new eZip motor
- Thread starter latecurtis
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latecurtis
100 MW
I did look at your graph DA. Basically if I keep it around 10mph I will get the most usable life and range out of any type of SLA. Thats what I got from that. Thanks.
As the Hub Motor Turns and the Lipo Fire Burns. batteries vs Kilowatts.
I was just thinking on my way back walking from Stewart's to get coffee creamer and some pie that 36V is not an ideal battery configuration as there are no 16.0 or 20.0- 5s bricks and it would require at least three 36Ah SLAs probably to run a single 3300W AmpFlow motor. However since I plan on running dual AmpFlow motors in series a 72V controller rated at 100A would be 7200W which should work perfect for 6600W of motor power.
My question is would three 20.0 6s bricks in series for 66.6V work to power this configuration. At $145 each that’s probably going to run close to $400 with the shipping. six 20.0 bricks would be way too much at a whopping $800 probably with shipping. Would a large capacity 72V LIFEPO4 pack be a better option? If so how many Ah would be required? My guess is at least 60Ah. Is that close DA?
I am going to try to hold on to the Manga even though I need money. I rode it last night to go out drinking until 3am. I am really interested in a small light geared hub motor that will run on a single 20.0- 6s LIPO for light weight and stealth. It would not be noticeable much at all because as an extra precaution I would run it pedal assist whenever I see headlights behind or in front of me to make sure I don’t get a DWI. I would want it to be able to go up hills. Top speed is not important as long as it will go 15mph on the flat.
LiveForPhysics mentioned he was looking for a 75-5 FX motor to send me. He asked for my address in a PM. and when I asked him why that is what he said. I did not get my hopes up but I looked it up and it is 70 foot pounds of torque. It goes 85mph in a motorcycle. I really want to build an East Coast version of the Death bike someday. Two 20 kilowatt Astro motors, one on the front and one on the back could work but not enough to beat a zero motor I don’t think.
I know that with brushless motors it is not possible to run two with a single wheel sprocket however what about a spoke sprocket on either side of the wheel? Two Astro motors on the back and two on the front would be 80 kilowatts. Would it work? How much is an 80 kilowatt brushless controller and what battery configuration would possibly work for that?
72V * 1200A = 86,400W or 86.64 kilowatts. The controller specs are 72V and 1200A. I have no idea what possible battery configuration would work for that much power. If a 20.0 6s LIPO at approx. 25V or( 4.2V * 6 ) fully charged each brick would need to be capable of a 50A discharge and 24 would be required to accomplish 1200A. Eight in parallel * three rows in parallel series is the minimum requirement and at five pounds a brick they would weigh 120lbs or about three times what an e bike frame could hold.
I just want to know if I am even close on any of those calculations and would like to know what the correct values would be. Also what type of battery configuration would work and what does LiveForPhyics use to power his Death bike that goes over 100mph in the quarter mile. I know he uses a Zero motor that is made for a motorcycle but a motorcycle is built to hold 120lbs of batteries easily as gas motors weigh more than that. An e bike is a totally different story. DA. Do you know what batteries he uses and how much they weigh? You are the battery expert. If anyone would know besides LiveForPhysics himself it would be you. Please let me know.
None of this is going to happen until I get my SSI settlement. The two little unite motors with the 36V controller is what I will be working on until then. Also when I do get my settlement check I have to buy a motor vehicle first before any e bike projects. I had to promise the ol lady that to get the money for the four 10Ah SLAs.
Since I have to own one it might as well be a small pickup truck as I can haul scrap metal if the prices ever go up to make it even worth doing. Lately the prices have been very low. Also with a truck I can move to a better place as I am on the black list forever from renting a U haul as I got in two accidents in the same day with one with no insurance back in 2004 I think. Also I have not totally given up hope on converting a gas truck to electric. It could be possible when the scrap metal price goes up and I am getting an $840 check every month from social security.
Please let me know if four 20 kilowatt Astro motors will work and what battery configuration, if any would work. Also controller and battery options for the dual 3300W AmpFlow motors. 6600W/3 = 2200W. 2200W/25V = 88A. If three 20.0 6s bricks would work each would need to discharge at about 88A correct? Is that possible? six in parallel series would make it 44A discharge each but would cost about $800 with the shipping. That is too much money. Would a 60Ah 72V LIFEPO4 pack work better and cost less?
Also another graph for kilowatts and speed would be very helpful starting at 1 kilowatt = 30mph and going up to 80 kilowatts. I need the top speed to calculate the sprockets on the sprocket calculator. I will need a 10 second quarter mile bike to beat LVP. I believe. Please let me know. Doug gave me this today when I told him about the AmpFlow motors. see pic helmet. It may come in handy in the future. Please post when you can.
Minimum Capacity: 20000mAh
Configuration: 6S1P / 22.2V / 6Cell
Constant Discharge: 10C
Peak Discharge (10sec): 20C
Pack Weight: 2405g
Pack Size: 200 x 90 x 60mm
Charge Plug: JST-XH
Discharge Plug: XT90
I got a package at the USPS ofice they tried to deliver when I was sleeping. I have to go pick it up. It is either two of the SLAs or the controller.
That is the specs. from that brick. What does it = in maximum amps at discharge. I need to know to calculate how many will be needed for the dual AmpFlow motors and the four kilowatt Astro motors.
thanks. Please let me know when you can.
LC. out.
Attachments
DrkAngel
1 GW
Well ... my point was not that you could make 200 x 40 mile trips at 10mph!latecurtis said:
My point is that at your desired 30mph, your range would be a pitiful 2 miles ...
and so horrifically damaging ... !
that your new batteries are only capable of about 5 trips at that speed and range!
DrkAngel
1 GW
Too small battery choice for chosen expected Amps drain causes rapid and irreversible damage!
