new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[Phife]

I think that I found the cause of the flex. The PFBB adapter was broken.

I'll install a solid metal adapter in that bike and leave it in standby, hopefully one day I'll put on it a Tangent drive. Or maybe I'll sell the bike here on the cheap for an ES member who want to pursue that project,

Mean the time, I'll be using the kit with an old trials bike. So far single speed 13t-32 front 44-18 rear, as that was what I had at hand.

I'll post here how it behaves with (or without) a 3 speed switch. If I don't like it. I'll try with a 2x1 speed (Cyclone triple chainring, or similar heavy duty from Sick Bike P)

I took it for a short spin and I'm pretty exited about it. Of course it jerky, but it is also a trails bike. So it mus have some place to use it with lots of fun.

I'm looking forward to see how far I can go tuning a Cyclone 3000 as single speed.

Im using the same BB adapter on my bike. I hope it lasts.

Were you able to find a solid metal adapter for the PFBB? I could only find the Tripeak.

 

[juanfeli]

For 68 or 73 mm. http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/mobile/us/en/fsa-pf30-threaded-adapter-b3167-/rp-prod129936

 

[robocam]

Unfortunately, I don't think my bike is the culprit. One of the bolts on the Cyclone are bent. I've attached a photo. Even with the washers, the bolt bent, AND the aluminum square is deformed. See how the washers smashed the aluminum block while the bolt at the bottom is no longer parallel with the bolt at the top? I'm going to need a whole new mounting kit.

If you change to a single speed, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a mid drive?

I think that I found the cause of the flex. The PFBB adapter was broken.

I'll install a solid metal adapter in that bike and leave it in standby, hopefully one day I'll put on it a Tangent drive. Or maybe I'll sell the bike here on the cheap for an ES member who want to pursue that project,

Mean the time, I'll be using the kit with an old trials bike. So far single speed 13t-32 front 44-18 rear, as that was what I had at hand.

I'll post here how it behaves with (or without) a 3 speed switch. If I don't like it. I'll try with a 2x1 speed (Cyclone triple chainring, or similar heavy duty from Sick Bike P)

I took it for a short spin and I'm pretty exited about it. Of course it jerky, but it is also a trails bike. So it mus have some place to use it with lots of fun.

I'm looking forward to see how far I can go tuning a Cyclone 3000 as single speed.

 

[robocam]

This is why I'm considering splitting my 20Ah 52V pack into two 52V 10Ah packs and wiring them in series (or some other configuration using the 112 cells in my pack - maybe 72V?) and running it at maybe 30 amps.

I just tried to fit a 44-48-32 to my bike, but the 48 hits the chainstay. A 44-44-32 works though.

I think a hardtail will greatly reduce the flexing in my case. On my bike,I can see that it is caused by the fact that there is a pivot there. If that pivot were gone, the chainstay would go straight to the bottom bracket. It would handle compression much better than my current frame, which does not have a straight chainstay on the right (it is curved). I've attached a photo below to show you what I mean. When I apply the brake and throttle, it actually makes that curve bend. It's scary!

The 44/32 crank is IMHO a BIG mistake. These are not muscle cars where you can boost 300 ft/lbs of torque and the overbuilt transmission can handle it. We are riding bicycles here, and more torque = bad news. With a 44/32T the amount of force running through the chain is INSANE and your drivetrain won't last very long. Of course your frame flexes... I am surprised it didn't snap. Running the 32T chainring with the 11T cog for any period of time with more than 250-300 watts your chain, cassette and chainring lifespan will be measured in minutes. Do your wallet, your bike, and yourself a favor and order the 44-48-32T chainring. I only run the 32T on my triple chainring with either the 36T, 32T or 28T cogs; I also aligned the front derailleur so my chain will rub the derailleur cage if I go beyond gear #4. I do use the 32T when I am pedaling the bike myself (no motor) or towing something with motor uphill at slow speed. (8-10 mph)

Installing this on a hardtail won't solve your problem. I have a 26" hardtail and it also flexes with the 32T... with the 48T still does, but very minimal flex.

Your solution to the flex problem is called 44/48, or if you can get a 44T/52T that would be even better.

G.

Robocam, May I ask if you are using it in a full suspension bike?

I do and at full throttle my frame flex a lot and make the motor shift as well. It doesn't have any problems if I'm gentle with the throttle but it is not what I want.

