new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[GIGATT]

Hey my chain keeps popping off. I tried several different things... I feel dumb
Should I add spacers at point 1. where the motor touches the mount or at point 2. the BB?

 

[DingusMcGee]

GIGATT,

Hey my chain keeps popping off. I tried several different things... I feel dumb
Should I add spacers at point 1. where the motor touches the mount or at point 2. the BB?

From your top view picture I cannot tell whether you have stiffened the motor frame properly. If the motor frame is not stiff enough, a perfectly aligned chain will come off under accelerations with a load on the wheel because the flexible motor frame will get out of chain alignment between the motor pulley and bb chainring.

 

[minimum]

Good way to check motor chain(-rings) alignment is with the chain off. Press ruler to the side of chainring and check whether there will be a cap between ruler and freewheel cog or between ruler and front edge of chainring.
In first case, there's also possible to make small adjustments by releasing the screw ( small internal hex) and prying/pulling freewheel away from motor (I wouldn't go further than a few mm).
In 2nd case, add M6 washer(s) between right mounting bracket and motor, to extend those spacers, shown on your picture, no 1.

 

[GIGATT]

Thank you for the prompt response. I will try to add spacers at point 1.the alignmrnt is straight. I think I will stiffen the motor mount

Good way to check motor chain(-rings) alignment is with the chain off. Press ruler to the side of chainring and check whether there will be a cap between ruler and freewheel cog or between ruler and front edge of chainring.
In first case, there's also possible to make small adjustments by releasing the screw ( small internal hex) and prying/pulling freewheel away from motor (I wouldn't go further than a few mm).
In 2nd case, add M6 washer(s) between right mounting bracket and motor, to extend those spacers, shown on your picture, no 1.

 

[minimum]

Thank you for the prompt response. I will try to add spacers at point 1.the alignmrnt is straight. I think I will stiffen the motor mount

If sprocket and motor cog line up and it still throws off the chain then I can think of another 3 reasons:
1. Chain tensioner is not aligned or loose (laterally) so it will de-rail the chain.
2. There's a play between BB axle and bearing and/or bearing and it's housing. Mine did - shaft was turned in machine shop with excessive tolerances which created play and twist of shaft's axis which in turn misaligned chainring. Cyclone TW had actually put plumbers tape between shaft and bearing to reduce the play but that PTFE tape is really soft.
3. Freewheel (within chainring) has a play. Uncommon for a brand new. Mine developed some play quite fast, within first 100-200km; but it has held so far (900km).

4. Or, a combination of those three above

 

[GIGATT]

Thanks for the info,

I had some stiffening initially, but I took it off because eventually, the chain came off. All of the reinforcing that I had seen was for the older style cyclone mounts. I have the kind of mount in these pictures... the (bent plate) mount. (the dirtiest looking picture is mine)

Is there a known way to reinforce that (bent plate) mount? I am trying to find a place that sells a through bolt that long.

I was going to try the robocam mount then I saw where you suggested a through bolt. It took a while to finally find pictures of both and they are both the other style of mount.

The original picture was just to see if I should add spacers at point 1 or point 2

GIGATT,

Hey, my chain keeps popping off. I tried several different things... I feel dumb
Should I add spacers at point 1. where the motor touches the mount or at point 2. the BB?

From your top view picture I cannot tell whether you have stiffened the motor frame properly. If the motor frame is not stiff enough, a perfectly aligned chain will come off under accelerations with a load on the wheel because the flexible motor frame will get out of chain alignment between the motor pulley and bb chainring.

 

[GIGATT]

There is a little play in the freewheel on the Chainring/crank... I heard there should be a washer there?

