Noisy spokes

[Chalo]

There are two styles of spoke wrenches.
"C" style where the opening looks like a typical wrench.
Use this one to do the bulk of the work.
"Diamond" style grabs the nipple more securely.
The opening to the diamond shape is smaller which barely fits the spoke diameter so is a bit more fiddly to use.
Use for final tension because it is less likely to damage the nipple / round the corners of the nipple.

Yes, this is also what I do. I use the standard Park Tool key for fast snugging up, because it's the quickest to manipulate (for me).

And I use a DT Swiss spoke key for bringing wheels to final tension, or doing tough truing jobs.

For what it's worth, I added a small countersink to the opening of the DT key so it gets on the nipple more easily, and I rounded and polished the edges of the wings so they don't wreck my fingers as badly after all-day wheel building sessions.

 

[DanGT86]

I have only used the cheap hub kits and it is just constant that a spoke or two is going to need tightening every other ride or so. I assumed it was just hub motor maintenance.

Its most likely the giant spokes the cheap hubs use. As long as you are aware of it you can get away with occasional maintenance.

I have always used Sapim butted 13/14g spokes and heavy duty rims like sun rhyno lite XL, Alex DX32, sun mtx 39, etc.

The only hub that has ever come loose is that first one when I didn't know I needed to stress it during the build. My 7kw mxus hub has never come loose despite riding it off road.

If you want to get really particular about it the wheel manufacturers have a kg spec for how much tension the rim wants. You can get a park tool spoke tension gauge and get them within spec. But as mentioned before if the spokes are too large then the proper force for the rim is not adequate to get the spoke stretch required to keep it tight.

 

[amberwolf]

I have only used the cheap hub kits and it is just constant that a spoke or two is going to need tightening every other ride or so. I assumed it was just hub motor maintenance.

If the spokes keep loosening, you should carefully examine the rim at the nipple holes in direct sunlight. If there is any deformation around the holes, or even worse: cracking, then you'll have to replace the rim and spokes to fix the problem, because this means the spokes require more tension than the rim can handle (usually because the spokes are too thick for the rim, common on prebuilt hubmotor wheels). Using thinner spokes will make a better wheel (there are a lot of threads about this with much more detail).


I'm using 13/14g butted spokes on my self-built 20" radially-laced rear wheels on the heavy cargo trike SB Cruiser. I don't have wheel failures from these in normal usage; only from sharp-edged potholes (which break rims and axles, but not spokes) and large road debris (stuff that falls off trucks/etc so close to me I can't avoid it).

I have had two spokes broken on one wheel, months (years, maybe?) apart that I didn't find a cause for, but none of the others did, even on the impact-encounter wheels.

I've broken more motor axles than spokes on this trike.


But on prebuilt hubmotors, I've had several wheel failures caused by too-thick spokes for the rims used, almost all of which were evident from the cracking and deformation of the rim around the nipple holes. There are pics of these in my various build threads, primarily in the old Crazybike2 thread, and probably in the DayGlo Avenger thread before that. Some of them kept breaking spokes (from the cyclic load changes at the elbow), some just kept loosening up.


FWIW, I can highly recommend the Sheldon Brown website for learning about the mechanics of bicycles and bicycle parts, which most ebikes are based on.

 

[gromike]

I bought my son an Adventon Pace 500 quite a few years ago. After he moved across the country I got the bike back. He only used it for a year, maybe all of two thousand miles, but radiating from every nipple hole on the rim were cracks.
It was a 500w Bafang geared hub motor in a 29 inch wheel and had 12 gauge spokes.

 

[hillslayer@]

If the spokes keep loosening, you should carefully examine the rim at the nipple holes in direct sunlight. If there is any deformation around the holes, or even worse: cracking, then you'll have to replace the rim and spokes to fix the problem, because this means the spokes require more tension than the rim can handle (usually because the spokes are too thick for the rim, common on prebuilt hubmotor wheels). Using thinner spokes will make a better wheel (there are a lot of threads about this with much more detail).


