new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[DingusMcGee]

I've never understood the importance of ebrakes when you have hydraulics and a mid drive. Yes I do with a hub motor, but all that hassle to stop the mid drive motor when it's on a freewheel?

Suppose you quickly pull the bakes and do not have ebrake switches but you pull the brakes without releasing the throttle. Freewheels or not [there are 3 of them], they stay engaged if the motor is turning fast enough to keep them engaged and its power goes to the wheel. And since you have pulled the brakes the motor is now running faster than the wheels and thus all the while, while braking, the motor is actively working to keep you going at the throttle setting you hold and you are actively using the brakes to slow yourself down. It is kind of a waste of battery energy and wears out brake pads sooner. I suppose with hydraulics, big rotors and not a very big motor[c-3000] you can compensate for having no ebrake switches and the motor running the wheel by pulling harder on the brake handles when you want to stop.

If you have ebrake switches the throttle signal is set to zero as soon as the switch closes from the brake handle action and the motor is no longer powered.

I disconnect my ebrake switches when riding uphill-steep technical terrain. But I prefer them in town.

 

[le15otl]

When I have my bike it a low gear on max rpm and squeeze my shimano hydraulic brakes the wheel keeps moving- I actually couldn't stop the motor! So much torque. So yeah it's safer to have ebrakes but it's not needed. I ought to get some ..

 

[Mammalian04]

When I have my bike it a low gear on max rpm and squeeze my shimano hydraulic brakes the wheel keeps moving- I actually couldn't stop the motor! So much torque. So yeah it's safer to have ebrakes but it's not needed. I ought to get some ..

Not the best situation. Just make sure to have a kill switch or something else to kill throttle handy. I probably need to do the same thing. Reaching for my key switch on the frame would probably be too late and would require taking hands off the bars in an already rapidly escalating situation of runaway throttle.

 

[juanfeli]

I may be wrong, but I think that all Cyclone throttles come with ignition switch.

 

[RageNR]

Yeah, I honestly don't get the e-brake thing either. I can see where it would be beneficial, like with a twist throttle or cruise control.
But if you have a thumb throttle, why would you need a e-brake? I would think that pushing the throttle with you thumb whilst trying to pull the brake lever would pose enough challenge.
Does the Cyclone have that much delay when you release the throttle?

What an e-brake does provide is peace of mind. No worries about being sure you are off the go pedal in the moment of a panic event.
For those of us that are super attentive, I do not see much benefit in them. But even those of us with GOD like reflexes can be caught off guard at times.

As for protecting your e-brake switches... I would think you could fashion up a bash guard of sorts out of a sheet of metal. Anything to deflect direct impact.
My idea would be to find a way to mount the switch within the brake handle. I'll see what I can figure out when my kit gets here.


EDIT: Whether e-brakes are needed or not.. When you are expecting something to function in a certain manner, and it suddenly fails at the worst moment, THAT is a dangerous situation.

 

[le15otl]

Yeah I guess if the ebrake isn't very reliable itself it could end up being more dangerous due to the reliance.
I have the battery XT90 just over my shoulder so can just yank it out if anything goes wrong.

 

[spinningmagnets]

A friend of Darren Eclairs (cheekybloke) was test riding his LR kit. He applied the brakes and the throttle at the same time. The freewheel broke. I have also heard of throttles (on rare occasions) sticking in the WOT position, however...it's never happened to me.

 

[juanfeli]

The red wire has to connect with the main battery positive but I can't remember where the battery voltage wires go. And the 3 throttle wires on the controller red black and green can be connected to any 5v throttle. (red being positive 5v, black being ground, and green being the throttle signal)
It's hard to describe from the picture

Edit
I'm not using the cyclone controller and throttle anymore so maybe someone else is better helping

To connect the CA3 I used the Grin Shunt with the attached diagram. I just have to connect the green throttle cable of the shunt with the green throttle cable of the controller. Pretty straightforward. I didn’t use the Yellow cable (speed-hall sensor) as the speed comes from the magnet in the front wheel.

But would be a great idea to connect the yellow one if the CA would be able to show the motor rpm and at the same time the bike speed.

So far the only cables that goes from the handlebar to the controller are the CA3 one and the 3 Speed switch. Pretty clean and it could be even more, connecting a three speed switch directly to the CA3.

