new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[Apex]

So I have been doing some test fittings of the 3000w cyclone motor on an old cro-moly Giant Yukon. This frame has a generous area inside the triangle and the angle of the corner at the bottom bracket is obtuse enough to allow me to mount the motor inside the frame. I really like the idea of this, no motor to catch on logs or curbs, and the position should allow me easily avoid mount flex by laser cutting a delrin "saddle", inside the triangle.

My question is, what are the downsides of such a mount position?

The only drawback I can see as possible is increased stress on the bottom bracket bearings and the chainring freewheel bearing, if at all.
My rational for this concern is that when the motor is mounted in front of the BB, the tension caused by the two chains at the chaining may cancel each other out in a small way. If I mount the motor above the BB then the tensional stresses will no longer be 180 degrees apart, but rather only 90 degrees apart.

Is this a major concern? I can upgrade the freewheel with the Sick Bike Parts heavy duty crank freewheel and an ISIS bottom bracket to avoid premature destruction. I would gladly do this to keep all the mechanicals inside the triangle.

Please post up your thoughts on this, or any other concerns I should be aware of, if any.

 

[Skaiwerd]

Apex

I have been riding and testing my in frame cyclone Ebike all summer without any major issue. I hit it hard from the beach to wooded trails. I do feel occasional resistance at the crank freewheel so...with the kit flywheel. I've been trying to get oil in it. I'm doing it differently than your setup but generally I'd recommend going In frame if frame will allow for it. Lower the better with the heavy stuff as learned here on Es. In frame keeps the front end lighter which is working for me very well.

Rob

 

[Apex]

That's good to hear, Rob.
Are you on the cyclone provided bottom bracket, or an upgraded one?
I will definately can see that I will need to fabricate a chain guard for the motor output with it in that position.

 

[sather]

Sick Bike Parts sells one for $20

"Motor cover for 3000W motor [SBP-EMC001]"
http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=240
They are great to deal with. Fast service.

 

[Apex]

Tried installing the chain side crank arm 4 times, the chainring won't spin true. They wander about 3/16ths of an inch!
When I stop the pedal and spin the freewheel they spin true, but when I spin the crank they go all wonky.
So, it's either the machining on the crank arm, or the crank shaft is bent.
I gue

 

[Apex]

Tried installing the chain side crank arm 4 times, the chainring won't spin true. They wander about 3/16ths of an inch!
When I stop the pedal and spin the freewheel they spin true, but when I spin the crank they go all wonky.
So, it's either the machining on the crank arm, or the crank shaft is bent.
I guess I will tear it all down and start swapping in stock crank parts to figure out what cyclone part is bad.

 

[sather]

Try a different right crank arm. Then a different bottom bracket. I had to go to an ISIS bb and crank arms to get rid of the problem. But the ISIS crank just barely clears the left side of the motor.

 

[robocam]

Are you using those black spacers that aren't flat? Try removing them to see if the problem goes away. If it does, get Wheels Manufacturing 1mm spacers.

Is your chain falling off because of it?

Tried installing the chain side crank arm 4 times, the chainring won't spin true. They wander about 3/16ths of an inch!
When I stop the pedal and spin the freewheel they spin true, but when I spin the crank they go all wonky.
So, it's either the machining on the crank arm, or the crank shaft is bent.
I guess I will tear it all down and start swapping in stock crank parts to figure out what cyclone part is bad.

 

[Apex]

Are you using those black spacers that aren't flat? Try removing them to see if the problem goes away. If it does, get Wheels Manufacturing 1mm spacers.

Is your chain falling off because of it?

Are you referring to this guy?

Or these (below)
These "spacers" that are used in my kit are nuts, kinda cheap, but I don't think there are the problem, I can see the wobble at the freewheel flange that the chainrings mount to.

I have not fitted the chains yet.
I swapped the bikes original crank arm onto the cyclone BB, and it's front sprockets spun true.

I will disassemble the whole unit tomorrow check spacers and washer with micrometers and check runout on bottom bracket.

Honestly, the problem doesn't seem to be so bad that it would throw a chain, but I will know tomorrow if this is something I can fix or if I will have to call Sick Bike Parts about it.