Excessive discharge rates overwhelm the SLA gas recombination cycle, quickly degrading capacity and performance.
Found a very informative Manual from a battery Manufacturer.
SLA Battery Technical Manual
For exhaustive battery learning.
See - Battery University
Excessive discharge rates overwhelm the SLA gas recombination cycle, quickly degrading capacity and performance.
Found a very informative Manual from a battery Manufacturer.
SLA Battery Technical Manual
For exhaustive battery learning.
See - Battery University
latecurtis
100 MW
View attachment 2
As the Hub Motor Turns and the LIPO Fire Burns. food and SLAs.
Basically I had no choice but to run the old SLAs to Wall-Mart as these guys needed night crawlers. I know when they are hungry as they stare at me and I know they are thinking where are the worms! See pic1 and 2. Fortunately they came in. I get them at the sporting goods section and the large Canadian crawlers come 18 in a carton for around $3.69. They are large worms aprox. 5 to 6" long and I try to feed these guys twice a week. The last time I was there they only had 24 really small worms about 2" called red worms. I was glad they got the big ones back. There are five eels in all so each one gets about 3 worms.
The Asian Swamp eels need all the help they can get as they got stuck in evolution. They actually developed prehistoric lungs but never left the water. They are not related to the River and Ocean or electric eels. They are a separate species that never got out of the swamp. Asian people make hot dogs out of them. I am considering writing a book on evolution.
Also today I went to the grocery store which is in the same place as Wall-Mart. 1.3 miles and 2.6 miles round trip. I did pedal assist most of the way but really ran out of juice tonight in the last two blocks on the way back. The SLAs are on life support. See pic3. The post office was closed. They closed at 1pm Saturday and were not open Sunday. I think it is the variable 24 to 60V controller as it was only 50 cents more for priority shipping for some reason and a three week to a month difference in delivery time.
I want to get all five SLAs before I run them so I am going to try to make these old ones last awhile longer. I got about 30 pounds of food in the front basket tonight. I set the potentiometer for about 5 mph and pedal assisted most of the trip. I want to get a fifth 10 Ah SLA for 60V but have to wait until next month. If the controller comes in I can run the LIPOs until I get all five SLAs.
Since it is geared for 35mph with 60V I should be able to achieve it, however I only plan on doing it once or twice and then limiting my speed to about 10mph to make sure they last awhile. Hopefully more than a year this time. I know after viewing DAs chart that 10mph is the optimum speed for discharging and that the SLAs will last much longer if I don’t exceed that.
I know I am not supposed to run them until they are totally dead when I break them in. I never broke the three 12Ah SLAs I have now in and they seemed to last the least amount of time compared to the ones I ran until they were totally dead two or three times when I first got them. Please let me know the proper way to break these new ones in. They will be 50Ah and fully charged to start. I need to know how far and how fast I should go the first two or three times I run them.
My other question is in charging them. DA said that 1.5A for a 12Ah SLA is maximum. What is the optimum for maximum battery life. I have been charging them in series with a 1.8A three stage charger and often leaving it hooked up overnight. A three stage charger should not under any circumstances over charge batteries since in the third stage the voltage is high but the amps are very low like only a few milliamps. Is that correct?
I decided to use the mega charger tonight and hooked all three in parallel and set it for 3A. 36Ah total at 3A and after 48min it dropped down to 2.4A. After 107min it was charging at 1A and in 120min 0A and says time. I know it takes about six hours at least with the 1.8A three stage charger so I figured out how to set it to 240min and restarted it at 2A. It read full about an hour later. End voltage is set to 14.70V. I know at end voltage the current is .01A as charging current drops during charging. If there is a way to change end voltage I could try to set it lower if necessary. Please let me know.
At 1.8A with the three stage exclusively each SLA is only being charged at .6A. I am not sure if it is good for the SLAs. Am I better off using the Mega charger first at 5A for 50Ah and then hooking up the 1.8A three stage to maintain the five batteries? I want to keep charging in parallel. A 60V three stage charger would probably cost a lot and one defective SLA could cause that nasty looking picture one of you guys posted of the burnt SLAs a few pages back. I don’t see how that much destruction could ever happen in parallel with any 12V SLA charger. Mabye a 12V 50A car charger.
When I start charging the new batteries I need to know what the perfect setting on the Mega Charger should be for five 10Ah SLAS in parallel. The correct amps and time. I hope I can figure out how to change the time. The mega charger will stop charging but it and the power supply stay on so I would like to finish charging with the 1.8A three stage as I either leave it on all night or unhook it and hook up the desulfator. Also when should I start desulfating the new SLAs after I get them?
I am battling a new addiction called plants vs zombies. Doug warned me about it and I think he could be right. I wish I could invent my own game giant eels vs zombies and get rich! DA. Let me know if that is a good idea and please let me know about breaking in and charging the SLAs. Thanks.
DA. I saw your posts on battery care and maintenance. However it is 4:51pm. The post office closes at 6pm. I got a large package in my hall way which are probably two of the SLAs but I need to go to the post office to see if my controller is there. Thanks,
LC. out.
As the Hub Motor Turns and the LIPO Fire Burns. food and SLAs.
Basically I had no choice but to run the old SLAs to Wall-Mart as these guys needed night crawlers. I know when they are hungry as they stare at me and I know they are thinking where are the worms! See pic1 and 2. Fortunately they came in. I get them at the sporting goods section and the large Canadian crawlers come 18 in a carton for around $3.69. They are large worms aprox. 5 to 6" long and I try to feed these guys twice a week. The last time I was there they only had 24 really small worms about 2" called red worms. I was glad they got the big ones back. There are five eels in all so each one gets about 3 worms.
