NuVinci Users .. Strongest Rim you have used?

[LI-ghtcycle]

I'm going to see about using a NuVinci rear wheel on a really high-powered E-Bike, and I don't want to go to the point where the hub will be the weakest link, but I want to get right to that edge, as I plan on putting around 50 ft/lbs of torque to the rear wheel using a mid-drive motor.

I know that I can use 16 in motorcycle rims, but I'm not sure that is the best way to go, as it might just be way more heavy and stronger than needed.

In the end, I might end up having to just use a motorcycle rear wheel and use a fixed gear ratio from the motor, but I'd love to be able to explore the limits of the NuVinci, especially when it's designed to handle 96 ft/lbs of input torque at the hub.

http://www.fallbrooktech.com/sites/default/files/videos/NuVinci_Technical_Manual.pdf

 

[kriskros]

i use a 20" rear whell from recumpence...it is 32 spoke alominum with 13g spokes... power is 44,4v liipo ..50v 40amp lyen controller...molto\ir is 1200w cyclone. with a 360 nuvinc..about 400 miles,no problems

 

[Farfle]

Check out the triple wall odyssey bmx rim, recumpences rim, the Alex DX32 and the steel moped rims from johnrobholmes

 

[amberwolf]

My orignal (and still "ideal") plan for the NV is in this thread:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=31255
down in this post
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=455605#p455605
are some of the first idead using the NV; it would end up as the pivot point for the swingarm. Dual freewheels on it's input shaft would receive power from pedals and motor, and sprocket on it's disc brake mount or spoke flanges would output power to the chain for the wheel on the ohter end of the swingarm.
eidt: like this
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=472458#p472458

Complete motorcycle wheel is planned for the rear wheel, to hold up the cargo even on bad roads without breaking.

But even just a good normal doublewall rim and good doublebutted spokes might survive lighter cargos (most of my stuff) even on roads here, if it's on a good suspension, without the weight of the NV in the hub.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

My orignal (and still "ideal") plan for the NV is in this thread:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=31255
down in this post
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=455605#p455605
are some of the first idead using the NV; it would end up as the pivot point for the swingarm. Dual freewheels on it's input shaft would receive power from pedals and motor, and sprocket on it's disc brake mount or spoke flanges would output power to the chain for the wheel on the ohter end of the swingarm.
eidt: like this
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=472458#p472458

Complete motorcycle wheel is planned for the rear wheel, to hold up the cargo even on bad roads without breaking.

But even just a good normal doublewall rim and good doublebutted spokes might survive lighter cargos (most of my stuff) even on roads here, if it's on a good suspension, without the weight of the NV in the hub.

great thanks!

 

[kriskros]

joihn holmes has some moped rims....items for sale,new

 

[amberwolf]

I thought I had more details of how I was going to set it up in that thread, but I guess not. So, a few pics of what I had planned to make the swingarm pivot (which I'll copy to that thread too):

The NV has an "adapter" on the shifter-rod end of the axle, mostly to hold the shifter rod in place while it forces the mechanism inside to move as it's worm gear is turned. But it also enables another possibility: using similar adapters on *both* ends of the axle to let bearings ride on them for the swingarm pivot, and secure the axle to whatever pivot-point/dropout I make for it.
View attachment 2

It just needs to have these machined so they can thread onto the existing axle, as the present rightside adapter does, but with an outer diameter that fits the bearings you choose:





In my case the swingarm itself would bolt together as an "H", with the joining bar almost all the way up the "verticals", almost at the pivot point itself.

The side pieces (arms themselves) could be the aluminum ones off that Suzuki dirtbike:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=70614
minus the darker-colored greasy "H" that's very heavy.


And the new "H" made from these pieces of old treadmill frame:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=456068#p456068

with a shock pivot so I can still use this:

Someone has already used these same arms on a bike:

although they butchered up the ends to fit the existing bike pivot and axle, and I will be using the existing ends to match the MC axle and tensioners., and the boltholes to connect the arms to the pivot point module (H).


You could use this same basic method to do this on any bike.

 

[Chalo]

I'm going to see about using a NuVinci rear wheel on a really high-powered E-Bike, and I don't want to go to the point where the hub will be the weakest link, but I want to get right to that edge, as I plan on putting around 50 ft/lbs of torque to the rear wheel using a mid-drive motor.

There are all kinds of 20" rims that are sturdy enough to use for plummeting out of the sky without a parachute. But a large diameter hub like the NuVinci is a better match mechanically for a full sized wheel-- 26" or 700c.

I laced an Alex DM24 to my NuVinci-- and at $20-30 that's the strongest rim for the money that I am aware of-- but there are even stronger rims available if cost is not too pressing a factor. The Velocity Psycho looks just like the Alex DM24, but is at least 25% heavier, with tighter quality control. The Velocity Chukker has an uncompromisingly optimized rim shape, and is not lacking in material either. The Velocity P35 is an excellent choice if you want to use fat tires and disc brakes-- all its meat is reserved for structural integrity and not for braking surface. The Alex DX32 is more biased towards size than strength, but there is still a lot of it to go around. The Sun MTX39 disc-only rim is just ridiculously beefy. All the non-windowed Kris Holm mountain unicycle rims are beastly strong.

