new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[robocam]

If it raises the price of the kit, no. I think people would get one if they have problems. The jump stop doesn't fit all frames either.

Sick Bike Parts supplies a Jump Stop (picture above) our 2 and 4 Stroke Shifter Kits. Should we include one with our Electric kits? We didn't/don't have problems with chain jumps, but our testing sampling is tiny compared to the real world. Also, need to see if the root cause of chain loss can be figured out - lots of people don't properly tension their bike chains, for example. We do sell the Jump Stop separately.

 

[robocam]

What are the resistors on the hall sensors for? Did you add water drain holes at the bottom?

Hello, guys.
Look at little upgrade from me
https://pp.vk.me/c836126/v836126131/74fd/NhozCf-G4Pw.jpg
https://pp.vk.me/c836126/v836126131/7507/Fq78N0jqpj0.jpg
http://cs630031.vk.me/v630031131/3b630/jchsbU-Dkj8.jpg

The cooler on the rotor, holes in the cover and strong mount.
55A, 75V, speed 75km/h: temperature not higher 65С

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z4FoUOvVI4

 

[DingusMcGee]

I think the jump stop would significantly reduce the frequency of chain drops (it does the exact same thing as the fin on the MRP unit)

it does the exact same thing

The two pieces of hardware do not function identically as the MRP unit sweeps around the ring and guards the chain for a longer interval. They are not equivalent.

I think the chain comes off because it misses the first tooth and then derails.

I find this description a little vague and the timing and chain positioning very unclear/unstated.

Here follows a description of one scenario in which the jump stop is likely not to work:

You are coasting downhill with the throttle speed a little less than enough to keep the top of the chain low in tension of any sort. A sudden bump puts the left chain plate on the chain ring and since the chain is in low tension it can ride here, briefly. Check this out with a chain and ring. Next while this seemly unstable state is continuing, you make a left turn in bouncy terrain. So the gravity force in this turn is pulling the chain, just after passing the jump stop, towards the left of the ring and at this point on the ring the chain has little tension so links can fall across the ring first with the right side plate touching on the ring and next further links comes off to the left and into the free space. When the chain gets in this free space it sends a back pressure wave towards the jump stop but the teeth with the chain at such an angle start catching links more at a cross wise angle and shit then happens -- we hear noises. This propagated angling may cause the chain to hit the chain lifters on the ring to the right -- who knows where this trajectory of chain will go from here?

Prior to conjuring up the above scenario I had noticed these inside derailments occurred when making left turns on bouncy terrain while coasting.

The scenario above could not happen with 100% annular coverage especially if we have a stiff oversized annular ring and one of those stiff Wolftooth 416 stainless steel rings that Robo thinks are too expensive for what they do. He sticks with steal?

I have seen the chain moving with the plate(s) riding on the teeth many times. "It just happen everyday" -- the Rolling Stones. Watch your rear derailleur when shifting to a bigger cog -- common to see the plates riding on the teeth. And a little more force/motion pushes the chain further to the left and on to the bigger freewheel cog.

 

[robocam]

I said the fin on the MRP chain guide does the same thing as the drop stop.

We can sit in front of our computers and theorize all day long. The only way to know is to try it. I think the drop stop is a much easier first step.

I often wonder why they don't make cranksets with guards on both sides so that the chain cannot fall off. I thought about doing that by adding an extra chainring next to the large chainring. When I was using the triple as a 1x setup, the large chainring acted just that way, preventing the chain from falling off on the right.

I can either pay $6 for a stamped steel chainring or $100 for the Wolftooth. Somehow I can't justify the Wolftooth.

...The two pieces of hardware do not function identically...

...Here follows a description of one scenario in which the jump stop is likely not to work:

...The scenario above could not happen with 100% annular coverage especially if we have a stiff oversized annular ring and one of those stiff Wolftooth 416 stainless steel rings that Robo thinks are too expensive for what they do. He sticks with steal?...

 

[DingusMcGee]

I thought about doing that by adding an extra chainring next to the large chainring

We concur on this side of the rings -- I have been thinking of putting another aluminum annular ring to the right of big chain ring -- about the same size as a larger yet chain ring. There is one minor problem? as I suspect the derailleur has too push the chain a little beyond where the chain normally would ride to shift. My idea is to make the outer radius of the annular ring equal to the inner radius of where the inside of the chain plates ride on the big ring. That way there is no derailleur interference and no free space for the chain to fall into.