I'm using 13/14g butted spokes on my self-built 20" radially-laced rear wheels on the heavy cargo trike SB Cruiser. I don't have wheel failures from these in normal usage; only from sharp-edged potholes (which break rims and axles, but not spokes) and large road debris (stuff that falls off trucks/etc so close to me I can't avoid it).

I have had two spokes broken on one wheel, months (years, maybe?) apart that I didn't find a cause for, but none of the others did, even on the impact-encounter wheels.

I've broken more motor axles than spokes on this trike.


But on prebuilt hubmotors, I've had several wheel failures caused by too-thick spokes for the rims used, almost all of which were evident from the cracking and deformation of the rim around the nipple holes. There are pics of these in my various build threads, primarily in the old Crazybike2 thread, and probably in the DayGlo Avenger thread before that. Some of them kept breaking spokes (from the cyclic load changes at the elbow), some just kept loosening up.


FWIW, I can highly recommend the Sheldon Brown website for learning about the mechanics of bicycles and bicycle parts, which most ebikes are based on.

I have some Schwinn Axum 36 hole rims I will try lacing a motor into. I kinda figured the thick spokes are just going to take longer to stretch and I have been resisting tightening them up a bunch to speed the process up .

If the spokes keep loosening, you should carefully examine the rim at the nipple holes in direct sunlight. If there is any deformation around the holes, or even worse: cracking, then you'll have to replace the rim and spokes to fix the problem, because this means the spokes require more tension than the rim can handle (usually because the spokes are too thick for the rim, common on prebuilt hubmotor wheels). Using thinner spokes will make a better wheel (there are a lot of threads about this with much more detail).


I'm using 13/14g butted spokes on my self-built 20" radially-laced rear wheels on the heavy cargo trike SB Cruiser. I don't have wheel failures from these in normal usage; only from sharp-edged potholes (which break rims and axles, but not spokes) and large road debris (stuff that falls off trucks/etc so close to me I can't avoid it).

I have had two spokes broken on one wheel, months (years, maybe?) apart that I didn't find a cause for, but none of the others did, even on the impact-encounter wheels.

I've broken more motor axles than spokes on this trike.


But on prebuilt hubmotors, I've had several wheel failures caused by too-thick spokes for the rims used, almost all of which were evident from the cracking and deformation of the rim around the nipple holes. There are pics of these in my various build threads, primarily in the old Crazybike2 thread, and probably in the DayGlo Avenger thread before that. Some of them kept breaking spokes (from the cyclic load changes at the elbow), some just kept loosening up.


FWIW, I can highly recommend the Sheldon Brown website for learning about the mechanics of bicycles and bicycle parts, which most ebikes are based on.

I am just going to keep checking and tightening have 1000 miles on it and looking pretty good so far. I guess after 10,000 miles spokes might be stretched finally.

 

[marvin78]

Mang, lacing wheels or even trueing one, I've attempted it in the past but currently I just give that to my lbs to do it for me. I have the tools, I have the time I have the 'book knowledge' there are so many tutorials around and they all make it sound so simple.

I had more success lacing a wheel from scratch compared with trying to unbuckle a wheel, even if it's just a slight one from hitting a drop to hard. Even if I got it straight('ish) I'd end up with a wheel with a non uniform spoke tension and as such the tendency to buckle again. I just can't properly judge what the right spoke tension is... and 'hitting it with a hard metal object and listen to the ring' .. well according to my former music teacher I'm quite tone deaf so maybe that's why I keep failing at it.