 

[robocam]

The ones in the first picture. I've had some get smashed on one side. I can't think of how to explain it, but because they're not flat, and since the crank isn't threaded all the way to the arm, they can sit in a way where the thinner part is all that's supporting the load, so when the freewheel gets tight against them, the thinner side causes the the chainring to be at an angle.

See how this spacer wasn't centered?

See how the flat surface of the spacer is now curved?

Another issue is those thick aluminum spacers that go between the outer chainring and the inner chainring. They're not always the same thickness, so you might want to check the thickness of those. They look like they're handmade. I checked with calipers, and I was shocked that there was so much variation (maybe up to 1mm!).

But despite the wobbly chainrings, I've never had a chain fall off because of that, so I wouldn't worry too much about it unless you're having problems. I'm using an ISIS bottom bracket too.

Are you using those black spacers that aren't flat? Try removing them to see if the problem goes away. If it does, get Wheels Manufacturing 1mm spacers.

Is your chain falling off because of it?

Are you referring to this guy?

Or these (below)
These "spacers" that are used in my kit are nuts, kinda cheap, but I don't think there are the problem, I can see the wobble at the freewheel flange that the chainrings mount to.

I have not fitted the chains yet.
I swapped the bikes original crank arm onto the cyclone BB, and it's front sprockets spun true.

I will disassemble the whole unit tomorrow check spacers and washer with micrometers and check runout on bottom bracket.

Honestly, the problem doesn't seem to be so bad that it would throw a chain, but I will know tomorrow if this is something I can fix or if I will have to call Sick Bike Parts about it.

 

[Apex]

Thanks for the heads up.
I'll go through it all, see what's up.

 

[sather]

I recently installed (epoxied) a Cycle Analyst temperature probe to the windings of my Cyclone 3000. I also installed another temperature probe on the outside of the motor directly adjacent to the internal probe. The results were unsettling. Yesterday doing a steady climb at approximately 3000W (67V x 43.5amps), I got the internal probe up to 112C (233F). While the external probe only read 29C (85F). I have been advised by both Grin Tech and the Cyclone dealer that 120C could harm the motor. Today, I did the same climb with a 52v battery (58v x 43.5amps) and the motor barely got to 70C internal.
My conclusion is that the Cyclone 3000 can not take a steady diet of 3KW. If you are going to run above 3 KW, you had better install an internal temperature gauge and keep a close eye on it. The external temperature probe is a waste of time. You will damage your motor before it shows any significant rise.
BTW: The Cyclone is quieter at 52 volts.

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

I recently installed (epoxied) a Cycle Analyst temperature probe to the windings of my Cyclone 3000. I also installed another temperature probe on the outside of the motor directly adjacent to the internal probe. The results were unsettling. Yesterday doing a steady climb at approximately 3000W (67V x 43.5amps), I got the internal probe up to 112C (233F). While the external probe only read 29C (85F).

That's good information. How long (timewise) did you spend on that climb at 67V x 43.5amps? What was the approximate motor RPM based on your gearing (ie were you spinning in a low gear, or pushing hard on a higher gear?)

 

[Apex]

Hi Guys, very interested in this motor and am currently sourcing a doner bike. I was thinking of a specialized enduro (similar to stump jumper) but am concerned about the durability of the chainstays if I run the motor at 3000w. I plan to use the bike to to train for enduro races I do on my ktm motorcycle. I'd like to keep the motor inside the frame triangle as I plan to ride logs and rocks alot. Maybe a giant glory with a reservoirless air shock and custom motor mount would be better. Some words of wisdom would be really great - am very new to this. Thanks in advance.

Here ya go.

Here is my cyclone motor mounted inside the triangle, stock mounts with no modifications. This is just a test fit, but I see no issues with it.

 

[sather]

see below

 

[sather]

"That's good information. How long (timewise) did you spend on that climb at 67V x 43.5amps? What was the approximate motor RPM based on your gearing (ie were you spinning in a low gear, or pushing hard on a higher gear?)