Today I tried 44 Motor/32 rear as well and it wasn't worth it as you described.

Tomorrow, I'll install everything again in a hard tail, and I'll post here how it behaves.

At stock power levels, at 52V, on speed 2 (i.e. no jumper on the 3-speed connector), my Cyclone has somehow shifted to the point where the left crank cannot clear the motor (i.e. it hits the motor and won't turn). I'm definitely going to have to see if Mike is selling upgraded brackets.

Note: I am using a 48-32 crankset from Cyclone with an ISIS bottom bracket. I may have to use the 44-44 that came with the kit because with the 48-32, it is sending way too much torque to the rear wheel. I can wheelie with the MIDDLE gears on my 29er!!! It's insanely powerful!

 

[juanfeli]

If you change to a single speed, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a mid drive?

Yes and no. For me mid drive is not just the gears. It is also the handling and more than a fact I think that should be a personal preference. I rode couple of powerful DD and they felt heavy.

But there is something else and it is its versatility. I went form a 29 Full S bike to a 26 hard tail in less than an hour. Or if I don’t like Single S, I can go 2x1 or 1x10 again and in mi case without spending more than the $389.95 that Luna charged me.

There are also more things that I want to experiment and to share here like the 3 speed switch, cruise control, PAS, CA3 that I already have but I haven’t been able to use properly because I have been more concern about the frame flexing and mounts moving. That is also the reason that I put mechanical brakes, so I’ll not waste time giving maintenance instead of learning about ebikes or having fun riding.

It is more likely that I’ll reach the same conclusion as G flawless formula. If not, hopefully I can share my findings.

Robocam, why you have so many spacers? It is like you are missing the long silver ones. Maybe it is not a bad idea to start again with new mounts for $36.99 http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=228

 

[gman1971]

Hey robocam,

Higher voltage will give you a lot more torque so I would advise against not going that route without a properly secured motor to the frame; if its bad on 52, on 72 it might not be pretty.

That suxs... that you can't fit the 44-48-32... so my recommendation would be to get the 14T freewheel for the kit and replace the 13T that came with it: Such freewheel is available from cyclone and will achieve the same effect as running a 44-48 combo; except it will also lower the torque from the drivechain as well thus making it flex even less. Its a 10% force reduction overall plus keep the bike in mode #3, I think thats what made the biggest difference for me. I will run a 3 way switch on the trike but I will keep that thing always in mode 3 as IMO there is no reason to run 2+ kW with pedal cadence.

G.

This is why I'm considering splitting my 20Ah 52V pack into two 52V 10Ah packs and wiring them in series (or some other configuration using the 112 cells in my pack - maybe 72V?) and running it at maybe 30 amps.

I just tried to fit a 44-48-32 to my bike, but the 48 hits the chainstay. A 44-44-32 works though.

I think a hardtail will greatly reduce the flexing in my case. On my bike,I can see that it is caused by the fact that there is a pivot there. If that pivot were gone, the chainstay would go straight to the bottom bracket. It would handle compression much better than my current frame, which does not have a straight chainstay on the right (it is curved). I've attached a photo below to show you what I mean. When I apply the brake and throttle, it actually makes that curve bend. It's scary!

 

[gman1971]

Since your mounting bracket is bent I would drop LightningRod a PM asking for the price for his reinforced bracket. Don't get the OEM stock hardware. If you ran a 48-32 that would explain (coupled with the suspension) why the thing bent so bad.

G.

Unfortunately, I don't think my bike is the culprit. One of the bolts on the Cyclone are bent. I've attached a photo. Even with the washers, the bolt bent, AND the aluminum square is deformed. See how the washers smashed the aluminum block while the bolt at the bottom is no longer parallel with the bolt at the top? I'm going to need a whole new mounting kit.

If you change to a single speed, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a mid drive?

I think that I found the cause of the flex. The PFBB adapter was broken.

I'll install a solid metal adapter in that bike and leave it in standby, hopefully one day I'll put on it a Tangent drive. Or maybe I'll sell the bike here on the cheap for an ES member who want to pursue that project,

Mean the time, I'll be using the kit with an old trials bike. So far single speed 13t-32 front 44-18 rear, as that was what I had at hand.

I'll post here how it behaves with (or without) a 3 speed switch. If I don't like it. I'll try with a 2x1 speed (Cyclone triple chainring, or similar heavy duty from Sick Bike P)

I took it for a short spin and I'm pretty exited about it. Of course it jerky, but it is also a trails bike. So it mus have some place to use it with lots of fun.

