new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[dirkdiggler]

Bafang throttle should work. Just need it wired correctly. I've been using this throttle. Same as lmx bikes uses. No voltage readout, but I don't ride long enough to really need it.
https://www.googleadservices.com/pa...UKEwic5Kqw9oTTAhUT32MKHV8gAdQQwg8IIigA&adurl=

 

[DingusMcGee]

dirkdiggler,

you say,

I can at least now test the difference with hub, hub and cyclone and just the cyclone.

Will your "test" be done on some serious moto cycle trail or at least a difficult mtn bike trail? I would think you could throw that hub motor away. But it all is amusing.

 

[dirkdiggler]

Running both motors on my bike, with 15s on the Cyclone and 16s on the hub went well. I took up it up a dirt road that climbs 500ft per mile. Rocky, sandy soil with ruts. Averaged over 20mph up it mostly going 25mph, which my Cyclone bike would do about 15mph, so I was surprised. Don't know if the moto seat just makes it so your balls don't get racked and you can go faster or if the extra power from the hub helped. The dual motor bike is about 30 pounds heavier which sucks, but you can't really feel it on a ride. I'm hesitant to ride our single tracks with this, as it doesn't look like a bike anymore. The rear moto tire, moto seat and lack of pedals stand out like a sour thumb in mountain bike mecca. There are some trails that I can hit in the off hours that people aren't so concerned about. Mountain bikers are pretty pissy around me. I can feel the anger when I cruise right by them on climbs. The cyclone threw the chain on the end of the climb. My chain tensioner had busted off, so I'll go to plan B on that. I have ridden the bike plenty without the Cyclone and was disappointed in just the hub motor. Climbs were terrible - it would bog on anything steep. Fine on the flats, but would take a bit to accelerate. Cyclone improves on that. Now does the Cyclone alone climb as well? I'll try it on 20s and see which I like better. I'll rid the bike of the heavy hub and find out. Battery management will be much easier without having two controllers. Really would like a wider tire on the front. The 2.75 tire seems so squirrelly at those speeds. If I like just the Cyclone, I'd like to have both wheels moto tires -21" up front and 19" in the rear. That would also help lift the bottom bracket and help the motor from getting worked.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Luna comes out with new Cyclone 3000 kit at $799.00

see:

https://lunacycle.com/luna-special-edition-deluxe-mini-cyclone-kit/

 

[mr.electric]

Looks like they changed the ugly cyclone controller to a Kelly controller and added some proper mounting brackets.

 

[robocam]

$859 with the pictured controller. $943 with ISIS bottom bracket/crank arms and triple crankset.

Luna comes out with new Cyclone 3000 kit at $799.00

see:

https://lunacycle.com/luna-special-edition-deluxe-mini-cyclone-kit/

 

[Ddt]

Need more info about luna but seem from the picture he use tiny motor whith higher reduction.
Have you note on the cyclone site he not sell the 1980-3000w motor,and why?

 

[robocam]

Yes, that is the motor from the 650-1680W kit with the higher reduction. They probably like it because it's smaller but it's already been shown to overheat at 40A, so I wonder how it will perform at 60A.

If only someone would put spiral-cut steel gears on the Cyclone 3000, that would make it closer to being the perfect DIY motor. I just put the Cyclone 3000 back on my bike, and wow, it is so much more powerful than the BBSHD! Silence is golden though, so the BBSHD is going on my trail bike, while my Cyclone bike will be my trailer-hauling bike.

Need more info about luna but seem from the picture he use tiny motor whith higher reduction.
Have you note on the cyclone site he not sell the 1980-3000w motor,and why?

 

[mr.electric]

with steel gears the cyclone 3000 would be even louder. what makes the bbshd so special is it is quiet like a hub motor.

 

[robocam]

Ok, plastic then, but they need to be spiral cut. Cars use steel gears though. How come they're so quiet? The BBSHD has a steel gear in it though.

with steel gears the cyclone 3000 would be even louder. what makes the bbshd so special is it is quiet like a hub motor.