Weinmann (a cheap rim maker) recently introduced a family of rims that are formidably heavy and strong, but all double-walled aluminum for structural efficiency. The DHL42, DHL65 (comparable to the Surly Large Marge), DHL80, and DHL100 are all named for their width in millimeters. Conveniently, the width of the rims corresponds approximately to the narrowest tires that should be mounted on them. Respectively, that would be 26x1.75", 26x2.4", 26x3", and 26x3.7". Any one of these rims meets or exceeds the structural limits of all the other rims anyone here has mentioned. And they all cost from $35-$60 retail.

If you want to use a 26" tire in a normal MTB size, and you want the beefiest rim a modest amount of money will buy, go to your LBS and order a pair of Weinmann DHL42 rims. They can source the rims from J&B Importers for about $35 each.

 

[Farfle]

If you are looking for stout, bike parts are awesome for their weight. I have run an 18hp bike at 70 mph on bike wheels for several thousand miles. Pound for pound bike parts are better than moped parts, but as far as ultimate strength goes, moped wheels are your friend. 16" moped wheel is roughly 21" OD.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

I'm going to see about using a NuVinci rear wheel on a really high-powered E-Bike, and I don't want to go to the point where the hub will be the weakest link, but I want to get right to that edge, as I plan on putting around 50 ft/lbs of torque to the rear wheel using a mid-drive motor.

There are all kinds of 20" rims that are sturdy enough to use for plummeting out of the sky without a parachute. But a large diameter hub like the NuVinci is a better match mechanically for a full sized wheel-- 26" or 700c.

I laced an Alex DM24 to my NuVinci-- and at $20-30 that's the strongest rim for the money that I am aware of-- but there are even stronger rims available if cost is not too pressing a factor. The Velocity Psycho looks just like the Alex DM24, but is at least 25% heavier, with tighter quality control. The Velocity Chukker has an uncompromisingly optimized rim shape, and is not lacking in material either. The Velocity P35 is an excellent choice if you want to use fat tires and disc brakes-- all its meat is reserved for structural integrity and not for braking surface. The Alex DX32 is more biased towards size than strength, but there is still a lot of it to go around. The Sun MTX39 disc-only rim is just ridiculously beefy. All the non-windowed Kris Holm mountain unicycle rims are beastly strong.

Weinmann (a cheap rim maker) recently introduced a family of rims that are formidably heavy and strong, but all double-walled aluminum for structural efficiency. The DHL42, DHL65 (comparable to the Surly Large Marge), DHL80, and DHL100 are all named for their width in millimeters. Conveniently, the width of the rims corresponds approximately to the narrowest tires that should be mounted on them. Respectively, that would be 26x1.75", 26x2.4", 26x3", and 26x3.7". Any one of these rims meets or exceeds the structural limits of all the other rims anyone here has mentioned. And they all cost from $35-$60 retail.

If you want to use a 26" tire in a normal MTB size, and you want the beefiest rim a modest amount of money will buy, go to your LBS and order a pair of Weinmann DHL42 rims. They can source the rims from J&B Importers for about $35 each.

Thank you for chiming in Chalo!

I am very interested in a strong enough bicycle rim over an overly heavy/strong motorcycle rim, but I really like the idea of DOT tires for their design to be used at the speeds I want to go with, and being a powered wheel, forces that bicycle components aren't generally designed for.

I will be using disc, so which ever bicycle rim that will do the job best is what I am looking for, and best bang for my buck.

My other concern is being able to run lighter DOT tires so that I can still get them on with out using 12" long tire irons, but that wouldn't be the end of the world, I'm looking for the increased durability and side wall strength that DOT tires provide.

This bike will only be pedal powered so that it can still be called a E-Bike, but it's primary purpose will be reliable power that will rival a small motorcycle for use at the local race track.

If there is a corresponding DOT tire that would fit a 26" bicycle rim with minimal effort to bead up, that is ideal. The only reason I considered smaller rims sizes was to get a stronger wheel, and match DOT tires, but you make a good point

About how the NuVinci hub is optimized for a 26" or 700c rim, and the less stress on the spokes, the better.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

If you are looking for stout, bike parts are awesome for their weight. I have run an 18hp bike at 70 mph on bike wheels for several thousand miles. Pound for pound bike parts are better than moped parts, but as far as ultimate strength goes, moped wheels are your friend. 16" moped wheel is roughly 21" OD.

Ok, so the reason you have now switched to motorcycle (moped?) rims on your E-Motard bike here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=34880&start=120

I assumed it was to make it easier to use DOT tires, or was it for the increased power to the rear wheel?

