new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[DingusMcGee]

gman1971

Dingus,

Wow.. didn't hold.... you say climbing hills? at what wattage? 100kW??

The roll pins held in torque shear but they do not have stops on them to keep the biggest chainring from moving sideways -- inward. And neither do the tight round pins that friction wise hold the things together. I did think there would be enough friction to hold things together with the 7 roll pins. But upon inspection after the hill workout the biggest charing had some space between it and it's clutcher cog. Roll pins do compress circumferentially unless a tight pin would be fitted to inside of them.

There is no clutcher cog to the inside of the biggest chainring. A clutcher cog to the inside of the biggest ring would take up valuable real estate for ever making a 9 speed cassette. Bolts bind things together which roll pins cannot do. The 4 chainring bolts are working fine. I just had to drill bigger holes in the 104mm BCD pattern.

 

[DingusMcGee]

gman1971

Wow, then you really must be going nuts with the off road... I've never bent the cogs... even going all out on accelerations etc, then the chainline is dead straight on the 36T cog for me as it is where I usually pivot around...

a description of when the ring bending can occur:

When you are riding big rocks and making pick a path choices invariably you will do some head walling. Headwalling is when you hit a big rock that has a very steep face and some height. Sometimes you are in position where you can upload the front end by pulling up on the handlebars to lessen the impact. Usually before headwalling you give the motor max throttle. All this is usually fine as far as the chainring is concerned.

But occasionally just before head walling the rear wheel goes in a hole deep enough to nearly bottom out the rear suspension. When this happens there is very little chain length slack available to lessen the shock loading occurring when the motor rotational inertia is tensioned against the headwall. Hartail bikes are notorious for chain & belt problem failures when put in a situation of severe shock loading due to headwalling as there is no give in the chain length through [ lack of ] rear suspension. So severe chain forces cannot be dissipated whatsoever when you have no rear shock/spring travel as de facto in a hardtail.

Sometimes an immediate back off on the throttle can save you but you likely will not continue in motion along your pick a path choice and just come to a stop. NO FUN

 

[minimum]

The cyclone OTOH might be a great candidate to use ATF in the planetary gearbox to reduce friction and quiet it down... thoughts?

My only concerns would be compatibility with those nylon gears and possible leakage.
While it would be relatively simple to seal sun ring with automotive silicone (AKA "gasket maker"), there is no easy way to top it leaking through bearing. Other direction, toward motor windings is even more open.

 

[DingusMcGee]

minimum » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:54 am

gman1971 wrote:
The cyclone OTOH might be a great candidate to use ATF in the planetary gearbox to reduce friction and quiet it down... thoughts?

My only concerns would be compatibility with those nylon gears and possible leakage.
While it would be relatively simple to seal sun ring with automotive silicone (AKA "gasket maker"), there is no easy way to top it leaking through bearing. Other direction, toward motor windings is even more open.

Automatic car transmissions have seals independent of their bearings. These end seals looks much better than the OEM Cyclone bearings' type of seal. Some of the AT seals are spring loaded and have several groves and leak catch zones for what may get past the seal.

 

[Alex07]

Postby DingusMcGee » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:45 am

gman,

Sooo... do you also happen to have the planetary gear bearing dimensions too?


Those planetary bearing are greasy as Hell ileuia -- blue grease and stuck in the nylon planet gears. I would strongly advise replacing the nylon gears and bearings if that is the material on your setup is nylon as some of the nylon teeth on mine have broken off and the assembly came to a screeching halt [on mud]. I was able to back up the bike and eventually get the bike to roll forward again. The planet assembly made a slightly louder whine with teeth missing. There were teeth missing on all three gears and parts of them were off on the side line of action but stuck in the blue grease globs.

But if you must have the dimensions I can clean one up.

How many Kms did you run your C3000w at what power/ voltage until the plastic planetary gears broke ? this seems to be coming a more common problem? someone else posted same thing recently:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87790&p=1282208#p1282208

 

[robocam]

Gman has his trike up to 7k miles now, running up to 90A x 72V =~ 6500W.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=2100#p1302078

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&p=1223967#p1223967

I think one possible issue with Dingus' setup is that his mount is too stiff. One user on the Fast Electric Bike Facebook group posted that he made a really stiff steel mount for his Cyclone, which resulted in more broken motor-to-crankset chains. This could also mean that more shock-loading is being transmitted to the gears.

That user in the link you gave damaged his Cyclone with water. He probably has one or more fried hall sensors.

The gears in the Cyclone are tried and true. Even Sick Bike Parts claims that no one has worn them out.