Maybe it's something you get better at the more you do it, but that's hard if your current level of proficiency is below that of which you would find acceptable to ride ( hard ). Even if it wouldn't buckle because I tensioned it unevenly, the wheel would track a lot less steady in corners

.. or maybe I'm just a cheapskate and the answer is buying a spoke tension meter to set a good base. But almost none of the tutorials even mention them, they all make it sound like 'anyone should be able to just pluck a few spokes, pick the one with the tension which is 'right' and get the others to match'. I'm probably just to crap to do it like them

 

[PaPaSteve]

I had more success lacing a wheel from scratch compared with trying to unbuckle a wheel, even if it's just a slight one from hitting a drop to hard. Even if I got it straight('ish) I'd end up with a wheel with a non uniform spoke tension and as such the tendency to buckle again. I just can't properly judge what the right spoke tension is... and 'hitting it with a hard metal object and listen to the ring' .. well according to my former music teacher I'm quite tone deaf so maybe that's why I keep failing at it.

Trying to make a rim round again with only spoke tension is indeed quite hard to do.
Sometimes it helps to unlace a few spokes at the bent spot and then forcing the bend out with levers and blocks or clamps and blocks etc.

When building a wheel from scratch I measure the roundness of the rim.
First measure from the spoke hole to the other side then perpendicular across the rim.
Wood workers furniture clamp can often make the adjustment.
A heavy duty rim might need to jacked from the inner diameter.
Also check the rim for flat by placing on a table or such.

Last motorcycle wheel build was for a vintage bike and the new rims were from the UK.
They needed a fair bit of adjustment before the build.

 

[marvin78]

I only done one bicycle hub/wheel. Because I wanted to keep my rear hub when upgrading bikes so limited experience. I just made sure I had the right spoke lengths ( lbs, knowing exactly my rim and hub ), the rim was in excellent condition and the lacing part is then just following the pattern and making sure each spoke is showing equal thread. Then on the stand keep adjusting tension till it was true. My first mistake was not checking for vertical so I had to redo it a few times and after the first few rides I noticed I had some which needed quite some attention but luckily not so much the rim itself was bend. But as I said, that felt a lot easier since I could check what was the more uniform tension and adjust the one's off to match. Doing that with a wheel which has been damaged is near impossible. Heck even the lbs wasn't able to fix all the wheels I brought, they got a lot further with them then I would but they were never really the same I would always loose some trust in their tracking in corners even if they were ( almost ) 100% true. Always suspected even the lbs would often tension to much which would make the wheels bounce more.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

I kinda figured the thick spokes are just going to take longer to stretch

A general point I didn't see explicitly in this thread, that maybe will help (or maybe I just didn't read too carefully).

Thick, strong spokes bad. In fact, there is a place for them, but not so much for bicycle wheels.

Thick, strong spokes concentrate the load on one spoke instead of sharing it among many - this in turn concentrates the load on one eyelet of the hub and rim at a time. Thinner spokes stretch more, thus spring more, and the load is better spaced out among many points and not all focused in a sharp peak on one eyelet at a time. The peak loads are less this way.

With thick, strong rims and thick, strong hubs you can use thick, strong spokes to build strong wheels - for motorcycles. But bicycles don't (want to) weight that much, and so the hubs and rims aren't made that strong. They work instead by being 'springy' enough to work together to spread the load (the deflection is small compared to what you can force with the strength of your arms, but it's still there and acts to spread the load).

It's more of a symphony.

 

[amberwolf]

I have some Schwinn Axum 36 hole rims I will try lacing a motor into. I

Make sure you use the correct spokes for those rims. Most likely they are built to use 14/15g spokes at most, but you can check with the manufacturer to be sure.

Don't use the 12g/etc spokes that hubmotor-wheel sellers put in their wheels; you'd just be asking for future failures.

kinda figured the thick spokes are just going to take longer to stretch and I have been resisting tightening them up a bunch to speed the process up .

Thicker spokes don't take "longer" to stretch.

They take more tension to stretch.

That means that you have to apply more total tension to them than the correct guage of spoke for a particular rim, and it's common for them to require more tension than the rim is deisigned to take, and that causes the rim to fail, and the spokes can *never* be tensioned, becuase they just keep damaging the rim further with each retension.