 

[Dimax-Russia]

What are the resistors on the hall sensors for? Did you add water drain holes at the bottom?

Hello, guys.
Look at little upgrade from me
https://pp.vk.me/c836126/v836126131/74fd/NhozCf-G4Pw.jpg
https://pp.vk.me/c836126/v836126131/7507/Fq78N0jqpj0.jpg
http://cs630031.vk.me/v630031131/3b630/jchsbU-Dkj8.jpg

The cooler on the rotor, holes in the cover and strong mount.
55A, 75V, speed 75km/h: temperature not higher 65С

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z4FoUOvVI4

It's pull-up resistors.
I had very big problems with the Hall sensors. It was a double blink (on the change of poles) and the controller stopped. As a result, I had to threw away the complete controller (40A) and buy Kelly: no other controller does not work correctly.

I did not do "water drain holes at the bottom". Why would they? Water evaporates from the engine (normal temperature 60-70 degrees) and the fan will blow it out

 

[steamboy]

hello
if anybody interested here is a 3d printed snap on chain guard https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1857650

 

[jakehrosenberg]

I asked this question in the general discussion topic, but I'm wondering what all of you cyclone folks think. I'm looking to replace the electrics on my Kona Ute long tail cargo bike, and I'm leaning towards the Cyclone 3000. I see that most of you are using these for off road, but is there any reason that this wouldn't be suitable for a commuter/grocery getter? Should I expect reliability issues after I get it set up and tuned in? I definitely realize that 3000W is excessive for my needs, but I'm having trouble seeing why I would want to pay more for a bafang mid drive with less power. Lastly, are the cyclone kits from the various suppliers i.e. Luna, SBP, cyclone all largely the same or do they vary? Is there an easy way to compare the various kits? A link to my original post is in my signature if anyone is interested.

Thanks!

 

[DingusMcGee]

steamboy,

Re: chainguard

Looks good and I like the idea of it being a snap on device -- maybe it will easily snap off when hitting something and save itself from major destruction? My bolted on chainguard version makes for difficult chain changes. I might like to try one of yours.

Is the version of the guide made from 3D printing going to be as strong as polycarbonate?

What is going for? in $$? and how does one order one??

 

[steamboy]

DingusMcGee: it's for free. just download and print

 

[Alex07]

Luna, SBP, cyclone

They look to be all the Same its cheaper to just get direct from Cyclone most times. The only one that is improved for reliability it seems is the AFT c3000w with the stronger brackets , kelly controller and ceramic bearings etc.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robo,

I can either pay $6 for a stamped steel chainring or $100 for the Wolftooth. Somehow I can't justify the Wolftooth.

You may know the two steels these two chain rings are not equivalent. I suspect the $6 stamped steel chainring is pure mild steel without any heat treat and the Wolftooth is heat treated 416 SS and is likely somewhat more durable than raw mild steel. The question is how much longer will the heat treated ring outlast the mild steel? And no rusting with the Wolftooth.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Alex07,

for the price of the ATF c-3000 I could buy quite a few Cyclone 3000 motors from the low cost dealers.

And for Kelly [programmable?] controllers I have 2 [ a 96v and a 180v]but why bother as they are bigger and at $49 replacement with no failures yet the OEM C-3000 controller is a hell of great buy. If you want terrific speed get a Cromotor and you will leave the trike kid gman1971 with his overheated C-3000 in the duust.

 

[juanfeli]

I had the same thought 9 months ago when I went for the Cyclone 3k. No problem since I did Robocam bracket cosutumization. Pretty happy with it and I'm using it a lot as commuter and running errands.

I don't think that is there any difference between the different providers.

What I like it more is it versatility. You can go from 36 to 72 and 40 amps with will be more than plenty for a cargo/commuter bike and you don't have to invest in an additional controller.

What batteries do you plan to to use with it?

I don't think that any of Lunas currently pack is properly suitable for this kit.

May be is not mention often, but where Cyclone 3k always win is price.