About the CA3, I like it a lot especially the LVC. Other additional feature that I like is the throttle indicator when you have PassThru throttle parameter because it gives me a more or less a graphic interpretation of motor rpm. There are plenty of more features to play with the CA3

The main reason to buy the CA3 was to install a temp sensor in the motor. But it stuck in my head something that I read here. The best for overheating is no produce heat and so far I haven’t overheat my motor because I have followed G advise about keep the rev up. Hopefully I’ll install a temp sensor one day.
For me the three speed sensor is a must. I use it like this 1st: Civilize, 2nd:Economy and 3rd: Turbo.

Is it imperative to have the CA3 o a 3 speed switch with a Cyclone kit? No.As it comes will be plenty of fun but you can do a lot more with them.

 

[RageNR]

spinningmagnets made a good point. Throttle sticking could become hazardous situation. If you have a throttle withOUT an on/off switch, then e-brake would most definitely be a wise investment.

Here is another thought that might help out the DIYers that want a cheap set of e-brakes. The bike I recently purchased came with one of those cheapo MPH displays. Pretty sure that is a hall sensor in those.
Since my display portion of the system is broken, might as well and get some use out of the sensor.
That could be a quick/easy/cheap DIY e-brake waiting to happen, no?

 

[DingusMcGee]

Brake Handle Bounce: Some times with magnetic ebrake switches the brakes handles do not fully return to shut off the ebrake action of no throttle response. This incomplete return is a nuisance in traffic and most other places where you want power immediately. Additionally upon fast take off the brake handle can move from no ebrake on to ebrake on and cause a false start.

Rather than undo the J & B weld of the magnet or loosen the super mount tape holding the reed switch and try for an ebrake action that comes on latter in the handle pulling cycle I have added a strong return spring.




Adding the spring has stopped all brake handle bounce at the accelerations I do.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Luna Cycle sells the C-3000 OEM controller for $49.++. It seems quite durable and can work at nominal 72 v for some yet undetermined amount of time. You know such action gman71 has warned us about capacitor overvolting? I purchased this controller and added it to an old hub motor bike whose controller was getting so the bike had to set some time after charging before the units [capacitors?] powered up. There were ways to short this waiting time by bouncing the power switch on and off and next powering it up before the wheel turning uses up the stored capacitor charge -- precise timing of throttle, power switch.



At 52 volts the high speed wind motor on the flat with no wind no petaling can hit 42 mph. And it groans taking off -- not a high torque motor. The undesirable feature of the controller for a hub motor vs. what it does when used as mid drive controller is that when the ebrakes are actuated the motor is either put in parking brake mode or a very high % of regen braking. I could avoid this ebrake regen problem [especially while cornering] by disconnecting the ebrake wires to the controller. But to still have the ebake disconnect send their signal to an SSR [ solid state relay] that would sever throttle connections to the controller when the brakes are used.

The OEM controllers ebrake action to seize the motors rpm when mounted on a mid drive is desirable as the motor inertia effect is not added to turning the wheel when you pull the ebrake. I also have a Lyen controller driving the LR- SM Block motor but it does not seize the motors turning when applying the ebrake.

 

[RageNR]

I think you two (Dingus and Gman) need to lay off each other. Gman was not wrong with what he was saying, and neither are you. I think he was just trying to warn users that there is potential risk.
And that's good. We have other people reading these forums, and we do not want to give them false expectations.
You have also made very good points, along with your personal experience. State what you have or know, and let that speak for itself. Same goes for Gman. Let's be nice to one another.

Thank's for the update and info on your setup. The spring on the brake may not be the sleekest solution, but it works.
Personally for me, I go by the 80/20 rule. 80% function 20% aesthetics. Don't care too much about the looks as long as it works well. Looks is just a bonus. If making it look nice hinders more than 20% of the function, I will not do it.

I think the controller will be alright for a while at 84v charged. Longer if you are not harsh on the throttle all the time.
Just keep in mind that we are operating outside the set parameters. Expect earlier failure and be ready to deal with it. Nuff said...

 

[DingusMcGee]

RageNR,

you ain't my mother. But you act like it.

Just keep in mind that we are operating outside the set parameters

You don't know this.