"Agreed with Christian, in my experience (all my eBikes have a Cyclone triple chainring) the crank freewheel NEEDs the washer when the crank is threaded onto it... otherwise it will come off and make it so wobbly it would be bad. This happened to me on the first freewheel I installed on the trike, within 100 miles the freewheel was so wobbly it wasn't even funny, and when I took it out the freewheel spew all its little ball bearings all over the floor... it was my mistake for not putting the washer when I threaded the crank arm to the freewheel"

... I am not sure what kind of washer. All of the other 3 reasons seem to be OK... I think

Thanks again! I owe you like 2.00 paypal

Thank you for the prompt response. I will try to add spacers at point 1.the alignment is straight. I think I will stiffen the motor mount

If sprocket and motor cog line up and it still throws off the chain then I can think of another 3 reasons:
1. Chain tensioner is not aligned or loose (laterally) so it will de-rail the chain.
2. There's a play between BB axle and bearing and/or bearing and it's housing. Mine did - shaft was turned in machine shop with excessive tolerances which created play and twist of shaft's axis which in turn misaligned chainring. Cyclone TW had actually put plumbers tape between shaft and bearing to reduce the play but that PTFE tape is really soft.
3. Freewheel (within chainring) has a play. Uncommon for a brand new. Mine developed some play quite fast, within first 100-200km; but it has held so far (900km).

4. Or, a combination of those three above

 

[minimum]

Left side (that thin bent one) mount needs to be between two nuts (large thin toothed one) on BB. I used one from my old BB that came off when installing Cyclone. That way you can control how far the mount sits on BB and keep it flexing under load.
In theory it controls angle between motor and BB axes (ideally should be parallel) so when it's loose as in your last picture, it may allow enough flex/movement to misalign chainring.
Left mount to motor screws do not need to be long, 20-25mm is enough. Through-all long bolt is pointless - it wont add any stiffness and I'm not even sure motor mounting holes are threaded through (which would be pointless IMO).
I have run same mounts without any additional stiffening (68mm BB) with motor pulling up to 60A from battery and it has been OK after I got mu BB shaft "fixed".
Oh, I replaced chain tensioner arms to stainless steel (quick and ugly hack job) as those 3x12mm aluminum ones got bent really bad after few first times when motor chain came off.

 

[flat tire]

OK here's my issue with the heavy duty mounts. I had to grind them a little to get everything to go into place so I cannot comment on stock mounts. My BB rings are installed tightly and the off-side mount is fully compressed on the BB extension. My chain line is ok and the tensioner is installed. But, the mounts flex way too damn much. I will need to devise a better solution to use this motor at high torque.

 

[DingusMcGee]

flattire,

here is my solution for stopping motor frame flex:

minimun,
. Through-all long bolt is pointless - it wont add any stiffness and I'm not even sure motor mounting holes are threaded through (which would be pointless IMO).

To begin with the above assertion by minimum is false. Thru bolts do add stiffness to the floppy hinge setup in which the motor is fastened to the motor frame side plates. I have done dial gauge readings of sideways displacement for various lateral loading of various motor frame stiffening methods to know what actually contributes to stiffness. This study is posted in this thread.

You can get long bolts from McMaster-Carr thru this link:

https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-socket-head-screws/=1bg9a3g


The type of trail riding I do is backcountry off trail & rocky sidehills with some cobbled hill climbing. My motor fame regularly gets shock loadings from a powered spinning rear wheel hitting the dirt as the rear wheel while under throttle power gets some air on these rides and then hits the dirt. I use thru bolts and 4 long gear clamps to eliminate the motor frame flex. Stiffening the motor frame in this way is the low tech & cheap solution that works for the toughest of abuse riding these c3000 bikes can do. My chains stay on until they break.

Here is a picture of the clamp setup taken with the bike upside down.



In particular, notice how the second clamp up from the bottom wraps around the bottom bracket shell and the motor. The placement of this clamps is what contributes the most to eliminating motor frame flex. After tightening these clamps recheck to confirm that the motor pulley and its chainring are in the same plane using a straight edge as minimum suggests. You will have to drill out the threads of the hinge plates to get the thru bolts to pass through the threaded hinges plates. Instead of using the metric 6mm bolts I switched to 1/4" Allen head grade L9 bolts which are stronger/stiffer than class metric 12.9. Grade 8 bolts will work fine.

 

[minimum]

To begin with the above assertion by minimum is false. Thru bolts do add stiffness to the floppy hinge setup in which the motor is fastened to the motor frame side plates.

I thought we were talking about stock ("new style") cyclone mounts.
On your mounts the difference is obvious.