Yes, I was abusing the Cyclone. I was riding illegally so I was running a higher gear (lower rpms) to try keep the Cyclone noise down. I have no idea what rpm the motor was at. The whole climb was less than 10 minutes. I plan to use the 52 volt battery from now on. It had plenty of power at 52 volts, took the same abuse and did not overheat.
Point of the post: How warm the outside of the motor feels to the touch has nothing to do with how hot the motor windings are.

 

[robocam]

Thanks for reporting the results of your experiment. Did you attach the probe on the outside the same way you did on the inside? Is the outside probe on the case of the motor where the fins are?

What was the outside temperature when the inside probe read 70C on 52V?

Could you post a picture of the probe on the outside? I'm curious about what it looks like.

What's the difference in fun factor between the 2 voltages? I've been thinking about going up to 74V from 52 (20s3p vs 14s4p), but if the gains are marginal, I may stick with 52V. Is the acceleration significantly different?

What battery configuration did you use?

I recently installed (epoxied) a Cycle Analyst temperature probe to the windings of my Cyclone 3000. I also installed another temperature probe on the outside of the motor directly adjacent to the internal probe. The results were unsettling. Yesterday doing a steady climb at approximately 3000W (67V x 43.5amps), I got the internal probe up to 112C (233F). While the external probe only read 29C (85F). I have been advised by both Grin Tech and the Cyclone dealer that 120C could harm the motor. Today, I did the same climb with a 52v battery (58v x 43.5amps) and the motor barely got to 70C internal.
My conclusion is that the Cyclone 3000 can not take a steady diet of 3KW. If you are going to run above 3 KW, you had better install an internal temperature gauge and keep a close eye on it. The external temperature probe is a waste of time. You will damage your motor before it shows any significant rise.
BTW: The Cyclone is quieter at 52 volts.

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

Yes, I was abusing the Cyclone. I was riding illegally so I was running a higher gear (lower rpms) to try keep the Cyclone noise down. I have no idea what rpm the motor was at. The whole climb was less than 10 minutes. I plan to use the 52 volt battery from now on. It had plenty of power at 52 volts, took the same abuse and did not overheat.
Point of the post: How warm the outside of the motor feels to the touch has nothing to do with how hot the motor windings are.

That's good to know. I was considering playing around with a Cyclone 3000 in a similar fashion, keeping the RPMs low to keep it quiet. And I would be climbing some very steep hills, although for only about 2 minutes at a time. In my case, I wouldn't be riding illegaly, but ebikes already get a bad rap with the mountain bikers so not drawing attention to myself is always a good thing.

What type of epoxy did you use for the probe on the windings?

 

[robocam]

I'm curious about this statement. What's going on?

... ebikes already get a bad rap with the mountain bikers so not drawing attention to myself is always a good thing...

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

I'm curious about this statement. What's going on?

... ebikes already get a bad rap with the mountain bikers so not drawing attention to myself is always a good thing...

There seems to be a general feeling that ebike riders are lazy, unskilled, cause more erosion, disturb the peace, makes it too easy to get out on the trail thus causing crowding, etc.

My work commute trail also allows horses. Horse owners have a lot of money. These horse owners have been successful in lobbying to get some trails closed off to regular mountain bikers. I could see the same happening if we scare their horses with a whirring motor.

 

[sather]

I'll try to answer your questions:

What was the outside temperature when the inside probe read 70C on 52V?
Outside ambient air temperature was 60F (16C). The outside temp sensor on the motor case got up to 75 f (24C).

Could you post a picture of the probe on the outside? I'm curious about what it looks like.
It's glued (silicone rtv) on the motor case and fin directly adjacent to the internal winding temperature probe, probably less than 1/2 inch apart.

What's the difference in fun factor between the 2 voltages? I've been thinking about going up to 74V from 52 (20s3p vs 14s4p), but if the gains are marginal, I may stick with 52V. Is the acceleration significantly different?
The 60 volt battery is way more fun than the 52v on roads. Not so much on technical trail riding where acceleration and high rpms can be a handful. I would say the increase in acceleration is directly proportional to volts and of course the motor winds to a higher rpm at higher voltage so the acceleration curve extends longer.

What battery configuration did you use?
My 16S is the 60 volt Luna triangle
My 14S is the 52 volt Luna triangle 25r batteries

What type of epoxy did you use for the probe on the windings?
I used JB quick epoxy as per Grins instructions.