The Asian Swamp eels need all the help they can get as they got stuck in evolution. They actually developed prehistoric lungs but never left the water. They are not related to the River and Ocean or electric eels. They are a separate species that never got out of the swamp. Asian people make hot dogs out of them. I am considering writing a book on evolution.
Also today I went to the grocery store which is in the same place as Wall-Mart. 1.3 miles and 2.6 miles round trip. I did pedal assist most of the way but really ran out of juice tonight in the last two blocks on the way back. The SLAs are on life support. See pic3. The post office was closed. They closed at 1pm Saturday and were not open Sunday. I think it is the variable 24 to 60V controller as it was only 50 cents more for priority shipping for some reason and a three week to a month difference in delivery time.
I want to get all five SLAs before I run them so I am going to try to make these old ones last awhile longer. I got about 30 pounds of food in the front basket tonight. I set the potentiometer for about 5 mph and pedal assisted most of the trip. I want to get a fifth 10 Ah SLA for 60V but have to wait until next month. If the controller comes in I can run the LIPOs until I get all five SLAs.
Since it is geared for 35mph with 60V I should be able to achieve it, however I only plan on doing it once or twice and then limiting my speed to about 10mph to make sure they last awhile. Hopefully more than a year this time. I know after viewing DAs chart that 10mph is the optimum speed for discharging and that the SLAs will last much longer if I don’t exceed that.
I know I am not supposed to run them until they are totally dead when I break them in. I never broke the three 12Ah SLAs I have now in and they seemed to last the least amount of time compared to the ones I ran until they were totally dead two or three times when I first got them. Please let me know the proper way to break these new ones in. They will be 50Ah and fully charged to start. I need to know how far and how fast I should go the first two or three times I run them.
My other question is in charging them. DA said that 1.5A for a 12Ah SLA is maximum. What is the optimum for maximum battery life. I have been charging them in series with a 1.8A three stage charger and often leaving it hooked up overnight. A three stage charger should not under any circumstances over charge batteries since in the third stage the voltage is high but the amps are very low like only a few milliamps. Is that correct?
I decided to use the mega charger tonight and hooked all three in parallel and set it for 3A. 36Ah total at 3A and after 48min it dropped down to 2.4A. After 107min it was charging at 1A and in 120min 0A and says time. I know it takes about six hours at least with the 1.8A three stage charger so I figured out how to set it to 240min and restarted it at 2A. It read full about an hour later. End voltage is set to 14.70V. I know at end voltage the current is .01A as charging current drops during charging. If there is a way to change end voltage I could try to set it lower if necessary. Please let me know.
At 1.8A with the three stage exclusively each SLA is only being charged at .6A. I am not sure if it is good for the SLAs. Am I better off using the Mega charger first at 5A for 50Ah and then hooking up the 1.8A three stage to maintain the five batteries? I want to keep charging in parallel. A 60V three stage charger would probably cost a lot and one defective SLA could cause that nasty looking picture one of you guys posted of the burnt SLAs a few pages back. I don’t see how that much destruction could ever happen in parallel with any 12V SLA charger. Mabye a 12V 50A car charger.
When I start charging the new batteries I need to know what the perfect setting on the Mega Charger should be for five 10Ah SLAS in parallel. The correct amps and time. I hope I can figure out how to change the time. The mega charger will stop charging but it and the power supply stay on so I would like to finish charging with the 1.8A three stage as I either leave it on all night or unhook it and hook up the desulfator. Also when should I start desulfating the new SLAs after I get them?
I am battling a new addiction called plants vs zombies. Doug warned me about it and I think he could be right. I wish I could invent my own game giant eels vs zombies and get rich! DA. Let me know if that is a good idea and please let me know about breaking in and charging the SLAs. Thanks.
DA. I saw your posts on battery care and maintenance. However it is 4:51pm. The post office closes at 6pm. I got a large package in my hall way which are probably two of the SLAs but I need to go to the post office to see if my controller is there. Thanks,
LC. out.
DrkAngel
1 GW
Use normally.
Partial discharges (50%?) using partial throttle to cruising speed.
Fully recharge with proper SLA charger immediately after use. Don't use FLA charger!
" End voltage is set to 14.70V "
Way too high! Pretty sure I told you this before ... ?
That is the maximum charge voltage for FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) the type that requires refilling with distilled water.
................................................... SLA Charge ........................................ FLA Charge .................
................................................. 2.30V = 13.80V .................................. 2.40V = 14.40V ..............
................................................. 2.35V = 14.10V .................................. 2.45V = 14.70V ..............
My BatteryMinder Charger-Desulfator charges at 14.10V then "maintains" (float charge) at 13.80V. - seemingly ideal voltages - (AGM setting)
Partial discharges (50%?) using partial throttle to cruising speed.
Fully recharge with proper SLA charger immediately after use. Don't use FLA charger!
" End voltage is set to 14.70V "
Way too high! Pretty sure I told you this before ... ?
That is the maximum charge voltage for FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) the type that requires refilling with distilled water.
................................................... SLA Charge ........................................ FLA Charge .................
................................................. 2.30V = 13.80V .................................. 2.40V = 14.40V ..............
................................................. 2.35V = 14.10V .................................. 2.45V = 14.70V ..............
My BatteryMinder Charger-Desulfator charges at 14.10V then "maintains" (float charge) at 13.80V. - seemingly ideal voltages - (AGM setting)
DrkAngel
1 GW
Yup ... different chart but ~same recommended voltage limits. - SLA Gassing VoltageDrkAngel said:" End voltage is set to 14.70V "
Way too high! Pretty sure I told you this before ... ?
That is the maximum charge voltage for FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) the type that requires refilling with distilled water.
................................................... SLA Charge ........................................ FLA Charge .................