The controller was specified to work 48v - 72. Is this rating nominal or the actual max voltage? I suspect if it was the actual max voltage the c-3000 instructions would say 72 v absolute max instead of 48v - 72v. A nominal 72 v Li-ion battery may have about 84.+ volts at max permitted charge. The other mistake gman made is that he assumed the capacitor sees the same voltage as battery's maximum voltage -- He did no testing with leads from the capacitor to a multimeter -- real science he did, isn't.

The calculated derating for a capacitor operating at 84v for an 80v rated capacitor is 48%. Now, if they last 10,000 hrs at rated voltage you still have one hell of a lot of butt time at just 4800 hr.

And you call this a warning? -- maybe a gman type warning -- of little worth.

What good was the gman warning -- totally vague.

As you say:

we do not want to give them false expectations.

Hence the criticism of gamn's methodology

 

[RageNR]

you ain't my mother. But you act like it.

You don't have to take offence to everything bro. I did not punch you in the gut, just made a suggestion. Let's try to get along. That's all I ask.
Constructive criticism is perfectly fine.

RageNR,
Just keep in mind that we are operating outside the set parameters

You don't know this.

Actually we do. Whether or not the controller specs are for charged or nominal voltage, the caps themselves have 80v rating. Electronics are only as strong as the weakest link in the chain. If another component inside is rated 72v, that would be the most probable part to give out first. You agree, yes?

Granted 4v over 80 is not a lot, but the extra heat generated will degrade the caps at a faster rate. That is the #1 most common failure of capacitors. The heat up and dry out, and sometimes vent.
I've replaced a LOT of boards in 10yrs in package units and other equipment. Heat is almost always the cause of failure.

We can't tell people its ok to ignore the ratings. Will it work for a time? Yeah, probably. You could run you car on isopropyl alcohol, and it would perform better for a while. Does not mean it is a good idea.
You would also be voiding the warranty. Not that WE care, but others might.

By all means, please keep up the testing. I will add what data I can once I get to that point. I am currently only running 33.3v on my build. Still reading up and making decisions for my 84v(72) pack.
I am going to be posting some details to my build thread tonight, and some more tomorrow. Ran into a few issues.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Low-ESR rated 100V capacitors are really cheap...maybe $2 each? Why trust generic Chinese 80V capacitors at 84V, just because you tried it a few times, and the controller didn't immediately die?

Do as you wish, but if I was going to use a battery that was 4.2V X 20S = 84V when fully charged...I'd swap-in 100V capacitors just for the fun of it.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Spinning Magnets,

just because you tried it a few times,

Thats an understatement. I have taken the FSR bike with the C-3000 controller and the 84 v max battery on the most difficult unmaintained ATV trails around here. They are rock strewn bolder fields bands where incessant path picking is a must. I ride in shorts on hot days. On the Laramie Peak Summit Trail the [ambient 82F] controller got so hot [ its on the top tube] that I would get a knee jerk reaction outward when my knee bumped it. About 60% up the climb I found a snow patch near the trail and cooled it. After passing that first snow drift the peak trail had occasional water on the trail to cool it. It's is almost 3000' in 4.1 miles.

Agreed, it is likely all Chinese junk. The 100v capacitor swap does sound like a fun project.

But I see at the Dig-i-Key site under data for the capacitor that you suggest: Height - Seated (Max) 1.654" (42.00mm) at Dig-i-Key.

Measuring outside screw head to outside screw head on the width of the case is 1.53" . There may be room for this capacitor laying sideways? It cannot fit up right unless you cut a hole in the top of the case. And BTW for sake of RageNR, this height discrepancy detection arose by taking measurements before laying out the $, cheap or not.

How did you get it to fit?

Would you use bismuth solder for such an over solder? Melt 134C.

 

[DingusMcGee]

RageNR,

Actually we do

and then for your reason you say,

the caps themselves have 80v rating

No, I see you do get this idea of testing in the field before hand to see whether the condition of exceeding 80v actually exists at those capacitor sites when using the 84v battery. That the caps get more than 80v is your uninformed assumption. We do not know what the voltage is there until someone tests what the voltage is at that locality. We have no hard experimental data to say we are exceeding 80v until someone makes that test.

I don't know, maybe you cannot grasp this idea of testing before hand?