 

[GIGATT]

minimum so far adding the washers to point 1 and adding the BB nut worked so far... until I crossed that field...

WHAT VOLTAGE ARE YOU RUNNING @ 60 Amps?

DingusMcGee I will see see if the hose clamp around the BB and over the motor helps any... and maybe the through bolts on my new style cyclone mounts

To begin with the above assertion by minimum is false. Thru bolts do add stiffness to the floppy hinge setup in which the motor is fastened to the motor frame side plates.

I thought we were talking about stock ("new style") cyclone mounts.
On your mounts the difference is obvious.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Hi minimum,

you say, On your mounts the difference is obvious...


okay, I have not got to install or see the new frame plates. I hope the difference is obvious that thru bolts will not help.

Thanks for clarification

 

[DingusMcGee]

deleted

 

[DingusMcGee]

GIGATT,

I have looked at the pictures of the bent motor frame mounts posted above. It looks like a gear clamp around where I suggest would give some structural triangulation for the frame size 68 -83mm BB width. -- think rigidity to lateral movement.

Let me know how this fix goes.

 

[jonnydrive]

Hi guys,
what do you think about this engine? it is arrived already damaged (the shaft is slighty bended)


http://www.cerberotech.com/Fatbike/shaft_bended.mp4

will the chain slip at the first ride?

Someone has successfull convince Cyclone to replace the engine in warranty?

 

[Skaiwerd]

Hi guys,
what do you think about this engine? it is arrived already damaged (the shaft is slighty bended)


http://www.cerberotech.com/Fatbike/shaft_bended.mp4

will the chain slip at the first ride?

Someone has successfull convince Cyclone to replace the engine in warranty?

No. And I wouldn’t want to. That looks like it was dropped on a concrete floor and it hit right on the edge of the freewheel. Where did you purchase this from? Did the box it arrived in look damaged? That really doesn’t look fixable or usable to me. Time for you to return it to where you purchased it for a replacement, or file a claim with the shipping company.

 

[jonnydrive]

thanks Skaiwerd,
I bought it from Turbobikekit, the “europe reseller” to avoid customs problems.They also claims that their products have European Warranty ...but as matter of facts it isnt a real reseller (like Lunacycle), they only tooks orders and forward to Cyclone in Taiwan.
Bottom line: the pacage was sent directly from Taiwan, without the right documentation so the italian customs block tha packager for about 20 days

Afther pay duties and taxes I received a package that was apparently intact but onece opened I foud the surprise

I tried to contact Turbobike unsuccessfully, no replies at all. I can’t suggest this seller to anyone.
Thereby I contacted direcly Cyclone tw, they have a very fast reply, they proposed to sent to me for free the gerarbox and the freewheel as a replacement part, but I must sustain other 50$ of shipping costs (and probably related customs taxes).

Without a real local reseller I think is the best I can be obtained.

 

[DingusMcGee]

The early c-3000 motor frame can be readily modified to adjust for chain slack or tenson. These adjustments work when gear clamps are used to stabilize the motor frame. In the above photo the 15/48 cog chain setup was a little tight even though the pin was pressed with the chain on the cogs.

To get a little chain slack put smaller cylindrical spacers on the upper thru bolt on both ends. Chisel off the cooling fin on the left side that's prevents the spacers from resting on the motor case.





To tighten a loose chain you will have make a hinge plate bigger than the OEM hinge which has the centers separed by 21mm. The material is about 0.44 in. Thick. This bigger hinge plate is to be swapped into place on the bottom hinge. This bigger plate will lengthen the distance from the bb axel to the motor axel. The distance to increase the hinge hole spacing is about 1/2 the length the chain is too long. When making this change you will likely need to swap out the barrel spacers on the thru bolt ends.

 

[Chalo]

I repaired two more 3000W motors today that had bad Hall sensors, one with a rotten rear bearing as well. Got them running as good as new. I opened one more short stack motor that was burned so badly it was like a stinky dusty ashtray in there-- so no saving that one. Even the bearings were burned.

Recent Cyclone 3kW motors use a unit PCB with all three Halls mounted on it, but all three of the ones I serviced today were the earlier type with separately installed sensors. I had to cut the sensors off of replacement boards and solder them into the old wiring.