 

[sather]

The new Luna Special Edition Deluxe Mini Cyclone Kit:
https://lunacycle.com/luna-special-edition-deluxe-mini-cyclone-kit/

Questions and observations:
The Kelly KBS48121X 120amp controller is:
"programmed and wired specifically for the cyclone drives"
"automatically shuts down if the cyclone gets too hot" Does the Mini Cyclone have a temperature sensor? The Cyclone 3000 does not.

"Each drive is modified to make 50 percent quieter". How?
Does it still use steel gears?

Location of the controller is asking for trouble from moisture and bashing.

 

[Megsy73]

It looks to be a knock off version of the AFT kit without any of the strengthening mods, at 48v 3000w it's asking for trouble !! The AFT has huge cooling fins, Wipperman 7r8 chain and ACS freewheels, hardened gears and oil in the gearbox. So it should handle that power better for longer vs the luna which doesn't have any of those, so it wont last long before cooking the motor

Also for the noise they may have tried to copy what AFT did, if you scroll half way down the page they mention they got a 50 % reduction in noise using "special sauce"???

AFT describes how they got a 50% noise reduction here http://www.aft-ebike.com/why-choose-aft.html

 

[robocam]

Does anyone have that Kelly controller? I'd like to know if the throttle response feels any different (the Cyclone controller ramps up the speed so slowly, especially in speed 3), and if it will spin the motor up as fast as the stock controller in speed 3.

https://lunacycle.com/deluxe-kelly-controller-for-cyclone/

 

[robocam]

Has anyone tried using a half-link chain in the secondary reduction (motor-to-crankset) to reduce drops? After experiencing how awesome narrow-wide rings are at holding a chain, I ordered a narrow-wide motor-to-crankset chainring to replace the outer chainring of my crankset, but before the chainring even arrived, I thought of using a half-link chain instead.

Since with a half-link chain there isn't an alternating sideplate distance, shouldn't the chain stay on just as well as a narrow-wide setup using a regular chain? If I use a narrow-wide chainring with a regular chain, the motor freewheel sprocket still isn't a narrow-wide sprocket, so I wouldn't be getting the full benefit, but with a half-link chain, I would be getting improved chain retention on both sprockets.

http://kmcchain.us/chain/hl710-silver/

 

[dirkdiggler]

Robo,
Thanks for the Kelly controller link. Is that controller for the mini cyclone or the 3kw? Doesn't really specify in the specs, but going to 120 amps would be sweet.

As to the half link, I actually went to the lbs to get one and they didn't have any. I think it would be a great way to avoid chain drops on the motor chain. That's one of my complaints about the stock mounting setup. Why would you make the mounts so a half link is necessary? Not much thought went into the design of it.

 

[robocam]

Sure thing! In the description it says it's for either the Mini or the 3000. It also says it's a 60 amp continuous controller (120 amp burst). I wonder what the actual continuous is. It's also a 24-48V controller, so nothing over 14s or 60V unfortunately.

I hear ya, but I'm glad we have that price point as an option. Otherwise look at how much the new Cyclone Mini kit costs ($859!?!?). SBP has been selling it for just over $300 for years. I can't imagine how much an AFT version would cost. I mean it's great that those are available, but at this point in time, I just can't stomach those costs.

I'm very happy with the mods that I've made to my Cyclone to make it more reliable, but I can understand that most people probably want the trouble-free ease of the BBSHD (I could not believe how easy it is to install that thing, and it's so reliable!). Though I am surprised more people haven't made aftermarket parts for the Cyclone 3000 that are available to the public (like those $50 Lightningrod mounts that never got sold). We need better mounts (that don't cost $100) and a better chain tensioner. I mean, Luna Cycle has the capability to make those don't they? Maybe they don't have the resources available at the time, or they don't feel it's profitable. I'm just glad most of this can be fixed by spending a few dollars are the local hardware store.

But as much as I love the Cyclone 3000, I'm ready to ditch the secondary reduction chain. I'm thinking about buying the bare BBSHD motor to run with an external controller if my Cyclone 3000 ever dies (which it probably won't, especially at 52V/40A).

Here's where I purchased the half-link chain. It only took one business day to arrive!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221714567325

Robo,
Thanks for the Kelly controller link. Is that controller for the mini cyclone or the 3kw? Doesn't really specify in the specs, but going to 120 amps would be sweet.

