front and 50T in the back would be rather.... Funny LOL :lol:
What would be the smallest gear that I could use on the 11-50T rear freewheel with this setup (32T on Cyclone) without cooking the motor? Would 38T on the rear cassette be to much for this motor? Paco said that it will do 75km/h at 60V with 32T front and 50T back... do you believe this?

I just notice that he is also selling a kit with this motor that uses Chainwheel: 42/32/22T, so 42T might be ok then. I can always to buy 42T chainwheel to try...

I would go with a 30t front so more gears are usable from the back, but it is not a huge difference. with 30t front and 30t rear you can do some serious damage. I've gotten up to 58mph(94kph) before with this motor on 72v and it was on the 24t rear but I wasn't close to spinning it out. So you will likely never use it or the rear 30t. Still is too tall even for road riding, 36-42-46 or 36-42-50t, these will be your bread and butter. Out of these I use the 50t on off road (does a bit over 30mph), 36t for long road straights, 42 in the city if I want to pop it in a gear and leave it there.

You can play with bikecalc, check out speed at cadence.
https://www.bikecalc.com/speed_at_cadence
Motor cadence is 750 rpm at 72v. ~ 500 at 52v, and that is before field weakening(high speed mode 3 speed switch, which adds another ~12%).

 

[Grantmac]

If you want to pedal meaningfully then this isn't the drive for you.

There are ways to do what you want with a mid-drive, likely using your frame. Just not with the coaxle.
Personally I'd go left hand drive with the cyclone 4.8kw motor minus gearbox with a ~10:1 ratio using the left side bottom bracket spindle to mount the primary drive sprocket.

Or go super simple with the Lightning Rods swingarm mounted big block.

 

[papagino]

Well, I guess your right then... funny Paco from Cyclone website is selling larger freewheels... (30T to 90T I believe)???
I guess trying to pedal a 32km/h with 32T front and 50T in the back would be rather.... Funny LOL :lol:
What would be the smallest gear that I could use on the 11-50T rear freewheel with this setup (32T on Cyclone) without cooking the motor? Would 38T on the rear cassette be to much for this motor? Paco said that it will do 75km/h at 60V with 32T front and 50T back... do you believe this?

I just notice that he is also selling a kit with this motor that uses Chainwheel: 42/32/22T, so 42T might be ok then. I can always to buy 42T chainwheel to try...

I would go with a 30t front so more gears are usable from the back, but it is not a huge difference. with 30t front and 30t rear you can do some serious damage. I've gotten up to 58mph(94kph) before with this motor on 72v and it was on the 24t rear but I wasn't close to spinning it out. So you will likely never use it or the rear 30t. Still is too tall even for road riding, 36-42-46 or 36-42-50t, these will be your bread and butter. Out of these I use the 50t on off road (does a bit over 30mph), 36t for long road straights, 42 in the city if I want to pop it in a gear and leave it there.

You can play with bikecalc, check out speed at cadence.
https://www.bikecalc.com/speed_at_cadence
Motor cadence is 750 rpm at 72v. ~ 500 at 52v, and that is before field weakening(high speed mode 3 speed switch, which adds another ~12%).

Thank you Tommm for your input.
I will probably stick with the stock 32T chainwheel and get a 42T just to try out (pretty cheap).
I am not building this for speed, 65-70 km/h is ample for me, but would still like to be able to pedal with the motor at 32km/h.
I will probably get a 10 - 11 Speed Freewheel 11- 52T on the rear, knowing that I will probably only ever use the first 3 gears. The smaller gear will be for pedaling only.

Oh, do you know what would be the RPM of the Cyclone at 60V at the chainwheel?

Are you aware of anyone using a sinewave controller with this motor, other then the Phaserunner sold at Luna Cycle?
What about a Sobvoton or a Kelly controller or others?
I would really like to have a controller with LCD display that support cruise control, 3 speed switch and a option to use a speed sensor wire to measure the wheel speed with a sensor on the wheel.