What I am wanting to avoid is undue stress on the wheel with a high torque mid-drive motor, but I want to use lighter DOT tires, I won't be knee-dragging through corners, so a larger contact patch isn't as much a concern as the durability of

DOT over a bicycle rated tire. (no flats would be nice too! and weight isn't a much of a concern as this bike will never be pedaled)

 

[Chalo]

I am very interested in a strong enough bicycle rim over an overly heavy/strong motorcycle rim, but I really like the idea of DOT tires for their design to be used at the speeds I want to go with, and being a powered wheel, forces that bicycle components aren't generally designed for.

That's a tricky one. The only relatively common size that bicycles and motorcycles have in common is 20". And if you want to use DOT tires on a 20" bicycle rim, you'll need a very wide one.

In the past, I've considered using a motorcycle rim and tire in 2.50-21, 2.75-21. or 3.00-21 size. One of those would yield a wheel in the same general inflated diameter range as a mountain bike wheel. I think you can get relatively light aluminum motocross rims in that size, too.

And there are a scant few motorcycle tires, including road racing tires, available in 3.00-20. That should fit on a 24" MTB/BMX, chopper, or downhill rim-- in principle anyway.

Tires in that size won't be cheap, though.

Chalo

 

[Farfle]

MC tires are hard to find in bike tire sizes. Wide 20" rims like the Alex dx32 and the Pirelli. ML-75 make a great combo, but the odd is only 21.5".

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Hmmm, well it looks like when I build my fast bike it will most likely be sporting a 16" moped rim, and Pirelli ML 75 tires.

I looked for a bunch of the larger MC sized tires, 19, 20, 21, and none of them are as narrow as I would like, or as common.

Thanks for all the info guys!

The heavy duty 20in bicycle rims have me the most interested so far, since a 20 inch wheel is generally stronger, I know it won't roll as efficiently pedaling as a 700c, but I'll be using power almost exclusively with this build, not much pedaling.

I'll check and see if my local MC shop sells the ML 75's or can get them easily enough, and I will try a nice wide BMX rim, at least this way I know I won't be putting extra stress on the hub with a overly heavy or built MC rim, and I want to keep with

bicycle equipment as much as possible with out compromising strength, seems to be about the right compromise.

 

[Farfle]

Not sure how beefy the nuvinci spoke flanges are, but 12/13 or if they are thin/cast then 13/14 butted spokes, a decent 20" rim, and a moped tire will take a ton of abuse.

 

[amberwolf]

The 171B is machined aluminum, similar to a typical hubmotor flange, but I suspect stronger. Looks over 2mm wide for each spoke hole. Dunno about the 360.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Not sure how beefy the nuvinci spoke flanges are, but 12/13 or if they are thin/cast then 13/14 butted spokes, a decent 20" rim, and a moped tire will take a ton of abuse.

Yeah, I plan on using 13/14 butted spokes, and I have a large flange hub (drum brake) that is 20 inch on the front of my recumbent that has performed quite well, but the 26 inch wheel in the back with the NuVinci is the one that have really taken the abuse and cargo loads, I have had one spoke brake, but that's all, and it's stayed pretty much true even with that.

I have not liked how 12G spokes have cracked the rim of my original Amped Bikes DD 9 x 7 motor, and I know that Champion is not the highest quality rim, but I have learned a lot about how wheels work and what has been proven to carry heavy loads on cargo bicycles, and I am convinced that the use of 12G spokes is generally more a problem than a help (unless you're using a REALLY tough bicycle rim, or MC/Moped rim) but I've not been able to see it in person, so I won't say that 12G can't work.

All the training I have received from UBI and talking with one of their former instructors who now builds wheels for a living, at least in the un-powered wheels in the bicycle world, even with crazy heavy cargo loads, the spoke count and proper lacing, and right tension (too much can often be worse than too little! learned that one the hard way myself hehe) but I am sure there are forces introduced by especially higher powered E-Bikes that bicycles would never see, and I might end up beefing things up if the NuVinci allows, but so far, I haven't had a problem with 2000 Watts+ on my heavily loaded cargo bike and a pretty standard 2X lacing in a 26 inch wheel for the NuVinci and 13/14 butted Sapim spokes.

I also appreciate all the input of you all here, thanks a ton!

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

The 171B is machined aluminum, similar to a typical hubmotor flange, but I suspect stronger. Looks over 2mm wide for each spoke hole. Dunno about the 360.

Yeah, the 360 is really the biggest " ? " for me, I have been using 171B's so far, and the 360 is more refined, but I think less robust, especially in the flange where they seemed to slim it down IIRC.

I have access to some 171B's to play with, no N360's yet, but once I do, I will be more cautious since they are rated for only 500 Watts IIRC

 

[izeman]

how about those rims: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=46616
not cheap, but they should fit the pirelli ml75 as well. what's the minimum rim width needed for those rubbers?

 

[izeman]

or those: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Sun-Ringle-Estate-Rim-36H-black-20-Zoll-BMX-Felge-/140862188491?pt=Sport_Radsport_Fahrradteile&hash=item20cc0a6bcb#ht_806wt_1139