As to the half link, I actually went to the lbs to get one and they didn't have any. I think it would be a great way to avoid chain drops on the motor chain. That's one of my complaints about the stock mounting setup. Why would you make the mounts so a half link is necessary? Not much thought went into the design of it.

 

[robocam]

Looks like the Kelly controller's actual output is 80 amps. Cool. I want.

Also, I'm surprised at how close the 30 and 50 amp BBSHDs are. But I'm even more surprised at how close the near-5000 watt Mini Cyclone compares to the BBSHD, though I'll bet the difference in real life is bigger than this video leads one to believe. These were single speed bikes.

One thing's for sure. That Mini Cyclone sings to be heard! I wonder how long the Mini can dissipate 4700 watts (58.8 x 80 = 4704).

Nice to see Ron in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf5oR02QaG8&feature=youtu.be

 

[dirkdiggler]

80 amps continous? Now the whole debate whether its better to have 72v at 40 amp or 48v at 80 amp.
Hmmmmmm.....?

The mini-cyclone does look quite nice. Is the Luna version worth the extra $300 or so? Maybe just put a new controller on the BBSHD bare bones motor? Still not going to get the 3800 watts that the minicyclone gives you with the kelly controller. Don't know how the BBSHD has held up to the abuse. I always disliked the extra chain from the Cyclone - I thought I'd catch all kinds of crap in there, hands, pants and fingers, but haven't had issues yet. Still hate to be messing with thrown chains.

I do love what Luna Cycle has done. If I had the extra time and money I'd do the same thing. They have built up some nice complete bikes for those that don't want to tinker with things. Also the ability to take the Chinese products and improve upon their designs.

 

[robocam]

I think higher voltage, less amps is the way to go. You get higher speeds, and greater drivetrain longevity. In the video, he explains how the 50A BBSHD only accelerates more quickly up to max RPM vs. the regular BBSHD.

After trying the Cyclone 3000 and BBSHD, the next thing I'd like to try is an external controller on a BBSHD. The Cyclone 3000 can be trouble-free for a while but if you change anything, it can act up for a while until you find out what's wrong. For example, I just put the Cyclone back on my Trek after trying the BBSHD, and I decided to try a 48T outer chainring instead of the 44T that I've used in the past. For seemingly no reason whatsoever, it kept throwing the motor chain. I tried shortening the chain, but that didn't help. I checked the alignment and adjusted the chain tensioner but it still threw the chain. At the 3rd chain throw (and this was in a day or so), it snapped the chain in half. Then I decided to try a 44T outer chainring to see if that would help, and it did! No more chains thrown, but that's when I decided to buy a narrow-wide for the outer and then thought of the half-link chain.

So that's why I'd rather not deal with a secondary reduction chain and for similar reasons as yours. I don't want to lose toes. When the chain snapped, it tore the chain guard off and left gouges down the crank. I'm so glad I wasn't injured.

But the main issue with the BBSHD is the chainline if you plan to put high loads on it while using the largest rear cogs. To deal with chainline issues, you may have to try some of the stuff they did in this thread.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=84097

I use this bike to tow my trailers, so the BBSHD just won't work for this. There isn't a chainring small enough (even 28T) or a rear cog large enough (I'm using a 50T Shark in the cassette), and you can't send enough current to the BBSHD to make it as powerful as a Cyclone.

But for now, I think I have my Cyclone dialed-in, and when I put the half-link chain on, it will be added protection against drops, hopefully. The Cyclone is just too much fun, so I'm willing to put up with it.

Oh, another idea I've toyed with is to use a BBSHD in place of the Cyclone to drive the outer chainring. I'd have to come up with a mount to hold the BBSHD (just 2 pieces of aluminum should do), but it would drive the outer chainring in the same way as the Cyclone. This way I can have a 3rd reduction stage for more reduction, and my bike would be nearly silent, but I have no need for such a thing at this point in time, so the Cyclone will do for now.

80 amps continous? Now the whole debate whether its better to have 72v at 40 amp or 48v at 80 amp.
Hmmmmmm.....?