I'm looking forward to see how far I can go tuning a Cyclone 3000 as single speed.

 

[Phife]

Since your mounting bracket is bent I would drop LightningRod a PM asking for the price for his reinforced bracket. Don't get the OEM stock hardware. If you ran a 48-32 that would explain (coupled with the suspension) why the thing bent so bad.

Ive been trying to get him to sell me a set of those brackets for 3 months now, he either completely ignores my emails, or dances around the questions when I actually ask how much and when I can get them. Its really frustrating dealing with Mike. Bad customer service IMO. Im probably gonna give up on that idea and see if I can design and make my own brackets. Or hopefully Lunacycle, or someone else comes up with a set for sale.

Thats where this Kit really needs some work, is in a better bracket mounting system to properly hold the motor.

 

[gman1971]

Since your mounting bracket is bent I would drop LightningRod a PM asking for the price for his reinforced bracket. Don't get the OEM stock hardware. If you ran a 48-32 that would explain (coupled with the suspension) why the thing bent so bad.

Ive been trying to get him to sell me a set of those brackets for 3 months now, he either completely ignores my emails, or dances around the questions when I actually ask how much and when I can get them. Its really frustrating dealing with Mike. Bad customer service IMO. Im probably gonna give up on that idea and see if I can design and make my own brackets. Or hopefully Lunacycle, or someone else comes up with a set for sale.

Thats where this Kit really needs some work, is in a better bracket mounting system to properly hold the motor.

What looks like the secret sauce is the third plate on the outside, as Dingus pointed out. If you add that third plate holding the screws from the cap end and tighten those to the other adjacent motor bolts it should be much stronger... or you can run a shitload of RPM as I do and not have the thing bend in the first place...

 

[gman1971]

Today after a 1460 mile run with zero-issues I had my first problem... but no, it wasn't mechanical...

All of the sudden riding to work the motor quits on me. I am WTF... it was raining so I figured that perhaps water got in there somehow? Not sure how that could happen b/c all cables are spliced, soldered together and shrink wrapped so there is zero chance of bad contacts... well... fast forward 5 minutes (was almost at work already) pedaling and after losening the hose clamp and tilted the plate down to allow for inspection and everything seemed fine; I also checked for bolts bent and everything lines up. Anyhow... I started inspecting all the cables and wiggling these around and all of the sudden the rear wheel starts moving... so I quickly glanced to the cable and turns out that two of the throttle cables were actually rubbed bare, as in the copper was exposed and probably shorting with all the salt on the road thus not allowing any throttle. The most likely reason these rubbed bare was because the cables were sandwiched between the motor and the bottom frame tube so vibrations eventually got the best of them... in the end it was my piss poor installation job... so added some electrical tape and routed the wires around a different path and problem solved. MacGyver would've been proud.

G.

 

[mountain biker]

i appreciate the feed back...thank you....this is very interesting.....so i am hearing about 1600 watts and a reduction say 32 front 36 back gives you a body slam....nice...that's some crazy power.in general if you were running a reduction for first gear...what power do you use if you were to conservatively get a low gear hill climber.or something that would feel fun on the flat at a stoplight on take off... that it will not flip on your system. what rpm at wheel are you getting what number of watts being applied and drawn from motor.....so this three way switch how much does it lower the power levels....is there a percntage of full power...level 1 is 50 percent level 2 is 75 percent level 3 is 100 percent of full power.....as always i appreciate everyones feedback..and i thank you...this triple chainring thing is kinda unique...before could only find a dozen or so ES people and few you tubers that did it.....something premade freewheel front 3 crank is very cool....,thank you.

 

[gman1971]

i appreciate the feed back...thank you....this is very interesting.....so i am hearing about 1600 watts and a reduction say 32 front 36 back gives you a body slam....nice...that's some crazy power.in general if you were running a reduction for first gear...what power do you use if you were to conservatively get a low gear hill climber.or something that would feel fun on the flat at a stoplight on take off... that it will not flip on your system. what rpm at wheel are you getting what number of watts being applied and drawn from motor.....so this three way switch how much does it lower the power levels....is there a percntage of full power...level 1 is 50 percent level 2 is 75 percent level 3 is 100 percent of full power.....as always i appreciate everyones feedback..and i thank you...this triple chainring thing is kinda unique...before could only find a dozen or so ES people and few you tubers that did it.....something premade freewheel front 3 crank is very cool....,thank you.