How many Kms did you run your C3000w at what power/ voltage until the plastic planetary gears broke ? this seems to be coming a more common problem? someone else posted same thing recently:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87790&p=1282208#p1282208

 

[gman1971]

Yes, I have 7k miles in one trike and ~1.3k on the other one, but not a single one of these miles is doing hard offroading like what Dingus described in his post. I've gone up the trails even with some thick gravel, but haven't gone up rock climbing with the trike (almost impossible to do anyways) so I suspect part of the problem is usage pattern. And while I've done my fair share of 0-60 runs and did put a lot of stress on the whole thing, the wheel never got caught stuck and went from 60-0 in a dime... effectively that is the description of a crash... Also the trike is steel, and very long, with a very long chain (x3 114 chains to be exact) , so there is plenty of room for things to flex too... so I see validity on Robocam's theory of too stiff and no give anywhere... but who knows...

G.

 

[gman1971]

minimum » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:54 am

gman1971 wrote:
The cyclone OTOH might be a great candidate to use ATF in the planetary gearbox to reduce friction and quiet it down... thoughts?

My only concerns would be compatibility with those nylon gears and possible leakage.
While it would be relatively simple to seal sun ring with automotive silicone (AKA "gasket maker"), there is no easy way to top it leaking through bearing. Other direction, toward motor windings is even more open.

Automatic car transmissions have seals independent of their bearings. These end seals looks much better than the OEM Cyclone bearings' type of seal. Some of the AT seals are spring loaded and have several groves and leak catch zones for what may get past the seal.

Yes, and I was suggesting a partial fill, not sink the whole thing, just enough to keep the gears always lubed and potentially cut the whine down and the temps...

G.

 

[minimum]

Yes, and I was suggesting a partial fill, not sink the whole thing, just enough to keep the gears always lubed and potentially cut the whine down and the temps...

Obviously. But even with partial fill while doing several thousand rpm's and getting bumps from the road, that thing is more or less floating around in gearbox like in Zero-G environment. So sooner or later it will find its way to motor housing and through bearing seals (which are not designed to keep low viscosity fluids in, as Dingus pointed out) to outside.
Inside motor housing it may not be a bad thing (as ATF has been used in hubmotors) if care has been taken by coating windings, hall sensors/PCB and properly sealing incoming wires.
I wonder whether has anyone used ATF in geared hubmotors (do those low powered ones use plastic gears?) and what were the results.

 

[RolluS]

Hello guys,

Here are some progress.

My programmable controller has soft acceleration parameter, so I may not stretch/broke everything...

I'm still waiting for the motor..

 

[sather]

I have bent 3 Sunrace 11-42 cassettes. One alloy, two steel. I have never bent a Wolftooth 42. This is on a fat bike which has a bad chain line, even with the Cyclone.

 

[scoobydrew]

Hi all, I've now received my cyclone kit and am about to start the install. My kit has a different bracket on the non-drive - this is bent to pick up on the outermost bolts, rather than being straight. I guess that this addresses some of the inherent flexibility issues with the original mount but does it still need additional reinforcement? If so does anyone have a design?

For info, my bike will primarily be used for on road duty so I probably don't need massive brackets.

Many thanks.

 

[gman1971]

Hi all, I've now received my cyclone kit and am about to start the install. My kit has a different bracket on the non-drive - this is bent to pick up on the outermost bolts, rather than being straight. I guess that this addresses some of the inherent flexibility issues with the original mount but does it still need additional reinforcement? If so does anyone have a design?

For info, my bike will primarily be used for on road duty so I probably don't need massive brackets.

Many thanks.

I don't know how the new bracket will work, most ppl here have done some mods to improve the holding power of the old one, so perhaps that bracket is better... and there is no need to do anything to make it stronger

G.

 

[robocam]

Awesome =) I just bought another one too. Make sure you watch the video on how to install it so that you use the right holes. What width is your bottom bracket shell? It should not need additional reinforcement because the brackets hold both ends of the motor, not allowing it to rotate. Make sure you post pictures =)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G99tNdeZa0g

Hi all, I've now received my cyclone kit and am about to start the install. My kit has a different bracket on the non-drive - this is bent to pick up on the outermost bolts, rather than being straight. I guess that this addresses some of the inherent flexibility issues with the original mount but does it still need additional reinforcement? If so does anyone have a design?

For info, my bike will primarily be used for on road duty so I probably don't need massive brackets.

Many thanks.

 

[robocam]

So here's what I did with my latest Cyclone 3000 from Luna =) I didn't use the included brackets to mount it because honestly, I didn't like them, but they are an improvement (over the stock non-reinforced brackets) if you're planning to mount it under the triangle.