................................................. 2.30V = 13.80V .................................. 2.40V = 14.40V ..............
................................................. 2.35V = 14.10V .................................. 2.45V = 14.70V ..............
latecurtis
100 MW
As the Hub Motor Turns and the LIPO Fire Burns. New SLAs. 65mph?
11/9
It was the other two SLAs that were at the post office, not the controller. The old SLAs made it there and back. It was a little less than Wall-Mart or approx. 2 miles round trip instead of 2.6 miles. I now have four new SLAs. The old ones are hooked up to the Mega charger now. I measured voltage for the new ones after taking them out of the box and they are not charged. Voltage is around 12.7V. I will get stickers and label each one.
batt1 shows how I grouped them and I marked the packing slips so they won’t get mixed up. batt2 shows the voltage of each one before charging. My plan is to fully charge each SLA separately with the mega charger at .5A or 1/2 an amp until fully charged. The charger is set for 240min. This may take several days. I want to label the voltage on each one approx. 24 hours after charging.
After that I will hook them all in parallel and leave them in parallel all the time except for when I run them. The name of the manufacturer is Titan Batteries 6437 Alondra Blvd. Paramount, CA 90723. The description of them is 12V 10AH sealed lead acid batteries for electric scooter Schwinn. Since they are specifically for an electric scooter the quality may be superior to the old 12Ah SLAs. I am wondering if they may be the same weight or heavier than the 12Ah SLAs. They seem kind of heavy.
The three old SLAs charged in 128min and it reads full. I set the charger at 3A and the time limit at 240min. I don’t really understand how they can charge that fast but 3A @36V is a lot better than 1.8A@36V. I hooked up the desulfater now. Batt3. I will hook them back up in parallel and top them off with the three stages before running them again. Since the desulfater works up to 48V I can do the same thing with the new SLAs in the future. Mega charge, desulfate and then three stage charge before using.
I am charging the new ones at 1/2 an amp each until I find out the perfect value as I don’t want to abuse these SLAs from the start. I want to see the exact voltage of each when fully charged. I am about to hook the first one up. Information on the side of these new SLAs read.
type. - Voltage Regulation initial Current less than 3A in standby and cycle use.
standby voltage = 13.5 to 13.8V
cycle voltage = 14.4 to 14.7V
I don’t know what all that means but cuttoff voltage on the charger is 14.7V so I don’t think I need to change anything except setting it to .5A and charging. That’s what I am doing. Batt3. I placed the other three in the basket. Batt4. They are not a perfect fit like the 12AH SLAs but if I cut and place other pieces of wood I could easily fit a fifth SLA for 60V and still have room for the chain and padlock when the front basket is full of groceries.
However after reading DAs post today about how severe the damage is to SLAs at 30 or 35mph I may not get a fifth SLA and try to keep my speed under the federal limit of 20mph and 10mph 90% of the time so I can get as much use as possible out of them.
If I choose to do that, the race against Doug will not happen until after I get my SSI settlement. Also after I get a new 11 tooth motor sprocket as the one on there now works ok but I am only running it at 36V and 2,250rpm. At 60V it will be turning 3,750rpm. Also I am considering ordering a 60V 48 or 60Ah LIFEPO4 pack. I would like more information on LIFEPO4. I want to know the difference it makes to battery life at 30 mph with 48V and 40Ah of SLA vs the approx. 20Ah of 44.4V LIPOS I have, compared to say 48 and 60 Ah of LIFEPO4.
I am sure the higher the Ah the less damage done to the batteries at 30mph. That is why I am considering 60Ah of LIFEPO4 when I get the money. If I ever do get dual AmpFlow motors I will need at least a 72V - 72Ah LIFEPO4 pack. That will be very expensive. Now I see why I dont get any feedback when I ask for information on the AmpFlow and Astro motors. Those are toys for very rich men. LiveForPhysics must be very rich to afford anything like that.
That is probably why he has not sent me a 75-5 motor. It would most likely sit for years in a closet collecting dust as a controller would be about $3,000 and batteries maybe even more. The best I can hope to ever achieve on an e bike I think is the dual AmpFlow motors with a 7 killowatt brushed controller and a 72V - 72Ah LIFEPO4 pack minimum. About 57mph with a 56T sprocket. It might hit 65mph going down a hill.
11/10/15
I am at the library downtown. I saw your post on maximum cutoff voltage. I can try to lower the setting on the mega charger. I don’t understand why it says cycle voltage = 14.4 to 14.7V on the side of the new SLAs though. I already charged the first one until full. The second one is hooked up now. In order to keep them all in the same state I need to finish charging them all at ½ A until all four are charged. After I run them the first time then I can try to set the maximum cutoff voltage lower.
You do know however before the Mega charger reaches 14.7V the charging current is .01A. It gradually gets lower and lower before it says full. Also I set it at .5A to start to prevent overcharging. Another thing I really don’t get is who even uses flooded lead acid batteries. I never even heard of them until Dan mentioned them very early on in this post. They are not common at all. I never saw one on e bay or anywhere else online.
Dan sent me the mega charger. The setting for SLAs is pb on the charger. I really don’t get why the standard setting on it would be for flooded lead acid batteries when hardly anybody uses them. I am not saying that you are wrong DA. I am only stating that it reads 14.4 to 14.7V on the side of the new battery and that as far as I know the pb setting on the charger is for SLAs not FLAs or flooded lead acid batteries. However I am sure you got your information from a reliable source so I will attempt to lower the cutoff voltage the next time I charge them.