My average is 1600 watts, sometimes I'll push it to 2 kW, especially if I feel like reaching top speed... I don't do wheelies or sudden takeoffs from stop signs, etc; I value my commuter reliability and I don't abuse for the same reason I don't do 6500 RPM clutch dumps on my car starting out of every stop light I encounter.

I run a 44-48-32T chainring and a 13T freewheel at the motor. I have a 11-36T cassette. I ride on roads using exclusively the 48T chainring. I never go below gear #4 with the 48T chainring either. I set up my derailleur to rub when going too high (or too low) on the wrong chainring.

My crank is spinning around 160-180 RPM.

The three way switch controls max RPM of the motor, I don't think it changes the amount of power directly.

 

[robocam]

[strike]Why would increasing the voltage increase the torque? I thought torque was directly related to current, and the controller limits the current to ~41A. Also, I was planning to run maybe 30 amps instead of 40, so that should reduce the torque by 25%.[/strike] Would you happen know how I can get the freewheel off the motor spindle mount, or should I just get a whole new assembly?

The only reason I might want to use the 3-speed settings would be to limit the top speed, especially if I'm towing kids or if someone else uses my bike.

Hey robocam,

Higher voltage will give you a lot more torque so I would advise against not going that route without a properly secured motor to the frame; if its bad on 52, on 72 it might not be pretty.

That suxs... that you can't fit the 44-48-32... so my recommendation would be to get the 14T freewheel for the kit and replace the 13T that came with it: Such freewheel is available from cyclone and will achieve the same effect as running a 44-48 combo; except it will also lower the torque from the drivechain as well thus making it flex even less. Its a 10% force reduction overall plus keep the bike in mode #3, I think thats what made the biggest difference for me. I will run a 3 way switch on the trike but I will keep that thing always in mode 3 as IMO there is no reason to run 2+ kW with pedal cadence.

G.

This is why I'm considering splitting my 20Ah 52V pack into two 52V 10Ah packs and wiring them in series (or some other configuration using the 112 cells in my pack - maybe 72V?) and running it at maybe 30 amps.

I just tried to fit a 44-48-32 to my bike, but the 48 hits the chainstay. A 44-44-32 works though.

I think a hardtail will greatly reduce the flexing in my case. On my bike,I can see that it is caused by the fact that there is a pivot there. If that pivot were gone, the chainstay would go straight to the bottom bracket. It would handle compression much better than my current frame, which does not have a straight chainstay on the right (it is curved). I've attached a photo below to show you what I mean. When I apply the brake and throttle, it actually makes that curve bend. It's scary!

 

[gman1971]

Robocam:

Current is not torque: current is the amount of electrons flowing through a conductor. Voltage is the potential difference from which electrons are flowing from. Imagine volts and amps as a waterfall. The amount of water flowing is the amps and how high the waterfall is the voltage.

As to why amps are not torque, its all based on this simple equations:

Power = Intensity x Voltage
Power = Torque x RPM

So since Power = Power, we can write that Intensity x Voltage = Torque x RPM

If you have 40 amps and 40 volts, you have 1600 watts.

Now lets assume our motor is spinning at 10 RPM (again units are not correct, should be radians/second, but it conveys the point of power conservation)
1600 watts = 10 RPM x T(unknown torque)

We solve for T and we have:
T = 160 units of torque.

Now we bump the voltage to 72V and keep current constant at 40, that yields 2880 watts.

So if our motor is spinning at 10 RPM, for power conservation to hold true this is what you have:
2880 watts = 10 RPM x T(unknown torque)

We solve for T once again and we get:
T = 288 units of torque.

So as you can see we've almost doubled the torque in our motor.

To limit speed I use gearing. I can get my bike to ride at 13 mph at full throttle with the 32T-36T combo. The motor still puts out full torque and you're never out of the torque powerband when you limit your RPM. The reason why my motor/drivetrain is holding so well is b/c I run it at full RPM at all times, and due to the power equation P = T x RPM at max RPM the torque hast to be very low. I also don't let anyone ride my ebike, same thing with my cars; its just asking for trouble. If someone wants to try it out I simple tell them I would rather not. Same thing as letting a buddy test your Hayabusa when he has never ridden one... not gonna happen. Use common sense, I understand its cool to show it to ppl, but in the end if something breaks or snaps, its my fault and I'll be splurging for the fix/repair/replace... etc.