I asked this question in the general discussion topic, but I'm wondering what all of you cyclone folks think. I'm looking to replace the electrics on my Kona Ute long tail cargo bike, and I'm leaning towards the Cyclone 3000. I see that most of you are using these for off road, but is there any reason that this wouldn't be suitable for a commuter/grocery getter? Should I expect reliability issues after I get it set up and tuned in? I definitely realize that 3000W is excessive for my needs, but I'm having trouble seeing why I would want to pay more for a bafang mid drive with less power. Lastly, are the cyclone kits from the various suppliers i.e. Luna, SBP, cyclone all largely the same or do they vary? Is there an easy way to compare the various kits? A link to my original post is in my signature if anyone is interested.

Thanks!

 

[DingusMcGee]

I don't think that any of Lunas currently pack is properly suitable for this kit.

Do you mean what is currently in stock on this day?

I have 2 of their 72v 11ah rectangular packs and they will drive the C-3000 just about anywhere you can ride it. Do to the demand and the size of production runs from Luna it seems sometimes you have to wait until what you want becomes again available.

 

[Pablo]

Luna, SBP, cyclone

They look to be all the Same its cheaper to just get direct from Cyclone most times. The only one that is improved for reliability it seems is the AFT c3000w with the stronger brackets , kelly controller and ceramic bearings etc.

Cyclone ships from Taiwan. We use flat rate shipping in the USA. Works if you are in the USA. Varies for ROW.

The components are the same basically.

 

[sather]

Many Chinese Ebike vendors charge much more for shipping than their actual shipping cost. My personal experience: Sick Bike Parts usually ships the same day the order is placed, with little or no profit built into the shipping. And they stand behind everything they sell.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Sather,

agreed about SBP. In fact I just ordered another [my 4th] C-3000 and this time from SBP. I did not know of them when purchasing the other 3 C-3000's.


I am using this C-3000 on the Specialized Big Hit FSR Mountain Bike Frame MEDIUM Fox DHX Air 500x2.80 that Robo found on ebay. Thanks Robo for sharing your search efforts.

 

[dirkdiggler]

SBP kit also comes with a Bmx chain. Figure that to save you another 10 dollars.

 

[robocam]

What voltage will you be running it at? The Cyclone 3000 would be great for a cargo bike. I would only go with a BBSHD if noise is a concern, not that the Cyclone is loud by any means. I think it's quite quiet at 52V. There are parts that can wear out over a long time, but they are very affordable and widely available. That's one of the big advantages of the Cyclone.

I like the Luna kit because it comes with black brackets. If you choose the ISIS crank arms, they are black as well. My brackets are raw aluminum, and I tried to paint them black, but the paint comes off once in a while. Other than that, they are fairly similar, with the exception of the $1000+ AFT kit which comes with upgrades that are mostly unnecessary in my opinion, certainly not worth the price. It has upgraded bearings in the planetary gearbox, but the regular Cyclone doesn't have any issue there. The crankset freewheel is a $20 part, at most $120 for the SBP version. They seal it with sealant, but all you need to do is drill 2 holes on the bottom to let the water out, or you can silicone it yourself. They provide upgraded brackets, but you can reinforce the bracket yourself with a few inexpensive parts from your local hardware store, or you can buy an upgraded bracket for ~$100. They provide a ball bearing idler pulley, but you can get one on eBay for less than $2 shipped. It's great that they have a "polished" version, but I think most DIYers are going to want to do it themselves. Gman has thousands of miles on his regular Cyclone. You could almost buy 3 Cyclones for the price of one AFT Cyclone. I really don't mean to knock it, but the price is just too much.

Here's Gman's post about his Cyclones.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1375#p1223967

One thing to note is that if you're planning to run it at 52V and plan to use a Cycle Analyst, don't get any of the ORO throttles. Get the throttle with the voltage display. The ORO throttles aren't designed for use at 52V, and even if you change the resistor to try to get the battery meter to work, it will cause the Cycle Analyst to report inaccurate voltage readings, and all the information it provides (voltage, power, watt hours, etc.) will be inaccurate. At least that's my experience. In fact, I don't think I'd get the Oro throttle for any voltage because if it does weird things to my Cycle Analyst at 52V, who knows whether it does this at other voltages as well.