That will be after I run them normally about 3 miles and also will be all five in parallel at about 4A or .8A for each SLA. 50Ah@4A charging should be the perfect setting for charging. Please let me know if 1A per SLA or 5A will work for 50Ah of SLAs. That is what I wanted to set it at. I know you did mention that a 12Ah SLA could be charged at 1.5A earlier on in this post. Please let me know. I have to wait until the nov 16 or until Dec1 to get the controller as it is coming from china. I could run the new SLAs with the Schwinn though to break them in. Please post when you can. Thanks.
http://www.silvertel.com/images/technical-articles/charging_sealed_lead_acid_batteries.pdf
I looked up the link on SLA batteries you posted. I also found this one on my own. This one states - "Once the terminal voltage reaches 14.4V; the Ag102 charge cycle automatically moves on to
the final stage of the charge cycle is the “Float Charge”. It does not state what the maximum voltage is during the float stage though. I am assuming 14.7V. All I can do is see if I can lower the maximum cuttoff voltage on the charger to 14.4V when I start parallel charging all four of them at 5A. as I also found this on that link. " For example, if the capacity of the SLA battery being charged is 4Ah, then the constant current should be limited to 1 Amp." I am charging 10Ah SLAs so I will be charging all five in parallel at 5A with the mega charger. After about 6 weeks I will start desulfating them and then hooking them up to the three stage charger about an hour before running them. Thanks. Please let me know what you think about it. Especially the cycle voltage on the side of the new SLAs as I dont even know if I can lower the cutoff voltage. I will see if it is possible as soon as I get home but should probably finish charging all of them at 1/2 A before actually changing anything. I really want to get it right this time and not abuse these batteries. Please post when you can. Thanks. I see you on here. I will be here for about 15min. or I can PM you my phone # and you can call me later. I have unlimited minutes on my cell. Thanks.
LC. out.
DrkAngel
1 GW
FLA are in all automobiles as starter batteries.
Deep cycle FLA are common in boats, solar storage, electric work vehicles - fork lifts, lifts etc..
Deep cycle FLA are common in boats, solar storage, electric work vehicles - fork lifts, lifts etc..
latecurtis
100 MW
I found them but smallest is about 170Ah. They are huge and heavy. I dont see any for an e bike. Also most are 6V. I saw a few 12V but they start at $200 and up I see. I am familiar with car batteries but they are not deep cycle and dont think the pb setting on the charger is for car batteries.
Library is closing. Call me if you can. DA and DAN. Thanks. LC. out.
Library is closing. Call me if you can. DA and DAN. Thanks. LC. out.
DAND214
10 MW
FLAs are used in motorcycles and I have one in my lawn tractor. Think it's a 12ah, heavy and clunky.latecurtis said:
As for LiFePo4 packs. If you are looking for 30+ah you will need a trailer for them :lol: A little smaller than SLA and lighter but not as light as LiPo. The new Li-ion 18650 cells are amazing. Look at http://lunacycle.com/ Eric has a great deal for all ES members and he's in California.
Dan
Sunder
10 MW
Sorry this is so off topic LateCurtis, but I'm excited and since we're sharing our electric journey together a lot on this trip, I had to share:
I bought a Plug In Hybrid that can do almost all my driving without a single drop of fuel. Left a deposit last night, asked to pick it up tonight, but latest on Monday. Yup. I've joined the dark side. They have batteries:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=74152
I bought a Plug In Hybrid that can do almost all my driving without a single drop of fuel. Left a deposit last night, asked to pick it up tonight, but latest on Monday. Yup. I've joined the dark side. They have batteries:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=74152
latecurtis
100 MW
View attachment 1
As the Hub Motor Turns and the LIPO Fire Burns. 14.7V standard.
11/11
Pic1 shows the mustimeter hooked up to the new 10Ah SLA that has not been charged. It is hooked to the three stage SLA charger I ordered specifically so I would not abuse SLA batteries. Pic2 shows the manufacturer, phone number and model number. It specifically states it is an SLA charger not FLA. Fortunately it only puts out 14.75V instead of the 15V written on it.
Pic3 shows the Mega charger charging the third new SLA. It is charging at 14.7V exactly. Also that is .03A not 3A in case you are wondering. The three stage was charging at 14.75V. Pic 4 shows what occurs when I hook the three stage charger to the second new SLA which was fully charged via the Mega charger. It turned red and shot up to 14+V for about two seconds then the light turned green and voltage dropped down to 13.81 within about 10 seconds.
I can’t afford to buy another charger. Also I know for a fact the 24V charger that came with the Currie charged at close to 30V. It was 29. Something. I remember testing it when I first got the 12Ah SLAs a while ago. I also own a small 1300ma 12V Zodx SLA charger that charges at right around 15V. I remember testing that also. That is why I ordered the Three stage charger. Also when I touched the New SLAs they were not warm at all. Obviously if they were even slightly warm gassing would have occured.
I also remember discussing this awhile back. I was running three 22Ah SLAs with the Currie and shorted out my 36V charger so I bought a 12V trickle car charger at Wall-Mart. I used it awhile and DA said it would destroy the SLAS. That is when I ordered the little 1300ma 12V SLA trickle charger. I also remember measuring the car charger and watched the voltage raise gradually up to about 15.3V. I never used it again and gave it to Eric for his car.
The proper SLA charger DA recommended back then was a 36V SLA charger I believe. I know a 3 stage 48V charger would cost a fortune if they even had one and I would be willing to bet money the mustimeter would read at least 58V. (14.7 * 4 = 58.8V) I would also bet a 36V charger would put out close to 44V. (14.7 * 3 = 44.1V). Also these high voltage chargers could easily overcharge one of the batteries if they are not all in the same state.
I tried to lower the cutoff voltage on the Mega charger but was unsuccessful. Obviously charging at 14.7 is what the manufacturer of the batteries recommends or it would not be written on the battery. Pic5. I will be doing all four SLAs in parallel@4A with the Mega charger. After a couple of months I will run the desulfater overnight and use the three stage before running them. I know I saw something about outside temperature being a factor in gassing. It is cool in the hall way this time of year. During summer weather I could charge them near an AC. That should prevent gassing then.