Thank you again
Cheers
Dan

 

[Tommm]

Well, I guess your right then... funny Paco from Cyclone website is selling larger freewheels... (30T to 90T I believe)???
I guess trying to pedal a 32km/h with 32T front and 50T in the back would be rather.... Funny LOL :lol:
What would be the smallest gear that I could use on the 11-50T rear freewheel with this setup (32T on Cyclone) without cooking the motor? Would 38T on the rear cassette be to much for this motor? Paco said that it will do 75km/h at 60V with 32T front and 50T back... do you believe this?

I just notice that he is also selling a kit with this motor that uses Chainwheel: 42/32/22T, so 42T might be ok then. I can always to buy 42T chainwheel to try...

I would go with a 30t front so more gears are usable from the back, but it is not a huge difference. with 30t front and 30t rear you can do some serious damage. I've gotten up to 58mph(94kph) before with this motor on 72v and it was on the 24t rear but I wasn't close to spinning it out. So you will likely never use it or the rear 30t. Still is too tall even for road riding, 36-42-46 or 36-42-50t, these will be your bread and butter. Out of these I use the 50t on off road (does a bit over 30mph), 36t for long road straights, 42 in the city if I want to pop it in a gear and leave it there.

You can play with bikecalc, check out speed at cadence.
https://www.bikecalc.com/speed_at_cadence
Motor cadence is 750 rpm at 72v. ~ 500 at 52v, and that is before field weakening(high speed mode 3 speed switch, which adds another ~12%).

Thank you Tommm for your input.
I will probably stick with the stock 32T chainwheel and get a 42T just to try out (pretty cheap).
I am not building this for speed, 65-70 km/h is ample for me, but would still like to be able to pedal with the motor at 32km/h.
I will probably get a 10 - 11 Speed Freewheel 11- 52T on the rear, knowing that I will probably only ever use the first 3 gears. The smaller gear will be for pedaling only.

Oh, do you know what would be the RPM of the Cyclone at 60V at the chainwheel?

Are you aware of anyone using a sinewave controller with this motor, other then the Phaserunner sold at Luna Cycle?
What about a Sobvoton or a Kelly controller or others?
I would really like to have a controller with LCD display that support cruise control, 3 speed switch and a option to use a speed sensor wire to measure the wheel speed with a sensor on the wheel.

Thank you again
Cheers
Dan

Motor kv is 62.5, internal gearbox is 6:1.
So you are looking at 62.5*60v/6.
The cyclone doesn't play nice on some controllers, I would only buy an additional controller if you have a plan B if it doesn't work. Kellys are hit or miss depending on model. The kellys and sabvotons lack pas too, and for good reason. At 60A+, at human cadences you are either lugging the motor because of a tall gearing, or ripping the chain because of a stupidly high reduction combined with a high amperage controller.
You know the motor doesn't have a pas sensor? Do you want to pedal while feathering throttle? The efficiency is terrible at 10-15% of the max rpm, you won't increase range by pedaling along at all.

I have an internal temp sensor installed with a display on the handlebar. I was doing around 30kph on a bumpy dirt road, I dropped some gears and started pedaling along. After 2 minutes in spring weather the temp crept up from 50 to 80C. Just 2 more minutes and I can buy a motor. It is really that bad of an idea. You can pedal, but the motor has to be off. Or have a temp sensor and have your eyes glued to it. I can link you mine if you want.

I would get a 9 speed 11-46 or 11-50 from aliexpress. The lesser speed chains are thicker and better for ebike use. I have 2000km in a kmc x93 $15 chain now, it is not even the stronger ebike kmc e9 9 speed chain! Also look into a steel freehub body. Also a strong hub, a ratchet sytle hub instead of a pawl one. I destroyed a pawl hub already, it was slipping from day one.

I'm not big into controller displays, so I don't know of any high power controllers that show wheel speed. The 3 speed switch can be wired up to any 3 position switch you can find on ebay. I used fairly long knobbed ones and I hid them under the seat, along with the power switch. I don't have anything that relates to the ebike on the handlebar, only a phone, which can show the controller's status with the app, gps speed, a map, or a combination of those with split screen. Less is more.