...I'm looking to replace the electrics on my Kona Ute long tail cargo bike, and I'm leaning towards the Cyclone 3000. I see that most of you are using these for off road, but is there any reason that this wouldn't be suitable for a commuter/grocery getter? Should I expect reliability issues after I get it set up and tuned in? I definitely realize that 3000W is excessive for my needs, but I'm having trouble seeing why I would want to pay more for a bafang mid drive with less power. Lastly, are the cyclone kits from the various suppliers i.e. Luna, SBP, cyclone all largely the same or do they vary? Is there an easy way to compare the various kits? A link to my original post is in my signature if anyone is interested.

Thanks!

 

[robocam]

I just went over to your other post to check it out, and it seems like they're all against the Cyclone. Don't listen to them =) The only way to have an efficiency is to use a mid drive. Stay away from hub motors. The BBSHD is not as powerful (unless modified). It also has chainline issues on some bikes. There are tons of us here that can help you if you run into any issues. Are you good with your hands? Do you have a good understanding of physics? If so, the Cyclone is your answer =)

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=83542

I asked this question in the general discussion topic, but I'm wondering what all of you cyclone folks think...

 

[jakehrosenberg]

Thanks everyone, I'm new to all of this and any help is appreciated! I'm planning on using a 52V 18650 pack from Luna, probably in the 15-20ah range. I emailed them the other day and they assure me that they'll have their battery stock back up in the next few weeks. Any thoughts on what specific cells I should look at?

What voltage will you be running it at? The Cyclone 3000 would be great for a cargo bike. I would only go with a BBSHD if noise is a concern, not that the Cyclone is loud by any means. I think it's quite quiet at 52V. There are parts that can wear out over a long time, but they are very affordable and widely available. That's one of the big advantages of the Cyclone.

I like the Luna kit because it comes with black brackets. If you choose the ISIS crank arms, they are black as well. My brackets are raw aluminum, and I tried to paint them black, but the paint comes off once in a while. Other than that, they are fairly similar, with the exception of the $1000+ AFT kit which comes with upgrades that are mostly unnecessary in my opinion, certainly not worth the price. It has upgraded bearings in the planetary gearbox, but the regular Cyclone doesn't have any issue there. The crankset freewheel is a $20 part, at most $120 for the SBP version. They seal it with sealant, but all you need to do is drill 2 holes on the bottom to let the water out, or you can silicone it yourself. They provide upgraded brackets, but you can reinforce the bracket yourself with a few inexpensive parts from your local hardware store, or you can buy an upgraded bracket for ~$100. They provide a ball bearing idler pulley, but you can get one on eBay for less than $2 shipped. It's great that they have a "polished" version, but I think most DIYers are going to want to do it themselves. Gman has thousands of miles on his regular Cyclone. You could almost buy 3 Cyclones for the price of one AFT Cyclone. I really don't mean to knock it, but the price is just too much.

Here's Gman's post about his Cyclones.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1375#p1223967

One thing to note is that if you're planning to run it at 52V and plan to use a Cycle Analyst, don't get any of the ORO throttles. Get the throttle with the voltage display. The ORO throttles aren't designed for use at 52V, and even if you change the resistor to try to get the battery meter to work, it will cause the Cycle Analyst to report inaccurate voltage readings, and all the information it provides (voltage, power, watt hours, etc.) will be inaccurate. At least that's my experience. In fact, I don't think I'd get the Oro throttle for any voltage because if it does weird things to my Cycle Analyst at 52V, who knows whether it does this at other voltages as well.

That's all great info! I think that for now I'm planning on just getting the kit, battery, and pedal assist sensor, running it like it is and then deciding what upgrades are necessary. I have been thinking about the cycle analyst so I'll definitely stay away from the ORO throttles. I think I've read that the throttle can be touchy with the cyclone, is that right? Safety is a big concern as I'll often have my kid(s) as passengers, is the Cycle analyst the best option for regulating throttle and power levels? Also, what is the best way of setting up the cyclone to switch between pedal assist, throttle, and various power settings?

Thanks again!

 

[robocam]

EM3EV is another option for batteries. They have a charger that can charge to 50% for storage. That's something I wish the Luna charger could do.

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=35

I'd also like to add that Sick Bike Parts has excellent customer service.