 

[Esting]

A cheap Chinese 80V capacitor is rated at +/- 20% that 80v capacitor may be good for 96v

 

[spinningmagnets]

DingusMcgee,

Do as you wish

 

[RageNR]

No, I see you do get this idea of testing in the field before hand to see whether the condition of exceeding 80v actually exists at those capacitor sites when using the 84v battery. That the caps get more than 80v is your uninformed assumption. We do not know what the voltage is there until someone tests what the voltage is at that locality. We have no hard experimental data to say we are exceeding 80v until someone makes that test.

I don't know, maybe you cannot grasp this idea of testing before hand?

Yes, I do agree with testing before making a broad claim. Did I say the 80v caps can NOT handle anything above 80v? No, I believe I did not. What I did say is that it is outside the printed parameters and "at your own risk". Why are we arguing the obvious here?
It does not matter what the caps will actually handle. If you run the system outside the specs, you are voiding the warranty. Sure, you could claim that you were running within the specs to get your product replaced/covered, but that would be dishonest and damage the business for everyone else. When false warranty claims keep hammering away at the seller, they are forced to raise prices or neglect parts of the warranty. EM3ev anyone?

So we CAN NOT tell people it is ok. What we can say is that HAS worked for us, and that it can be done if you accept the risks involved. What is there to argue?


Anyways, you mentioned how hot your controller got while riding the trails. You do realize that you are admitting to stressing the components, right?
Those caps WILL fail sooner with higher heat loads. No question about it. Few caps get blown by a sudden surge or voltage spike. Almost all other caps fail because the get hot and vent, or dry out.
I've worked on a lot of varying commercial equipment in 10yrs time. Almost all the bad caps I have found were due to heat stress. Somewhere between 80-90% of all cases. And there have been A LOT in my personal experience.
I don't care what voltage you are feeding them. The heat is what will kill them. Higher voltage usually means more heat. Completely logical.


EDIT: Oh, and just so you know... cooling electronics quickly can fracture traces or solder joints. Putting something cold on the exterior of the aluminum controller casing may not cause ill effect, but it is possible. Just keep that in mind.
Carrying a spare controller around with you while out on the trials is not a bad idea. The added weight is negligible. I will be doing that for sure if I go deep into the woods.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Carrying a spare controller around with you while out on the [trails] is not a bad idea. The added weight is negligible.

Yes, I can agree with the above idea but my bike has petals and generally I start at lowest elevation on trail rides, so a spare controller would not save me much grief if I had to petal. I might get home in the dark! If I had no spare controller to use as a replacement when I got home I might get one to save the wait of the delivery of the new one.

 

[DingusMcGee]

SpinningMags,

you quoted me

Do as you wish

Generally I do, but only after some reasoning and cross checking of the available data to cover where others might not have done their homework.

Oh and BTW, thanks for not doing your homework on the physical size of the 100v capacitor you graciously linked us to a little earlier on this thread.

 

[DingusMcGee]

There is another disconcerting feature of using the ebrake switch connected to the C-3000 controller on difficult [steep] terrain. It happens when one is at the tipping point of getting flipped backwards on a wheelie like bounce off a rock where the front end goes high. With normal mt bike brakes you can let off the rear brake and the bike & rear wheel go backwards down the hill letting the front drop.

Well, the C-3000 controller with the ebrake switch on/active will not allow the motor to turn and the rear wheel cannot turn backwards as when backing up [brakes off] the rear wheel does turn the motor. The delay time between releasing the mechanical brake grip on the wheel and the ebrake switch going off causing the controller to release its grip [park lock] on the motor can prevent one from doing a forward recovery soon enough, like on a mountain bike when you get high front end lift from a bounce on a hill.

Preventing this locking action of the motor can be done by connecting the ebrake signal to an
SSR that cuts off the throttle signal and one must also disconnect the ebake signal going directly to the controller.

 

[spinningmagnets]

My apologies. I must confess that I don't have a Cyclone 3000W controller to measure. If anyone does wish to upgrade their controller to 100V low-ESR capacitors, you would do well to take DingusMcgee's advice, and shop until you find a model that is small enough to fit.

 

[RageNR]

You are fine bro. Nothing wrong with the replacement caps you linked. It they are too tall to mount upright, you can mount them on their side.
No ill effects unless they bump into something else or the exposed leads touched something. Just make sure when you mount a cap sideways, use a dab of high temp goop to secure it to the board.
Just a bit. Don't need to glue the whole thing down. Just enough to keep the cap from vibrating and breaking the leads or solder.