The mini-cyclone does look quite nice. Is the Luna version worth the extra $300 or so? Maybe just put a new controller on the BBSHD bare bones motor? Still not going to get the 3800 watts that the minicyclone gives you with the kelly controller. Don't know how the BBSHD has held up to the abuse. I always disliked the extra chain from the Cyclone - I thought I'd catch all kinds of crap in there, hands, pants and fingers, but haven't had issues yet. Still hate to be messing with thrown chains.

I do love what Luna Cycle has done. If I had the extra time and money I'd do the same thing. They have built up some nice complete bikes for those that don't want to tinker with things. Also the ability to take the Chinese products and improve upon their designs.

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

I have thought of doing the same thing. Mount the BBSHD like the Cyclone. It would fix the chainline too.

 

[DingusMcGee]

The Kelly controller once indicated my setup had either bad Halls or bad wiring to them -- by the CAN bus lights flash of 4-2 then went back to steady green -- meaning good to go. But the bike had no go and I pedaled home. The Halls are under the motor cover plate opposite the shaft output side. The wiring from the controller to where it is solder lapped onto the Hall sensor circuit board [CB] was good -- also across the 7 pin JST plug. That meant likely the Halls or the CB region had the fault. But I still had one more "tool" before diving into replacing the Halls -- the benchtop tool consisting of a throttle, battery, C-3000 motor & C-3000 controller. The test set up on the bench ran its motor but this benchtop tool could not turn the motor that had the bad Kelley Hall signal.

Pablo of SickBikeParts told me they do not sell the CB alone for the C-3000. He did not know that Hall sensor part number. Removing the Halls in one piece can be quite difficult as moisture accumulates in the case and ever so slightly rusts the groove within the armature that these endwise trapezoid shaped sensors fit into. The rust tightens up the containment space of the Halls so tight that you can pull off all 3 leads and not budge the Hall. These Halls with the broken off leads can be drilled out with a very small bid and then the residue removed [punched inwards] with a small screwdriver/chisel and cleaned with a vacuum/blower. The OEM Halls used on this motor were the Micronas [from Zurich] 5030 501 and I had about a dozen Honeywell Hall S41 533's on hand. The links to each manual of these Halls:

https://www.pollin.de/shop/downloads/D180059D.PDF


http://docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/13e7/0900766b813e7972.pdf



It turns out these 2 Halls are quite similar in properties and have the same shape. And since Fany of Kelly Controls told me to use 12v on Hall sensors for the C-3000 I wonder if these sensors were rated for a base voltage of 12v instead of the 5v normally supplied by ebike controllers. It turns out both sensor labels can handle about + or - 24vdc according to their manuals. And also see that they are rated to a max temp of 170C. The Hall sensors on the motor I burned up were still good by the static test --- reinstalled in another motor?

The Hall CB is held in place with 2 cable ties that loop through the inside of the 2 adjacent copper coil loops and run over the top of the CB plus the 3 Hall sensors sort of hold it in place. The 5 places where the sensor wires are lap soldered to the CB clean up quite easily but the removal of the 9 leads from the Halls can be done much easier with the CB removed from the motor. Removal of the Halls' lead wire ends from the CB is much easier done using desoldering wire as you will need the holes of the CB wide open clean to fit the new Halls. Between the Halls and CB are 3 black plastic trapezoid shaped lead channels that are worth reusing. The center lead had a oversized wire sheath on it that was reused.







I suspect the rust overpressured the original Hall sensors and caused them to fail so for this replacement I coated them and their slots with grease to prevent rust from forming here. Next the shrouds and central wire sheaths were installed and then the CB was fastened with 2 cable ties. The Honeywell Manual says no more than 3 sec of heating with the soldering iron. The iron was 40 watts -- it seemed almost too hot. I used plumbers soldering paste to reduce oxidation and get better heat conduction. The connection of the wires is: yellow to A, Blue to B, Green to C, Black to - neg and Red to + pos.