 

[papagino]

Well, I guess your right then... funny Paco from Cyclone website is selling larger freewheels... (30T to 90T I believe)???
I guess trying to pedal a 32km/h with 32T front and 50T in the back would be rather.... Funny LOL :lol:
What would be the smallest gear that I could use on the 11-50T rear freewheel with this setup (32T on Cyclone) without cooking the motor? Would 38T on the rear cassette be to much for this motor? Paco said that it will do 75km/h at 60V with 32T front and 50T back... do you believe this?

I just notice that he is also selling a kit with this motor that uses Chainwheel: 42/32/22T, so 42T might be ok then. I can always to buy 42T chainwheel to try...

I would go with a 30t front so more gears are usable from the back, but it is not a huge difference. with 30t front and 30t rear you can do some serious damage. I've gotten up to 58mph(94kph) before with this motor on 72v and it was on the 24t rear but I wasn't close to spinning it out. So you will likely never use it or the rear 30t. Still is too tall even for road riding, 36-42-46 or 36-42-50t, these will be your bread and butter. Out of these I use the 50t on off road (does a bit over 30mph), 36t for long road straights, 42 in the city if I want to pop it in a gear and leave it there.

You can play with bikecalc, check out speed at cadence.
https://www.bikecalc.com/speed_at_cadence
Motor cadence is 750 rpm at 72v. ~ 500 at 52v, and that is before field weakening(high speed mode 3 speed switch, which adds another ~12%).

Thank you Tommm for your input.
I will probably stick with the stock 32T chainwheel and get a 42T just to try out (pretty cheap).
I am not building this for speed, 65-70 km/h is ample for me, but would still like to be able to pedal with the motor at 32km/h.
I will probably get a 10 - 11 Speed Freewheel 11- 52T on the rear, knowing that I will probably only ever use the first 3 gears. The smaller gear will be for pedaling only.

Oh, do you know what would be the RPM of the Cyclone at 60V at the chainwheel?

Are you aware of anyone using a sinewave controller with this motor, other then the Phaserunner sold at Luna Cycle?
What about a Sobvoton or a Kelly controller or others?
I would really like to have a controller with LCD display that support cruise control, 3 speed switch and a option to use a speed sensor wire to measure the wheel speed with a sensor on the wheel.

Thank you again
Cheers
Dan

Motor kv is 62.5, internal gearbox is 6:1.
So you are looking at 62.5*60v/6.
The cyclone doesn't play nice on some controllers, I would only buy an additional controller if you have a plan B if it doesn't work. Kellys are hit or miss depending on model. The kellys and sabvotons lack pas too, and for good reason. At 60A+, at human cadences you are either lugging the motor because of a tall gearing, or ripping the chain because of a stupidly high reduction combined with a high amperage controller.
You know the motor doesn't have a pas sensor? Do you want to pedal while feathering throttle? The efficiency is terrible at 10-15% of the max rpm, you won't increase range by pedaling along at all.

I have an internal temp sensor installed with a display on the handlebar. I was doing around 30kph on a bumpy dirt road, I dropped some gears and started pedaling along. After 2 minutes in spring weather the temp crept up from 50 to 80C. Just 2 more minutes and I can buy a motor. It is really that bad of an idea. You can pedal, but the motor has to be off. Or have a temp sensor and have your eyes glued to it. I can link you mine if you want.

I would get a 9 speed 11-46 or 11-50 from aliexpress. The lesser speed chains are thicker and better for ebike use. I have 2000km in a kmc x93 $15 chain now, it is not even the stronger ebike kmc e9 9 speed chain! Also look into a steel freehub body. Also a strong hub, a ratchet sytle hub instead of a pawl one. I destroyed a pawl hub already, it was slipping from day one.

After reading your comments and checking the speed_at_cadence site, I can conclude the a Cyclone Coaxial is not a good solution for me as I want to be able to pedal. My wheels size are pretty small, 17in motorcycle rim with trail tire coming soon, so if I want to be able to pedal as I am doing now, I think a better option would be to have a drive motor on the Left side with a large sprocket on the rear wheel like the Lightning Rods swingarm mounted big block as Grantmac mentioned above or maybe a Cyclone like the one in the photo:


That way, the bike would be able to Freeride and I could use to motor as needed.