The wheel gets built with all the tension it needs right up front, so you *should* tighten them to the correct tension to start with.

Not doing so means the spokes are under stress at the elbows, being flexed cyclicly, and the rim is under stress because it is unsupported. This can cause a wheel collapse from either broken spokes or a direct rim failure.

I am just going to keep checking and tightening have 1000 miles on it and looking pretty good so far. I guess after 10,000 miles spokes might be stretched finally.

If a wheel isn't stable after the initial build and perhaps a slight retension or two in the first few dozen miles (less than a hundred), it is probably broken and needs to be rebuilt with the correct parts.

If it's not working correclty after a thousand miles, it's not built right.

You *really* need to carefully examine your rim for the damage previously described, which is probably present.

If the rim is damaged, you could have a sudden complete wheel failure while riding. Depending on your riding conditions and any traffic around you, that could be fatal.

I guess we'll have a good idea of what happened if you stop posting at some point.

 

[hillslayer@]

CSC is the kit I have they also make high quality rims so the wheel looks pretty heavy duty . I think some information on here doesn't apply for every situation just because you had some junk wheels in the past doesn't mean they're all bad. I am keeping my spokes the correct tension most people throw these kits on don't do any maintenance and it goes a couple years before falling apart. You can't scare me that easy.

 

[amberwolf]

Not trying to "scare" you; trying to get you to see the possible consequences of ignoring the problem you are having with the wheel(s).

Regardless of what parts your wheel si built from, if your wheel is still having spokes loosen after a thousand miles, it's built wrong.

If it's not built wrong, then it's built from the wrong parts.

But it's up to you to decide what to do with any advice given.

I don't know what wheels you're actually running, because you say in a previous post that you've only used the cheap hub kits, and in the one I'm replying to now you say you have a "CSC" kit and imply that it has a high quality rim that "looks" heavy duty. You'd have to check with the actual company that built the rim (which will be labelled with it's manufacturer and model and sometimes other important specifications), to find out what spokes (or rather, what tensions) it was designed for.

I don't know who "CSC" is, in reference to the kit you're using (you'd have to link it here for us to see), as there are various places labelled as CSC that sell kits in a google search. Some are aliexpress, some have their own site, etc. The few I could see any closeup images of the wheels, including one thread here on ES, show a typical generic rim that is almost certainly not designed for the thick spokes used on them, but I have no reason to use my time to research what they are actually capable of--I'm not going to be using them, so I don't have to deal with the problems they may present.

 

[hillslayer@]

I am sure any of these mass production Chinese wheels are going to be far from perfect . If it starts to fail I already have a replacement rim to lace it up . My sister brought a Ride1up ebike half the spokes on the hub where super loose, quality control is lacking nowadays.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

I heard of a seminar Buckminster Fuller gave with engineering students. I had the pleasure of hearing him speak in person while I was at MIT, but I wasn't part of this seminar.

They built a geodesic dome using metal Venetian blind slats, and they used two per segment "to provide extra stiffness". As they completed the dome structure, it collapsed under it's own weight.

Then he had the students go back over it starting at the center/top and remove the extra slats - the dome re-erected itself.

Appropriate is appropriate. Inappropriate is not appropriate.

 

[amberwolf]

I am sure any of these mass production Chinese wheels are going to be far from perfect . If it starts to fail I already have a replacement rim to lace it up .

The spokes are loosening repeatedly? That *is* your failure warning.

My sister brought a Ride1up ebike half the spokes on the hub where super loose, quality control is lacking nowadays.

You may not want to hear about how these structurally work, or care, that's your choice, but it's not (just) the (lack of) QC, it's the too-thick spokes for the rim/etc.

Not a "nowadays" thing--pretty much been that way since the "beginning" of the mass-produced cheap hubmotors.