The only reason I can see to use the mode switch is you have an encounter with law enforcement... you set it to #1 and a very low gear and the bike won't go more than 8-10 mph if the officer tries it out... Other than that, run mode #3 at all times; plus the motor will only get like 20F above ambient, controller is not even warm to the touch on mine.

G.

Why would increasing the voltage increase the torque? I thought torque was directly related to current, and the controller limits the current to ~41A. Also, I was planning to run maybe 30 amps instead of 40, so that should reduce the torque by 25%. Would you happen know how I can get the freewheel off the motor spindle mount, or should I just get a whole new assembly?

The only reason I might want to use the 3-speed settings would be to limit the top speed, especially if I'm towing kids or if someone else uses my bike.

Hey robocam,

Higher voltage will give you a lot more torque so I would advise against not going that route without a properly secured motor to the frame; if its bad on 52, on 72 it might not be pretty.

That suxs... that you can't fit the 44-48-32... so my recommendation would be to get the 14T freewheel for the kit and replace the 13T that came with it: Such freewheel is available from cyclone and will achieve the same effect as running a 44-48 combo; except it will also lower the torque from the drivechain as well thus making it flex even less. Its a 10% force reduction overall plus keep the bike in mode #3, I think thats what made the biggest difference for me. I will run a 3 way switch on the trike but I will keep that thing always in mode 3 as IMO there is no reason to run 2+ kW with pedal cadence.

G.

This is why I'm considering splitting my 20Ah 52V pack into two 52V 10Ah packs and wiring them in series (or some other configuration using the 112 cells in my pack - maybe 72V?) and running it at maybe 30 amps.

I just tried to fit a 44-48-32 to my bike, but the 48 hits the chainstay. A 44-44-32 works though.

I think a hardtail will greatly reduce the flexing in my case. On my bike,I can see that it is caused by the fact that there is a pivot there. If that pivot were gone, the chainstay would go straight to the bottom bracket. It would handle compression much better than my current frame, which does not have a straight chainstay on the right (it is curved). I've attached a photo below to show you what I mean. When I apply the brake and throttle, it actually makes that curve bend. It's scary!

 

[1KW]

juan,
I have am getting a nice intense tracer full suspension bike, but your review makes me want to swap to a rocky mountain hardtail. Should I just get the hardtail and save myself $500 from the full suspension? The speeds this kit can obtain makes me really want a full suspension however.

Anything that I can mount so the motor wont damage the downtube on the bike?

 

[gman1971]

juan,
I have am getting a nice intense tracer full suspension bike, but your review makes me want to swap to a rocky mountain hardtail. Should I just get the hardtail and save myself $500 from the full suspension? The speeds this kit can obtain makes me really want a full suspension however.

Anything that I can mount so the motor wont damage the downtube on the bike?

What are you going to do with the eBike? trail riding? commuting?

G.

 

[1KW]

80% road commuting, 20% trails. Obviously I wont be dh racing the bike, since I highly doubt any middrive motor setup/cranks could take the bashing.

 

[Remi812]

Hello ES.com,

I am new to this forum and since it helped me quite a bit deciding how I was going to build my own eBike, I figured I had to share a picture of the end product :


I started with a 29" hardtail and quickly realized that a full suspension frame was the way to go for my usage (trail riding in Michigan). I bought this Banshee Prime frame and started building the bike including a cyclone kit.

I bought everything from LunaCycle (cyclone kit, battery, charger, wires, connectors...) and I gotta say, those guys are awesome. If you live in the US, go check out their website, you'll find what you need at the right price !

The battery pack that I chose is a Samsung 18650 30q 52V 15Ah (600$). I carry it in my backpack, it is light (9lbs) and I don't feel it as much as I thought I would. The battery capacity is perfect for what I need : 12miles of hard trail riding. I don't need more when it is empty, I am out of juice as well...

So far I am pretty happy with the kit. I made a custom bracket attached to a hose clamp to replace the stock zip tie that holds the motor. The amount of flex under load is now reasonable and I don't use the washers mod that everybody recommends here. I started with the stock square BB and there is a bit of a play. I switched to the ISIS BB and it is rock solid.
Note that the controller is NOT water proof, I fried it after I washed my bike so be careful with that. I got a replacement from LunaCycle for pretty cheap (45$).
The other issue that I am currently having is the freewheel on the motor, it started to slide out a little and bent the little screw that hold it in place. I am going to need a replacement part soon which should be fairly cheap as well. I did not use loctite and that was my mistake I guess.