My first idea was to get a Bafang BBSHD and using external controller, this is probably a better option also. I want my bike to be able to Freewheel in case something happen to my battery or motor, as of now, it is impossible to pedal the bike without the motor helping using the Magic Pie 5, it's like a GIANT DYNAMO...

Any recommendations on this?
Bafang vs cyclone on left side vs Lightning Rods swingarm mounted big block...

Cheers
Dan

 

[Tommm]

I want my bike to be able to Freewheel in case something happen to my battery or motor, as of now, it is impossible to pedal the bike without the motor helping using the Magic Pie 5, it's like a GIANT DYNAMO...

Any recommendations on this?
Bafang vs cyclone on left side vs Lightning Rods swingarm mounted big block...

Cheers
Dan

The coaxial motor can freewheel perfectly, as good as any mid motor. I am not sure why you want to pedal or have a 1000-1500w motor on this behemoth of a frame. As I wrote if the bafang had more power it would rip the chain becaue power=rpm*torque. The coaxial fixes this with upping the rpm instead of the torque. There is no free lunch.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Papagino,

I would not even bother with that smaller cyclone motor you show picture/spec's of , Instead with such a bike that you have I would get the 3000 watt cyclone. Here is the one I now have ...https://www.gngebike.com/gng-2019-3000w

I only have 3 rides on it so far so I am not doing a review just yet , however I have done 4 e-bike conversions now , A Mac motor that I would run at up to 1200 watts , a small motor that I would run at 500-600 watts, and the first half of this year a DD rear hub motor that I would push up to 1500-1700 watts through and ... I am finally Happy with a motor/conversion with this newer cyclone .
To be fair to the other conversions I have been happy with all of them , except for the fact none of the others would go up long or steep hills. This 3k motor I now have on the 3rd ride I took it up a 7 mile mountain with average grade of over
7 % without stopping with a altitude gain of 2,000 feet and the motor and controller were barely warm .
So far I have only run it at up to 16s pack and 30-35 amp max peak, ,the 14 s pack feels just OK , the 16s pack better and am now looking at doing 18s or 20s in the future . I sure need that more power with the steep and long mountains climbs around where I live.

It is called a big block, Lighting Rod's makes a big block kit as well . ( He did not get back to me when I e-mailed him when I was finally ready to buy a mid-drive so I bought from GNG )
Mike ( Lightning Rod's ) is probably a little better in quality in regards to mounting hardware / chainring bolts and for sure a better controller , along with the option of a Cycle Analyst as well, all with increased costs compared to GNG of course .

IMHO forget about the small/mid block versions and just get the Big Block. A.K.A. 3k one.

 

[Grantmac]

The LR BB is literally twice the size of the 3kw cyclone.

 

[papagino]

Papagino,

I would not even bother with that smaller cyclone motor you show picture/spec's of , Instead with such a bike that you have I would get the 3000 watt cyclone. Here is the one I now have ...https://www.gngebike.com/gng-2019-3000w

I only have 3 rides on it so far so I am not doing a review just yet , however I have done 4 e-bike conversions now , A Mac motor that I would run at up to 1200 watts , a small motor that I would run at 500-600 watts, and the first half of this year a DD rear hub motor that I would push up to 1500-1700 watts through and ... I am finally Happy with a motor/conversion with this newer cyclone .
To be fair to the other conversions I have been happy with all of them , except for the fact none of the others would go up long or steep hills. This 3k motor I now have on the 3rd ride I took it up a 7 mile mountain with average grade of over
7 % without stopping with a altitude gain of 2,000 feet and the motor and controller were barely warm .
So far I have only run it at up to 16s pack and 30-35 amp max peak, ,the 14 s pack feels just OK , the 16s pack better and am now looking at doing 18s or 20s in the future . I sure need that more power with the steep and long mountains climbs around where I live.