I have Luna's Samsung 25r 14s8p pack, and I love it. If I were to consider another cell, it would probably be the Samsung 30q. After looking at the datasheets, these seem to be among some of the best cells for high current use.

Here is some great information on batteries.

https://www.electricbike.com/18650-cells-for-e-bike/

The Oro throttle feels ok to me. I haven't really had any issue with touchiness. If you don't use a Cycle Analyst, there's no reason not to get an Oro throttle.

Only get a Cycle Analyst if you want to geek out on the data it provides. I don't really use it to change anything throttle related. I originally bought mine to limit my speed, but now I run it unlimited. I also bought the potentiometer to continuously vary the current, but now I just run it at maximum all the time. I think the best thing to do is to upgrade to the 60A Bluetooth programmable controller. If you have an iPhone or have access to one, you can download the app to play with it. There are tons of things you can adjust.

If you buy it from Luna, get the triple crankset. Even if you don't use the second chainring, it can serve to prevent the chain from falling off to the right. I find that it improves my chainline if I use the inner chainring. On my bike, there's no way I could use the stock double chainring. The chainline is way too skewed when I'm using the granny ring in the rear. The chain would fall off.

As far as which triple to get, that would depend on your frame and how you want to use it. If you want to be able to pedal only up steep hills, you might want a 24 as the smaller ring. Otherwise a 32T should be fine. I had a 32T in a 1x setup, and it worked great, even while towing 3 trailers full of kids. I now use a 44/38/24 setup. With the 24, I can tow my trailers up very steep hills, and the motor isn't even breaking a sweat. My largest rear cog is a Wolftooth 42 but when using the 24 up front, I can stay in my steel 36T cog. Some bikes cannot take a 48T large chainring (it might hit the chainstay or the derailleur might not be compatible), so if you're unsure, get a 44T. How fast do you want to go?

I have no experience with pedal assist, so I can't comment on that. But if I recall correctly, I read somewhere that someone wasn't happy with it. One solution to this is to use a Cycle Analyst for its PAS system. You can even assign the potentiometer to vary PAS assist I believe.

Thanks everyone, I'm new to all of this and any help is appreciated! I'm planning on using a 52V 18650 pack from Luna, probably in the 15-20ah range. I emailed them the other day and they assure me that they'll have their battery stock back up in the next few weeks. Any thoughts on what specific cells I should look at?

That's all great info! I think that for now I'm planning on just getting the kit, battery, and pedal assist sensor, running it like it is and then deciding what upgrades are necessary. I have been thinking about the cycle analyst so I'll definitely stay away from the ORO throttles. I think I've read that the throttle can be touchy with the cyclone, is that right? Safety is a big concern as I'll often have my kid(s) as passengers, is the Cycle analyst the best option for regulating throttle and power levels? Also, what is the best way of setting up the cyclone to switch between pedal assist, throttle, and various power settings?

Thanks again!

 

[robocam]

Awesome! You're welcome. I'm looking forward to hearing about your project. I almost bought a similar frame. I want to know what you think about the feel of the slack seat angle and head angle. It's also adjustable to a small degree. The bottom bracket is slightly higher than the one on the Demo 8, so I'm curious about its handling. What fork are you pairing it with? I'm also curious about where you're going to put the battery.

...I am using this C-3000 on the Specialized Big Hit FSR Mountain Bike Frame MEDIUM Fox DHX Air 500x2.80 that Robo found on ebay. Thanks Robo for sharing your search efforts.

 

[robocam]

Ok, so today I set my bike in a gear where it would top out at around 25mph, and I found that it was adequate for all-purpose use, and I run a 14s battery, so if you run it at 18s, it should work really well, and you can probably gear it so that it tops out at 30 mph.

My 29er's gearing is 13T to 44T (motor to crankset), 38T to 24T (crankset to cassette).

Here's a gear chart that may be useful.

http://www.wolftoothcomponents.com/pages/gear-chart

Just out of curiosity, what are the advantages of running singlespeed?

Off the top of my head: can run a thicker chain, don't have to think about shifting

But I'm so happy with my 10-speed setup that I can't imagine being stuck in one gear all the time =)

I am planning to run at 18s 16ah lipos, so 66,6v-75,6v. That would be awesome if you would try it with that speed, maybe even 25mph would be perfect.