Another thing I remember is the voltage difference between new SLAs and old SLAs fully charged. New SLAS are around 13.16 or 13.17V. I just tested the first new one I charged and it read 13.16V. The second is 13.14 and the third is 13.18. The forth is still charging. The old 12Ah SLAs are fully charged and read 13.28V. It should rise after a few charging cycles as I remember.
I am going to build the battrack I posted earlier and store them in parallel. I will hook up the 3 stage for about five or 10min a day to try to get them all close to the same state. The three old SLAs all read 13.28 exactly when I test them separately. That is how I know keeping them in parallel works. They were all at least .02V off from the start also.
I would like more information on the break in cycle. Is 50% discharge and normal operation enough? The Currie owner’s manual states full discharge three times clearly. However If 100% discharge is damaging as DA states, would 75 or 80% discharge extend life maybe? It has something to do with chemical reactions inside the batteries. Once they occur the standing voltage raises after fully recharging and then any further discharge past 50% would be damaging as DA stated. That’s what I think.
I think more research should be done in this case as I can only break them in one time. It is not something you can go back and do over! Instead of running them until they are TOTALLY dead like before maybe I should simply run them until they slow down a little instead but only two times and not three times like the Currie manual states. I am thinking this as the Currie SLAs and the 22Ah SLAs seemed to last longer than the 12Ah SLAs which I did not break in at all.
I ran them normally from the start and usually never went over 3 miles with them. I also desulfated those most of their life. They should be in a much better state than they are currently in. Please let me know if anyone comes across any new information on breaking in SLAs. I am not saying DA is wrong about anything. He is correct about 90% of the time I would say. I just want to be 100% sure I get my money’s worth this time out of these new SLAs.
11/12
I had to make a very important appointment about a mile and a quarter away today. I had about 15min to get there. I was almost tempted to use three of the new SLAs but did not and used the old ones instead. I made it with at least five minutes to spare. I went about 15mph about half way there then slowed down to about 10 with pedal assist. The trip home was pedal assist and the last half a mile mostly pedal.
After charging with the Mega charger for about 4 1/2 hours at 3A they were fully charged. It took at least 6 hours with the three stage charger. I made a second trip about 2.6 miles to Wall- Mart to get worms for the eels. Normally I would have had to walk but thanks to the Mega charger it made it there and back with pedal assist. By not going over 10mph and walking up a couple small hills and coasting down them it was no problem.
After I got home I hooked it back up and 90min later it read full. I hooked the three stage up to check them and got a green light so I hooked the desulfater in series. I used the desulfater in parallel most of their lives but the state they are in now they need all the help they can get. I have to go downtown to City hall tomorrow so I plan on running the Schwinn and the Lipos so I don’t have to walk or pedal on my way back as it is mostly up hill. They are charging now.
I am still building the 26" Roadmaster with 20" wheels. I am going to throw the two little motors in series on the Roadmaster with the 20" wheels at 36V for the hell of it and to prove I can. When I get the new controller that will be my next e bike project. Until then I would like some feedback on the Ampflow motors and battery options. . Also members on this forum must have used AmpFlow motors as they are popular on Amazon. I am very curious about their performance.
I really need a chart for power and speed. I know DA did a few earlier but how high did it go? I would love to see one go up to 50 or 100 kilowatts but would be satisfied with 5 or 10 kilowatts if one was already posted somewhere and I missed it. I am sure there is but it could take a while to find it. We are going on 90 pages now I think.
Thanks. Please post when you can.
LC. out.
latecurtis
100 MW
http://lunacycle.com/batteries/packs/36v-18650-20ah-ebike-battery-packs/
I guess I found the right battery for the AmpFlow motor. Thanks Dan.
Sunder. congratulations are in order on your new ride. Now if a few billion people would do the same the planet earth would have a bright future not a dark one.
I have about 5 minutes left and am researching breaking in SLAs. Thanks. I will be at the library tomorrow.
LC. out.
http://electricbikeshoponline.com/service/proper-battery-care/
"A: Yes, it is recommended that you perform a “break-in” cycle consisting of three discharge/charge cycles to
allow your batteries to reach optimum performance. This involves three complete discharges and three complete
recharges. After this initial “break-in” cycle the batteries will have maximum possible performance and less line
voltage fluctuations under load."
This basically is the same information that was in the Currie manual.
I guess I found the right battery for the AmpFlow motor. Thanks Dan.
Sunder. congratulations are in order on your new ride. Now if a few billion people would do the same the planet earth would have a bright future not a dark one.
I have about 5 minutes left and am researching breaking in SLAs. Thanks. I will be at the library tomorrow.
LC. out.
http://electricbikeshoponline.com/service/proper-battery-care/
"A: Yes, it is recommended that you perform a “break-in” cycle consisting of three discharge/charge cycles to
allow your batteries to reach optimum performance. This involves three complete discharges and three complete
recharges. After this initial “break-in” cycle the batteries will have maximum possible performance and less line
voltage fluctuations under load."
This basically is the same information that was in the Currie manual.
DrkAngel
1 GW
LC ... take note!!!
Your quote seems to be an incomplete quote referring to Lithium batteries.
Read the rest of the original source answer.
Your quote seems to be an incomplete quote referring to Lithium batteries.
Read the rest of the original source answer.
http://www.electricbicycle-outdoor-store.com/page/takecarebatteries
http://projects.eri.ucsb.edu/scec/pbic/equip/man/battery_care.html
DAND214
10 MW
LC, don't argue (bite) with the man (hand) that feeds you!
DA has more info/knowledge than you will ever have time to source. Listen (read) what he has said.