It is called a big block, Lighting Rod's makes a big block kit as well . ( He did not get back to me when I e-mailed him when I was finally ready to buy a mid-drive so I bought from GNG )
Mike ( Lightning Rod's ) is probably a little better in quality in regards to mounting hardware / chainring bolts and for sure a better controller , along with the option of a Cycle Analyst as well, all with increased costs compared to GNG of course .

IMHO forget about the small/mid block versions and just get the Big Block. A.K.A. 3k one.

The one from GNGELECTRIC would not fit my frame and they ship by sea mail(2-3 months) to USA.Canada.
Bottom bracket type mounts with plates on the side can't fit my frame, unless it is attached going toward the back of the frame, and not toward the front, because of the shape of the frame and also the kickstand. Bafang and big block Lighting Rod's may fit.

Need to sketch my frame and those motors in 3D CAD to see how it would fit...

 

[Tommm]

I am not sure why you are looking to complicate your build when you already found the solution. The coaxial motor is the only thing that makes sense in power, stealth and mounting. Anything else will have even more compromises and drawbacks. Electric motors are simple things, you can buy them from a different vendor, but they will still have the same pros and cons in each configuration.

You have 3 options:
- Get the coaxial motor with a perfect mount and amount of power. You will pedal only a little, clown pedaling is fine(doing it just for looks to avoid suspicion), freewheeling is fine, pedaling home in case of drained battery is fine, and pedaling a bit to help along is fine.
Stress on your chain will be 0.8x-1x of what it was designed for, depending on controller. Your chains and cogs will last 2000km+ with disciplined lubing.

- Get some other brand high powered(3000w+) mid drive, with a custom, very unstealthy mount. If you were worried about your handlebar being stealth, why would you entertain the thought of a massive motor mount further hanging down from your already big frame? A cop can see that from far, he can't see the gadgets on your handle.
If you gear it down to pedaling range you will be operating the chain at over 2x the torque it is designed for, before you even touch the pedal, which would increase it to over 2.5x. You will be replacing chains and cogs every ~500-1000km, you will be in mid drive hell and wishing you stayed with your hub. Also, the pedal power you can help the motor with at above 32kph is insignificant.

- Get a low powered mid drive (below 2000w) you will still have an eyesore big assembly, making your bike look like a motorbike, but it will be lacking the power to move such a big frame. It will be slower and have more trouble with hills than the same motor on lighter frames.
Your chains and cogs will last about 1500km if you help along, making the stress 1.5x of the designed amount. This option is worse than having a hub motor for this frame, because a hub can do all that, but you are giving up power, stealth and reliability.

There really is just one logical solution and with the gearing configuration we talked about here, it would be set up perfectly. Efficiency at low speeds and pedaling will be marginally, about 10-15% better than mine because your are rocking 60v instead of 72v, and I discovered a broken phase strand(from having pas installed) which reduces efficiency.

 

[ScooterMan101]

I was wondering about all those Stealth Bomber Clone Frames . When looking at them and any regular F.S. bike frame , I have have been thinking for a few now that a whole new custom swing arm needs to be made .
I like the Idea of left hand drive with a mid drive motor when having the higher wattage motors and for that a new swingarm needs to be made.

Tommm has a good point about buying something already made. are you not going with it because of price ?
What is the price of that motor / swingarm kit shipped to your door ?

For me finding a frame that would work better with the cyclone/LR type of motors is a challenge . And I am quite disappointed that no one has yet made one.
As well as a frame that is lower , longer , and much more slack than all the E-Bike Specific frames that are currently available to buy.

My AM bike that I mounted the GNG kit to looks to have a slacker head angle than your E-Bike frame , during my last ride going down hill at 30 mph I was wanting it to have an even slacker head angle.
E-Bike Specific frames really need a 2nd generation design change !