Another difference between recent motors and older ones is the phase wiring color assignments. All three of the phase wires must be color mismatched on a new controller to make it work correctly.

These motors may not be as completely reliable as I'd prefer, but they are pretty straightforward to service, and I appreciate that.

 

[JtHaas]

Alright I'm here to voice my opinions before joining the cyclone cult with my FUTR beta. I will first fix my bmc v4 and it's little hall sensor issue and sell it off for a tiny fraction of what I paid for it and trade that cash in for a cyclone mid drive. I've got quite a few questions though. They are mostly opinion questions so no need for real research.

I will be mounting the motor directly to the frame through a bracket similar to a design LR did on his new mid drives.
This should be enough to fight off any of the motor flex when accompanied with the bottom bracket mounts but my question is with the square taper bottom bracket. I've read reports that say it's useless to use and often is a source of flex and therefore chain throwing, does anyone have any anecdotal experience with this?
Running the motor at 63V and 60A what sort of gear ratio do you recommend with the stock double chain ring. If anyone could let me know of their speeds and gear ratio etc.
And lastly...
Single speed or steel cassette? or a modified cassette to adjust the chainline etc?
Anyways, I'm hoping this idea goes well, I'll be asking you guys a lot if I go this way!

Thanks
-Jt

 

[Skaiwerd]

Alright I'm here to voice my opinions before joining the cyclone cult with my FUTR beta. I will first fix my bmc v4 and it's little hall sensor issue and sell it off for a tiny fraction of what I paid for it and trade that cash in for a cyclone mid drive. I've got quite a few questions though. They are mostly opinion questions so no need for real research.

I will be mounting the motor directly to the frame through a bracket similar to a design LR did on his new mid drives.
This should be enough to fight off any of the motor flex when accompanied with the bottom bracket mounts but my question is with the square taper bottom bracket. I've read reports that say it's useless to use and often is a source of flex and therefore chain throwing, does anyone have any anecdotal experience with this?
Running the motor at 63V and 60A what sort of gear ratio do you recommend with the stock double chain ring. If anyone could let me know of their speeds and gear ratio etc.
And lastly...
Single speed or steel cassette? or a modified cassette to adjust the chainline etc?
Anyways, I'm hoping this idea goes well, I'll be asking you guys a lot if I go this way!

Thanks
-Jt

Even without the cyclone added a square taper requires a torque wrench to install properly. Coming loose is almost guaranteed if you don’t use one, assumes you know the torque setting to use. This is what’s required for normal bike use, so a must with a cyclone. I think using the isis bottom bracket makes the torque setting less important, just crank it up tight. I’ve used single speed 16t, 22t and 36t. I went to an xt cassette because adding the cyclone makes a bike a multipurpose bike. You want to go fast to get to the trials and the gears to be able to ride hills once you get there. Chains and cassettes are cheap for 9 speed so no big deal to replace yearly if needed. I’m running xtr mtn bike derailleurs from the 90’s and they work great, about $25 eBay etc. I want to see someone put the mid drive in the battery holding area down low and not use the bottom bracket, brackets at all. I know motor cooling and loosing battery space are factors.

 

[JtHaas]

Putting the motor inside the battery space would require frame modification. I think the cyclone is too big to do that comfortably. There is an ebike for sale local to me that has done just that though and the frame looks really good! Mounting the motor underneath is a different story and the simplest option if accompanied by the bottom bracket mounts.

 

[Chalo]

Single speed or steel cassette? or a modified cassette to adjust the chainline etc?

Definitely using a multi-speed cassette will improve durability and service life, with a few conditions:
- Don't shift under motor power
- Do shift among different gears to distribute wear and adjust for different riding demands
- Keep chainline reasonable.

I don't know how bad the Cyclone kit's chainline is, but it might be beneficial to choose say your favorite two-thirds of your available gears and place them all on the end of the cassette that had the best chainline (almost certainly the outer part). Stick the others on the inside and use the derailleur's limit screws to lock them out of the game.

 

[2old]

Did that with a BBS02; 11-17-28 with 8-speed spacing, and an inexpensive Altus derailleur worked fine.