You can ask for more info on the issue and get the wrong answer or take what has been given. If you want a different answer so it fits your needs don't even ask, just do what you want.
The only time you would want to kill a battery till it's dead is to discard/recycle it.
Li-Ion packs as they (your post) said to run till dead, is only if they have a GOOD BMS system on them.
Best rule of thumb is, DO NOT DISCARGE ANY BATTERY DEAD/FLAT if you expect to recharge/use them again!!!
Dan
DA has more info/knowledge than you will ever have time to source. Listen (read) what he has said.
You can ask for more info on the issue and get the wrong answer or take what has been given. If you want a different answer so it fits your needs don't even ask, just do what you want.
The only time you would want to kill a battery till it's dead is to discard/recycle it.
Li-Ion packs as they (your post) said to run till dead, is only if they have a GOOD BMS system on them.
Best rule of thumb is, DO NOT DISCARGE ANY BATTERY DEAD/FLAT if you expect to recharge/use them again!!!
Dan
DrkAngel
1 GW
- Recommendation from consensus of info for break-in procedure ...
- Charge fully
- Make throttle restricted trips of progressive distance 1 mile, 2 mile, 4 mile, 8 mile etc
(Gently accelerate - Do not exceed ~10mph, level travel only ... if necessary, pedal assist for hills but no additional throttle!)
Fully charge between each trip!
- Recommendations for prolonged lifespan ...
- Never discharge to the point that it "starts to slow down"
- Don't exceed a 1C discharge rate
480w input from battery = ~350w output from motor = ~20mph on level hard road - Always recharge immediately after every use!
Charge at a 6-8 hour rate (1.2A - 1.5A for 10Ah battery) - Charge all batteries at same time. - EG 48V SLA 3-stage charger for 4 batteries
Charging 1 at a time leaves:
1 charged immediately = good
1 charged next morning = bad
1 charged next evening = very bad
1 charged next night = very very bad
latecurtis
100 MW
Ok i will do more research. It will be awhile before the controller shows up. Free shipping from china takes awhile.
latecurtis
100 MW
I am on a phone. Parallel charging charges all batteries at same time the new slas i did not run yet. Only charged. Waiting for controller
DrkAngel
1 GW
With 48V 10Ah battery 1C discharge allows ~ 20mph capability with reasonable battery life.
At 1C limiting discharge to above ~11.25V can greatly extend life = discharging deeper destroys battery life for minimal, sagging, extra power.
11.25V x 4 = 45V recommended maximum depth of discharge at 1C discharge rate.
At 1C limiting discharge to above ~11.25V can greatly extend life = discharging deeper destroys battery life for minimal, sagging, extra power.
11.25V x 4 = 45V recommended maximum depth of discharge at 1C discharge rate.
Attachments
Sunder
10 MW
I think that this is a continual case of "Buy cheap, buy N times", where N is an index number for stubbornness.
My first LiPo lasted 3 years, and probably got close to 500 full cycles on them. They were still holding 90% of their capacity, but were sagging badly in the cold. If I had been budget conscious, I probably could have suffered with them for another 3 months from the dead of winter to mid spring, maybe by using a hot water bottle or something similar to keep them going, then got another ~150 cycles out of them in spring, summer and autumn before the weather got too cold again. I've still got every LiPo batter since then, and all running well.
How many cycles do you realistically think you are getting out of each set of SLAs? 50? 100? And they're what, about 1/3rd of the price. Do the maths, and it's a clear false economy. You've sunk the money now, but the goal should be to expect to replace them in 3-6 months, and SAVE, SAVE, SAVE, so you can get good quality LiPos when these die. (Almost certainly sooner than you expect).
The EV has been amazing by the way. 50km, two quick top-ups, one I paid for at my own house, the other was free at the local shopping centre. Now if only I could get one of these plugs onto my eBike. Free charging in 6 minutes flat.
My first LiPo lasted 3 years, and probably got close to 500 full cycles on them. They were still holding 90% of their capacity, but were sagging badly in the cold. If I had been budget conscious, I probably could have suffered with them for another 3 months from the dead of winter to mid spring, maybe by using a hot water bottle or something similar to keep them going, then got another ~150 cycles out of them in spring, summer and autumn before the weather got too cold again. I've still got every LiPo batter since then, and all running well.
How many cycles do you realistically think you are getting out of each set of SLAs? 50? 100? And they're what, about 1/3rd of the price. Do the maths, and it's a clear false economy. You've sunk the money now, but the goal should be to expect to replace them in 3-6 months, and SAVE, SAVE, SAVE, so you can get good quality LiPos when these die. (Almost certainly sooner than you expect).
The EV has been amazing by the way. 50km, two quick top-ups, one I paid for at my own house, the other was free at the local shopping centre. Now if only I could get one of these plugs onto my eBike. Free charging in 6 minutes flat.
DrkAngel
1 GW
- A history of multiple problems:
- Needs basic 10-15mph transportation but builds for ~30mph
Pushes 10-15mph speeds into inefficient-damaging torque range - Requires < 1C battery power but uses >3c battery power
Every cycle is 1000% as damaging - Optimal 11.25V DOD but squeezes down to ~10V DOD
Might be tripling the battery deterioration to squeeze the last pitiful saggy watts from battery.
Gentle pedaling (continuous) could give better range at better speed and help battery last 3 times as long? - Buys low capacity batteries to save money and weight ...
which increases C rate = greatly accelerating damage
Recommendations:- Build 1 eBike for basic use and use separate one for play
Posted up my 24V 14mph <$100 "kit" recommendation (20mph@36V )... ? - You seem incapable of not discharging to damaging voltage level ... try to realize that the LVC function of the controller is a last ditch safety to avoid catastrophic failure ... not your near empty level!
latecurtis
100 MW
Ok. I am finally glad we got that cleared up. Thanks. The article I found was referring to lithium batteries, not SLAs. Also whoever wrote the Currie manual must have been referring to lithium also as I know that Currie did have lithium battery packs also back then in 2013. They were a lot more money however.