Other than that, it is awesome, it is a whole new experience, it is no longer mountain biking, it so much better. I am having fun uphill now, I drift in corners, and finish the trail that I used to do in 1h15min in just 42min. It is still a nice workout though but less cardio for sure...
Note that I also ride a dirt bike (250 2 stroke) and the amount of power is for sure much lower, but when I am out there on the trail I don't feel like I need more, I am already most of the time going too fast.

That is all I had to say about this kit, just go for it you won't regret !

 

[le15otl]

Nice bike remi I like how neat it looks. I carry the battery in backpack but my Mongoose fs still looks super messy compared to yours.

Robocam, I have the same thing as you with the mounting bolt bending and I'm trying to find a solution.... I've bent around 3 non-hardened steel bolts and snapped a hardened one. I think if we could find a way to fit an 8mm bolt instead it would be good. Even though i've ridden 100s of miles with it bent (more than yours) i don't like it, it's unsatisfying and makes the chain come off sometimes.

 

[gman1971]

Nice bike, dude!!

Sooooooo, on the torque not equal current matter... let me clarify some things before the wolves eat me alive on that. So, constant current = constant torque indeed, but current is not torque... And for that statement to hold true it requires current regulation AT THE PHASES, not at the input side. So when you control the phase current like the Sabvoton controller or some of those programmable controllers then you're good, more current = more torque = more power = more RPM etc... equal current = equal torque... BUT ONLY WITH PHASE CURRENT REGULATION!!

HOWEVER, the Cyclone controller sounds to me more like a chopper circuit than a full current regulated circuit; as in, its limiting the input current at X amount of amps, but the phases don't seem to be current limited, they are chopped; as in, you get the benefits of the 72V inrush but when the thing is about to exceed the limit it cuts off power, hence a chopper circuit. On a true constant current circuit the resistance of the motor and the intensity desired are the only things that drive the voltage required... so in that case it might be a bad idea to run too high of a voltage.

So regardless of the circuit type there are some considerations

-If you run a chopper circuit then you'll benefit from higher voltage up to a point.
-If you run a true Constant Current circuit at phases then it will be a waste to run more than what the motor needs to run at max current. So if the motor needs 36V to run 40 amps then there is no reason whatsoever to run the motor at 48, or even 72V; why? because power conservation still holds true here, so the power has to go somewhere and that somewhere is your controller, where something is eating the extra 40 volts that you're feeding thus heating up in wasted power.

G.

 

[juanfeli]

Today I did a 3mi ride with the 26 no suspension single speed bike that I did last Sunday with the 29 Full S 1x10 speed with the same C3kW kit. Here my findings:

Decrease the Max speed from 31.5mi/h to 21.3mi/h(Strava).
Average speed, quite the same.
It took me more or less the same time. I think the reason is that in the trails I can't go faster, it doesn't matter which bike. In the trails both of them feel really fast.
I haven't hooked the CA yet.
I finish whit my arms a lot more beaten. In comparison, The salsa feels like a very refined Bentley and the Planet X like Bull Riding.
With the kind of riding that I did today, I'm pretty confident that something with the kit is going to break soon, no matter what bike. Hopefully not.

Which bike do I prefer? Both!.

juan,
I have am getting a nice intense tracer full suspension bike, but your review makes me want to swap to a rocky mountain hardtail. Should I just get the hardtail and save myself $500 from the full suspension? The speeds this kit can obtain makes me really want a full suspension however.

Anything that I can mount so the motor wont damage the downtube on the bike?

1KW,

I recommend you to buy the one that you like it more and you can afford. Or both.

Lets not generalize that this kit doesn't work with a Full Suspension. A Hardtail frame made of same materials of a FS, must be stronger. But that doesn't mean that you can find a strong FS frame or a weak HT. The Salsa Spearfish is a very light XC bike. I think that this frame must flex a lot in comparison with a Down Hill One.

I'm pretty sure that I still can use the Spearfish with stronger/modified mounts or limiting the power with a CA3. Also would help a 48T chainring to front.