After the Halls sensors were installed the Kelly controller gave a green light meaning all was good to go but the motor would not turn. I then moved the benchtop auxiliary battery, throttle controller "tool" to the scene. The motor ran meaning the Honeywell sensors were fine -- meaning they were an okay substitution over the Microntas sensors. This lack of performance from the Kelly controller was either the Honeywells or the throttle and/or its wires to the controller. The throttle and its leads to the controller were fine. I put the old robust OEM C-3000 controller back on the bike and reduced the max battery voltage from LiPO 88.2volt to LiPO 84.0 volts to meet conditions as stipulated by what Luna Cycle says the nominal 72 v OEM C-3000 controller can handle.

I have not yet figured out whether the Kelly controller is toast but I like the OEM C-3000 throttle response better than all the programing options of throttle responses I tried using the Kelly programmable throttle setups. I do have a CA-V3 on this bike but have no throttle mods employed.

 

[robocam]

Are you saying you had to replace the hall sensors in your Cyclone 3000? Did you ever get it wet?

 

[robocam]

If you email Paco, he'll probably give them to you for free (plus shipping). He did for me.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&p=1224666#p1224666

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&hilit=radiator&start=1275#p1209434

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&hilit=radiator&start=1350#p1223294

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robocam,

yes I did replace the Halls on one my Cyclone-3000's.

If you email Paco, he'll probably give them to you for free (plus shipping). He did for me.

I did try to get the Halls and CB from while on a cell talk with Paco at SickBikeParts but he told me I would have to buy the motor to get that part --The latest? "they do not have them." Double standard?

The last motor I received from Paco & SickBikeParts, Inc had part of the red Hall wire missing and the loop on the 7 pin JST plug was not intact. Send it back? I told Paco about this faulty motor wiring and send photos of the wiring problem to him. He said he has sent the photos to Cyclone Taiwan. I am still waiting on a reply and am curious about what for them constitutes fair customer service.

My motor does not have a round CB like you show in the 1st link.

Yes, my motor showed having had some moisture like your 2nd link photo's shows. I was well aware even at the time of this posting of yours that moisture does get into this "sealed" motor case but my report above was the first instance of a Hall problem with any of my wet C-3000 motors.

I remember what you did for the water problem but with that all said it is quite easy to have greased the slots of the new Halls and to take the motor cover off overnight with bike inside the house to keep it warm for moisture evaporation after you get it wet. Like they say, "replacement parts won't" and the sealed motor still leaks.

I have replaced Halls on a few occasions long before this job and I still had some Honeywell Halls on hand. It is interesting to see our different approaches to our fixes.

 

[Pablo]

Robocam,

yes I did replace the Halls on one my Cyclone-3000's.

If you email Paco, he'll probably give them to you for free (plus shipping). He did for me.

I did try to get the Halls and CB from while on a cell talk with Paco at SickBikeParts but he told me I would have to buy the motor to get that part --The latest? "they do not have them." Double standard?

The last motor I received from Paco & SickBikeParts, Inc had part of the red Hall wire missing and the loop on the 7 pin JST plug was not intact. Send it back? I told Paco about this faulty motor wiring and send photos of the wiring problem to him. He said he has sent the photos to Cyclone Taiwan. I am still waiting on a reply and am curious about what for them constitutes fair customer service.

My motor does not have a round CB like you show in the 1st link.

Yes, my motor showed having had some moisture like your 2nd link photo's shows. I was well aware even at the time of this posting of yours that moisture does get into this "sealed" motor case but my report above was the first instance of a Hall problem with any of my wet C-3000 motors.

I remember what you did for the water problem but with that all said it is quite easy to have greased the slots of the new Halls and to take the motor cover off overnight with bike inside the house to keep it warm for moisture evaporation after you get it wet. Like they say, "replacement parts won't" and the sealed motor still leaks.

I have replaced Halls on a few occasions long before this job and I still had some Honeywell Halls on hand. It is interesting to see our different approaches to our fixes.

Whoa.....wait. Paco from Cyclone and Pablo from SBP (me) are NOT the same guy. We did talk. That is for sure.

1) I merely said we don't sell the hall PWB or have the sensors for sale. Never said we could not get them from Paco at Cyclone. I'm sure I can get them, but no demand.
2) I believe you got a funky motor, you sent me pictures and I sent them to Paco. All he said he would be on the look out. The interesting part is I offered to send you a new motor. That offer still stands.