I went down town and got drunk last night. My friend made me charge the old SLAs in his basement as he thought they were LIPO batteries. I did not feel like arguing with him and he also has a high power bill and two black cats that are into everything.
The mistake I made was charging them on the dirt floor. I don't know if there was concrete under the dirt but do know they must have charged in less than two hours then sat and discharged as I know that batteries cant be placed on concrete or dirt. I was kind of drunk and when the old SLAs failed I ditched them on the side of the road about a block away from my house.
To make matters worse the new controller is not here yet. ETA on that is Nov16 to Dec1. Free shipping from China will do that. It was my fault as charging on a dirt floor also was. I guess I will take the shopping cart and attempt to rescue the SLAs if they are still there. Also I am not going back down there until I get the new controller and break in the new SLAs according to the link DA posted as I just read it.
The only thing I am not doing is ordering a 48V charger. I cant afford it and will stick to charging in parallel at 1A per SLA. 4A for four SLAs. They will be all getting charged at the same time so none of them will be sitting around not charged.
Hopefully I can get a real battery pack from Luna Cycles. A 52V 20Ah pack should be good for cruising at 33 mph for awhile without damage to the battery. It would better suite my need for speed.
I was wondering about the bare cell section. How do you build your own battery? Also I did not see any batteries there that could power the 3300W AmpFlow motor. 36V * 100A = 3,600W which is minimum for that motor. probably 36V@120A would be better correct?
If I run dual AmpFlow motors in series for 6600W then a 72V * 100A for 7,200W is minimum requirements. Also a controller rated the same would be required. That folks is going to cost some money.
http://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4-Prismatic-Battery-and-Charger-Package-72V-Choose-from-40Ah-60Ah.aspx?gclid=CIT838jqkMkCFcmPHwod_R4LPg
I just checked and it looks like $6.000 to $10,000 for a 72V 100 to 200Ah pack capable of 300 to 600A discharges. I may never be able to afford something like that.
If I want to go 57mph for any length of time the 200Ah 72V pack would be the best choice right?
If anyone knows of something cheaper that would work please post it. Thanks. I got to go try to rescue the old SLAs so I have something to run before the new controller finally shows up. Thanks. Please post when you can.
LC. out.
I went down town and got drunk last night. My friend made me charge the old SLAs in his basement as he thought they were LIPO batteries. I did not feel like arguing with him and he also has a high power bill and two black cats that are into everything.
The mistake I made was charging them on the dirt floor. I don't know if there was concrete under the dirt but do know they must have charged in less than two hours then sat and discharged as I know that batteries cant be placed on concrete or dirt. I was kind of drunk and when the old SLAs failed I ditched them on the side of the road about a block away from my house.
To make matters worse the new controller is not here yet. ETA on that is Nov16 to Dec1. Free shipping from China will do that. It was my fault as charging on a dirt floor also was. I guess I will take the shopping cart and attempt to rescue the SLAs if they are still there. Also I am not going back down there until I get the new controller and break in the new SLAs according to the link DA posted as I just read it.
The only thing I am not doing is ordering a 48V charger. I cant afford it and will stick to charging in parallel at 1A per SLA. 4A for four SLAs. They will be all getting charged at the same time so none of them will be sitting around not charged.
Hopefully I can get a real battery pack from Luna Cycles. A 52V 20Ah pack should be good for cruising at 33 mph for awhile without damage to the battery. It would better suite my need for speed.
I was wondering about the bare cell section. How do you build your own battery? Also I did not see any batteries there that could power the 3300W AmpFlow motor. 36V * 100A = 3,600W which is minimum for that motor. probably 36V@120A would be better correct?
If I run dual AmpFlow motors in series for 6600W then a 72V * 100A for 7,200W is minimum requirements. Also a controller rated the same would be required. That folks is going to cost some money.
http://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4-Prismatic-Battery-and-Charger-Package-72V-Choose-from-40Ah-60Ah.aspx?gclid=CIT838jqkMkCFcmPHwod_R4LPg
I just checked and it looks like $6.000 to $10,000 for a 72V 100 to 200Ah pack capable of 300 to 600A discharges. I may never be able to afford something like that.
If I want to go 57mph for any length of time the 200Ah 72V pack would be the best choice right?
If anyone knows of something cheaper that would work please post it. Thanks. I got to go try to rescue the old SLAs so I have something to run before the new controller finally shows up. Thanks. Please post when you can.
LC. out.
Sunder
10 MW
latecurtis said:
*facepalm*
I'm not sure if that's an excuse or you just believed an old wive's tale, but there's nothing wrong with placing batteries on a concrete floor: http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/equipment-products/ask-experts-batteries-concrete
It seems to me that you're using every excuse under the sun to avoid accepting the reality that these batteries are not fit for purpose. That's not to say they are bad batteries, or you've been ripped off, but you can't buy a shoe and a knife, as a cheap tool, then complain they're not working well.
Sunder
10 MW
latecurtis said:
Why so specific 57mph?
If you want to travel 60mph for an extended length of time, go ICE. Even commercially built EVs don't last long at 60mph. We're just not there yet.
I wholeheartedly agree with DA. You need a work bike first, and a play bike second. If you're willing to commit to that (getting it working and deciding its too heavy to bring up stairs is not my definition of commitment), then I might be able to help you with some spare batteries/parts I have lying around. But I need to be convinced that I'm not wasting MY money. I sent you a kit last year, and while you did use it, it hardly seems you're committed to it.
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