 

[hillslayer@]

The spokes are loosening repeatedly? That *is* your failure warning.



You may not want to hear about how these structurally work, or care, that's your choice, but it's not (just) the (lack of) QC, it's the too-thick spokes for the rim/etc.

Not a "nowadays" thing--pretty much been that way since the "beginning" of the mass-produced cheap hubmotors.

The rim is already ruined for any other spoke size the hub needs 12 gauge spokes due to the size of the holes . No easy fixes here so probably just need see if your right or not by using it.

 

[A-DamW]

The rim is already ruined for any other spoke size the hub needs 12 gauge spokes due to the size of the holes . No easy fixes here so probably just need see if your right or not by using it.

Maybe not an "easy" fix, but one that applied properly, has proven to work well:
"Spoke washers":
spoke washers at DuckDuckGo

There may be additional subtle benefits to over sized holes + spoke washers:
1. Spoke nipple can better align with spoke angle due to over sized rim holes, reducing stress where the spoke exits the nipple.
2. Spoke washers can slightly deform at the rim hole to conform to the above angle, and spread stress over a more even area.
3. Washers at the head(bend) of the spoke, pull the bend of the spoke closer to the hub flange spoke hole, reducing leverage
stress:
What kind of wheels use spoke washers/nipple washers?

4. Oh yeah, and spoke washers allow smaller (read MORE elastic) spokes to be used on too-big-of-hole setups.

 

[hillslayer@]

Now I am starting to understand why mid-drives are superior to hub motors none of this spoke bs is an issue.

 

[E-HP]

Now I am starting to understand why mid-drives are superior to hub motors none of this spoke bs is an issue.

Not sure it would be spokes that would make them superior, because you can just get a good rim and the right spokes and never have an issue. Mid-drives win at climbing hills slowly, and doing it with low power.

 

[hillslayer@]

Not sure it would be spokes that would make them superior, because you can just get a good rim and the right spokes and never have an issue. Mid-drives win at climbing hills slowly, and doing it with low power.

I realize they are just about the only way to go if you have hills the spoke thing is just another reason. I will go back to a mid-drive only if maintenance on the hub starts to become a problem.

 

[E-HP]

I realize they are just about the only way to go if you have hills the spoke thing is just another reason. I will go back to a mid-drive only if maintenance on the hub starts to become a problem.

A hub does great on hills as long as you monitor temps and aren’t required to go slow, like on a steep single track.

 

[Shockwave]

Hey guys, I finally was able to test it out today, after tightening each spoke a 1/4 turn and that fixed the clicking noise, thanks much...

 

[99t4]

Suggest you closely inspect the rim spokeholes for cracks forming there, maybe weekly, or after each half dozen rides?

As others have described, the overly thick 12ga spokes are mismatched to the cheap rim. If you are able to tension the spokes sufficiently that can overly stress the rim at the spoke holes and that's where the cracks initiate.

 

[Shockwave]

Suggest you closely inspect the rim spokeholes for cracks forming there, maybe weekly, or after each half dozen rides?

As others have described, the overly thick 12ga spokes are mismatched to the cheap rim. If you are able to tension the spokes sufficiently that can overly stress the rim at the spoke holes and that's where the cracks initiate.

Thanks much, I will definitely keep my eye on it

 

[dgc]

When I build wheels for my E-Bikes I mostly use Ryde rims along with Sapim Strong spokes be it for a hub or mid drive system, I have had it where a shop brought rear wheel had started creaking after 25 - 30 miles, thought it was the mid-drive, switched it from the AKM to a spare TSDZ2 and yes creaking still there, cheap spokes, rebuilt the wheel with the Sapim spokes, took about an hour, friend has got the bike now with about 3500 miles on it. I found the Strong spokes are great in that they are a 13g / 14g single butted spoke, finally I always used a 36 spoke rim when I build a wheel using a double spoke crossing on both sides. Have started trying ready built wheel again but more particular on their spec.