Look at all the big brand name Down Hill bikes that are being made for the last few years now. Even many of the All Mountain and Enduro frames as well, look at them and you see much slacker head angles , longer and lower . This is what needs to be done with the next generation E-Bike Specific Frames .
As well as frames that are made to accept all the Cyclone/LR type of motors , both BB mounted to use right hand drive , and longer swing arms for left hand drive.
I got my GNG much faster , just over a week from time of order to arrival at my door , but perhaps I bought just when they had a shipment ready to go. They are pretty busy with their new X1 Pro .

The one from GNGELECTRIC would not fit my frame and they ship by sea mail(2-3 months) to USA.Canada.
Bottom bracket type mounts with plates on the side can't fit my frame, unless it is attached going toward the back of the frame, and not toward the front, because of the shape of the frame and also the kickstand. Bafang and big block Lighting Rod's may fit.

Need to sketch my frame and those motors in 3D CAD to see how it would fit...

 

[Tommm]

What is the price of that motor / swingarm kit shipped to your door ?

Motor price is $400 shipped ems. Swingarm not sure, might be $200.

 

[John in CR]

What are you going to do when a bear is chasing you and you suffer a pedal line chain related failure? If you're going mid-drive and need dependability, then you need to separate the motor drive and the pedal line. If you absolutely need variable gearing, then simply give up the ability roll backward and go with retro-direct giving you a 2 speed with a change in motor direction accomplished easily with a switch on almost all aftermarket controllers.

 

[Grantmac]

If reliability is critical then anything sending power through a bicycle chain, derailleur or freewheel isn't going to cut it beyond moderate power levels.

Out of curiosity, how full is that battery compartment and how are your fabrication skills?

 

[papagino]

If reliability is critical then anything sending power through a bicycle chain, derailleur or freewheel isn't going to cut it beyond moderate power levels.

Out of curiosity, how full is that battery compartment and how are your fabrication skills?

The battery compartment is full, 150 Panasonic/Sanyo GA cells (15S10P) using VRUZEND brick sandwich between two lexan sheet.
I have a background in mechanical engineering tech having worked in the High tech industry for a long time. I can do 3D design, Electronic Tech, own a 3D Printer and is an inventor, so I can make my custom design parts if needed. Here's a pic of the inside of the battery compartment:


The Ebike has a remote keyfob with alarm, Smart BMS with Bluetooth, cruise control, 10 Amp 5V DC to DC converter to supply cell phone, lights, USB to charge my 2 Gopros, hidden switch to limit speed...

 

[papagino]

... as a side note, I like to ride in the forest for 2 to 4 hours runtime most of the time, with an average 60 - 80km in distance.
Again, speed and torque is not a major priority, I just want to cruise along on a very comfortable bike with a geometry designed for my body shape and that I can pedal comfortably at 32km/h if ridding on bike path using the cruise control.

I am starting to think that a Bafang BBSHD with external controller that I can tune to extend my range by lowering the battery current, or something like the Lighting Rod's block kit with custom design bracket to be mounted on top of the swingarm instead of below the swingarm as I have suggested on their Facebook page on this pic:

His bike is also using 17" moto rim and you have room for top mount motor as shown on the pic above.

I am currently waiting for a 17" 36H motorbike Rim from Aliexpress to build the rear wheel... Need to decide what I will be using it with... and no, money isn't a deal breaker for me, just want to have a bike that I can enjoy...

 

[ScooterMan101]

See how the rear shock in the above post is almost vertical . many bicycles have shocks that are near horizontal .

Do you think you can design a swingarm ( that would bolt up to the em3ev.com EEB frame ? ...

With the / a big block motor ( lightingrods/GNG 3000w / Cyclone 3000w ) in front of and below the shock .

Move the lower part of the rear shock backwards and up with brackets coming up from the swingarm , with the shaft/cog on the motor located just outside the left side bracket . And make a small heat shield for the shock to route the heat from the motor around the shock, a coil over shock will be necessary a coil shock a good thing anyway air shocks are for lowering weight , a half pound is not so important on a high power e-bike.

Increase the wheelbase a little, and since those e-bike frames do not have a slack enough head angle , make the shock bracket so it slackens the head angle about 1.5-2.5 degrees .