I'm having trouble posting a pic of the temp probe on the motor. Apparently my camera will only shrink the image size to 2m

 

[robocam]

Thanks for the details!

So when the windings were 112C, the case was 29C. And when the windings were around 70C, the case was 24C.

I'm wondering about the different methods used to attach the temperature probes. The outside probe is attached with silicone. Silicone is used as a thermal insulator. I have oven mitts and trivets made of silicone, which are excellent at shielding my hands and table from hot cookware. For consistency, attaching both sensors using the same method might be more scientific.

To post pictures here, I usually use Photoshop to drop the resolution and JPG quality. If you're using Windows, you can use Paint to resize the image to 25% or less and save it as a JPG. It's ok, you don't have to post the picture if it's too much trouble.

I'll try to answer your questions:

What was the outside temperature when the inside probe read 70C on 52V?
Outside ambient air temperature was 60F (16C). The outside temp sensor on the motor case got up to 75 f (24C).

Could you post a picture of the probe on the outside? I'm curious about what it looks like.
It's glued (silicone rtv) on the motor case and fin directly adjacent to the internal winding temperature probe, probably less than 1/2 inch apart.

What's the difference in fun factor between the 2 voltages? I've been thinking about going up to 74V from 52 (20s3p vs 14s4p), but if the gains are marginal, I may stick with 52V. Is the acceleration significantly different?
The 60 volt battery is way more fun than the 52v on roads. Not so much on technical trail riding where acceleration and high rpms can be a handful. I would say the increase in acceleration is directly proportional to volts and of course the motor winds to a higher rpm at higher voltage so the acceleration curve extends longer.

What battery configuration did you use?
My 16S is the 60 volt Luna triangle
My 14S is the 52 volt Luna triangle 25r batteries

What type of epoxy did you use for the probe on the windings?
I used JB quick epoxy as per Grins instructions.

I'm having trouble posting a pic of the temp probe on the motor. Apparently my camera will only shrink the image size to 2m

 

[sather]

I tried to push the external probe flush with the case and one fin. Then I applied the silicone more on top to hold the probe in place. But obviously it is not working because it is too slow to respond.
I thought about making a little shroud of Styrofoam to hold the probe against the motor and isolate the probe from ambient air temperature. Another solution would be to drill a hole in the motor case and insert the probe. It would not be measuring winding temperature but would be a lot more accurate than the external probe.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Two different problems of motor over heat are the overheating of the magnets and the overheating of the shellac/varnish on the copper wires in the armature windings. I suspect the material coating the copper wires is the first to get too hot? [how do they[magnets and copper] differ in cooling?] when doing long hard pull at high amperage because this is where the electrical energy is converted to semi focused magnet energy in an uptake process that is less than 100% efficient.

I have had several AC motor [no magnets here] failures even when I could see no heat damage but knew they had been running quite hot. I traced the motors' inability to start to a blown one-time thermal fuse embedded in the copper winding which was wired in series with the armature windings. After short circuiting the blown fuse the motor stated.

It seems to me that embedding the thermistor in/next to the copper windings is most likely to yield temp info to shut down the motor before ruining it. Maybe embed the thermistor in an armature winding with computer heat sink thermal grease and then cover the thermistor/grease with RTV silicone to hold it in place.

But if the magnets get too hot first the above suggestion is worthless............... Anyone know? Monitor them both locally [magnets and varnish] and figure what their failure temps are?

I have had some motor failures with Makita 18v BlDC motors of rotary hammers [the safety thermal overheat switch is on the stationary magnets]. The armature wires turn blackest where they curve the most -- mabe here is greatest magnet/electric field concentration as the cooling does appear to have little blockage here.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I think I read somewhere that the side seals on sealed bearings typically are at risk above 120C / 284F

In a dirty environment (some ride in a dusty / muddy off-road ride, and other ride on asphalt) fried seals will lead to early bearing demise. I will try to find an authoritative resource to verify, but...you have been warned, so do as you please.

I think 200F / 93C is a reasonable limit in the hottest part of the motor, due to solder melting, halls frying, etc...