This time, I wanted to mount it in the triangle for maximum ground clearance, so the included bracket was perfect for use as a template to make a side plate. I've since painted everything black, so it looks much better now. I'll have to make a new video when I put it all together. The brackets are the old style, and I purchased them from Sick Bike Parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKW7v9uMKJc

Gman, I soldered the shunt :lol: We'll have to see what happens! Thanks for the idea!

 

[CobraJet]

Wow, really nice job!

BTW, what frame are you using?

 

[robocam]

Thanks! The frame is from a Specialized Enduro 29. It has 6" of rear travel.

Wow, really nice job!

BTW, what frame are you using?

 

[gman1971]

Wow, nice Rob, and enjoy the newly found powah! And depending on how much shunt solder you added, you can add from 10 to 50 more amps, the controller will cutout after 90A, at least mine does when exceeding 6.5 kW.

So here's what I did with my latest Cyclone 3000 from Luna =) I didn't use the included brackets to mount it because honestly, I didn't like them, but they are an improvement (over the stock non-reinforced brackets) if you're planning to mount it under the triangle.

This time, I wanted to mount it in the triangle for maximum ground clearance, so the included bracket was perfect for use as a template to make a side plate. I've since painted everything black, so it looks much better now. I'll have to make a new video when I put it all together. The brackets are the old style, and I purchased them from Sick Bike Parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKW7v9uMKJc

Gman, I soldered the shunt :lol: We'll have to see what happens! Thanks for the idea!

 

[MBV]

I have now put about 200km on the bike with C3000 motor and the phaserunner. Peak power is about 2800w according to the ca3 (14s 18650 battery) peak current is 60A. The bike is described in this post https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=2125#p1303782


But I have not succeeded to get the phaserunner to recognize the hall sensors. I have replaced the oem ones to Honeywell ones. I have tried putting pull up resistors on them but still no luck. Any body succeeded running the C3000 motor in sensored mode with the phaserunner?

 

[robocam]

I just came across this today. They have a few hub motors with 75mm axles.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/motors.html?limit=all

...Hub motor has been tried but because the axle length is really short, it won't fit unless I find a 75mm hub motor.

 

[robocam]

That's good to hear. I've always been surprised at how strong my Wolftooth 42T (and now my OneUp 50T) has been. That's why I asked Dingus if he's tried them, but maybe he didn't see the message.

I have bent 3 Sunrace 11-42 cassettes. One alloy, two steel. I have never bent a Wolftooth 42. This is on a fat bike which has a bad chain line, even with the Cyclone.

 

[gman1971]

That's good to hear. I've always been surprised at how strong my Wolftooth 42T (and now my OneUp 50T) has been. That's why I asked Dingus if he's tried them, but maybe he didn't see the message.

I have bent 3 Sunrace 11-42 cassettes. One alloy, two steel. I have never bent a Wolftooth 42. This is on a fat bike which has a bad chain line, even with the Cyclone.

Problem with those Wolftooth is they chew up rather fast, even with low torque/high RPM operation one of these only lasted about ~1800 miles, vs ~5000 on a 42T Sunrace steel cog.

I am considering ditching the derrailleur altogether and going IGH, any thoughts on this? I was thinking the Alfine 8?

G.

 

[robocam]

1800 miles is fast? hehe...I hardly ever use my climbing gear. Do you use your low gear a lot?

Problem with those Wolftooth is they chew up rather fast, even with low torque/high RPM operation one of these only lasted about ~1800 miles, vs ~5000 on a 42T Sunrace steel cog...

G.

 

[gman1971]

1800 miles is fast? hehe...I hardly ever use my climbing gear. Do you use your low gear a lot?

Problem with those Wolftooth is they chew up rather fast, even with low torque/high RPM operation one of these only lasted about ~1800 miles, vs ~5000 on a 42T Sunrace steel cog...

G.

Well, when you commute to work and drive it everywhere like a car then 1800 miles go rather quick... I also had a lot of 11-13% grade long hills on my former commute, but the steel cog with less teeth handled it better...

G.

 

[MarkLeeds]

I have now put about 200km on the bike with C3000 motor and the phaserunner. Peak power is about 2800w according to the ca3 (14s 18650 battery) peak current is 60A. The bike is described in this post https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=2125#p1303782



But I have not succeeded to get the phaserunner to recognize the hall sensors. I have replaced the oem ones to Honeywell ones. I have tried putting pull up resistors on them but still no luck. Any body succeeded running the C3000 motor in sensored mode with the phaserunner?

I really like the look of the phase runner particularly the size but am not parting with any hard earned until I see some evidence of one working with a cyclone. Maybe some at grin will see the post and help you out