If I'd would choose a bike for the reliability of this kit, I'd go for 68mm instead of 73mm, Hardtail Instead of FS, BSA shells on top of everything else specially press fit and 48t instead of 44t

If I'd go for fun, I'd go for the bike that I like to ride more in the terrain /commute that is going to be used more and upgrade its components as they break.

 

[robocam]

You're totally right. I had a brain fart. This would explain why my brackets were so easily bent with 51.8V vs your 44.4V.

So if I want to run the same wattage at a higher voltage, I'd have to calculate the current, and set the limit at that current. I completely overlooked this. Thanks for pointing this out!

Robocam:

Current is not torque: current is the amount of electrons flowing through a conductor. Voltage is the potential difference from which electrons are flowing from. Imagine volts and amps as a waterfall. The amount of water flowing is the amps and how high the waterfall is the voltage.

As to why amps are not torque, its all based on this simple equations:

Power = Intensity x Voltage
Power = Torque x RPM

So since Power = Power, we can write that Intensity x Voltage = Torque x RPM

If you have 40 amps and 40 volts, you have 1600 watts.

Now lets assume our motor is spinning at 10 RPM (again units are not correct, should be radians/second, but it conveys the point of power conservation)
1600 watts = 10 RPM x T(unknown torque)

We solve for T and we have:
T = 160 units of torque.

Now we bump the voltage to 72V and keep current constant at 40, that yields 2880 watts.

So if our motor is spinning at 10 RPM, for power conservation to hold true this is what you have:
2880 watts = 10 RPM x T(unknown torque)

We solve for T once again and we get:
T = 288 units of torque.

So as you can see we've almost doubled the torque in our motor...

 

[robocam]

Well, it shouldn't matter if I'm running a 32 or 48 in regards to the bracket bending. The only thing that should affect the bracket's bending is the motor sprocket size since that is what determines how hard the motor pulls against the bracket.

Since your mounting bracket is bent I would drop LightningRod a PM asking for the price for his reinforced bracket. Don't get the OEM stock hardware. If you ran a 48-32 that would explain (coupled with the suspension) why the thing bent so bad.

G.

 

[gman1971]

That is assuming the Cyclone controller has true phase current limiting... but if not, you might as well run lower voltage and higher capacity to achieve what you seek.

In a true current controlled controller the input voltage to the controller is irrelevant as you very well said; well, actually higher voltage = more heat, since all that excess voltage has to be shed somewhere. Since the motor might only require 40 volts to run at whatever amps you're shooting for, all those extra 32V are being dissipated through the MOSFETs as heat.. thus making a VERY inefficient setup. So if you only need 40 volts to run 40 amps; again, in a true CC phase controller, then I would only run the thing at 12S lipo with 44.4 nominal... not any higher.

G.

You're totally right. I had a brain fart. This would explain why my brackets were so easily bent with 51.8V vs your 44.4V.

So if I want to run the same wattage at a higher voltage, I'd have to calculate the current, and set the limit at that current. I completely overlooked this. Thanks for pointing this out!

Robocam:

Current is not torque: current is the amount of electrons flowing through a conductor. Voltage is the potential difference from which electrons are flowing from. Imagine volts and amps as a waterfall. The amount of water flowing is the amps and how high the waterfall is the voltage.

As to why amps are not torque, its all based on this simple equations:

Power = Intensity x Voltage
Power = Torque x RPM

So since Power = Power, we can write that Intensity x Voltage = Torque x RPM

If you have 40 amps and 40 volts, you have 1600 watts.

Now lets assume our motor is spinning at 10 RPM (again units are not correct, should be radians/second, but it conveys the point of power conservation)
1600 watts = 10 RPM x T(unknown torque)

We solve for T and we have:
T = 160 units of torque.

Now we bump the voltage to 72V and keep current constant at 40, that yields 2880 watts.

So if our motor is spinning at 10 RPM, for power conservation to hold true this is what you have:
2880 watts = 10 RPM x T(unknown torque)

We solve for T once again and we get:
T = 288 units of torque.

So as you can see we've almost doubled the torque in our motor...

 

[robocam]

Those aren't spacers. They're washers over the long silver threaded tubes to make the setup much stiffer. The idea came from Gman's post in the link below. Unfortunately, with the spacers, the Cyclone just bends other parts, like the bolts instead. The stock brackets for the Cyclone just can't handle the power (at least not at 52V).

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=50#p1143246

...Robocam, why you have so many spacers? It is like you are missing the long silver ones....