Old unknown Ebike - Restoration/Upgrade

[Cowardlyduck]

Hi all

So a friend of mine gave me his old E-bike since it's been broken for some time and he doesn't ride it any more.

***EDIT***
After much searching, 2+ years later, I did finally find a replacement BB for this bike and started a restoration/upgrade project with it. Skip to the restoration/upgrade here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=53322&p=1122217#p1122217

I have no idea what make or model it is, since it has no markings on it whatsoever and the shop he bought it from isn't in business any more.

The electrics still work fine, and it can still maintain about 25kmh, however the battery is pretty crap, and I will probably replace it with LiPo @ 48V eventually.

The part that's broken is the bottom bracket. Snapped clean! He reckons a car backed into the bike and took off when it was locked up outside one time.

Anyway, I can't seem to find any bottom brackets this wide to replace it. Does anyone know where I can find one?
The other alternative which is probably better is to use an internal BB that fits. Does anyone know which BB would work in a shell this wide.

Cheers

 

[Drunkskunk]

That looks like a 100mm bb. There are plenty available from the fat bike craze, but this may be the best match:

http://www.choppersus.com/store/product/792/Extra-Wide-Bottom-Bracket-Axle/

 

[Ykick]

Easy fix - good little frame and Bafang motor to play with. Rear drum brake might complicate repower options but all in all that's a very good platform to land in your lap!

 

[Cowardlyduck]

That looks like a 100mm bb. There are plenty available from the fat bike craze, but this may be the best match:

http://www.choppersus.com/store/product/792/Extra-Wide-Bottom-Bracket-Axle/

Hey Thanks for the reply.
I did see that BB, however assumed it wasn't long enough based on the overall measurements...am I measuring it wrong though?
Where do you measure a BB from/to? The overall length of my BB seems to be about 190mm from end to end.

Easy fix - good little frame and Bafang motor to play with.

Good to know.
I'm planning on using it as a more appropriate commuter over my Stealth, since I feel I'm pushing my luck sometimes riding it daily on the same route.

Rear drum brake might complicate repower options but all in all that's a very good platform to land in your lap!

What do you mean by this? The rear stay's have mounts for rim brakes, so I could always cut off the drum brake and use those instead.

Thanks for the replies.

Cheers

 

[Drunkskunk]

Hey Thanks for the reply.
I did see that BB, however assumed it wasn't long enough based on the overall measurements...am I measuring it wrong though?
Where do you measure a BB from/to? The overall length of my BB seems to be about 190mm from end to end.
[img={500}X{500}]http://s11.postimg.org/5xfx3rfmr/CAM00056.jpg[/img].....

The right way to measure the spacing is from the bearing shoulder to other bearing shoulder. you start the measurement where the shaft is flat and just starting to curve up to that rib at either end. it can be tricky to spot, but there are only a few basic sizes, so you only have to get it close.

In your pic, the left shoulder starts right at the 4cm line on that measuring tape, and the right shoulder starts right at the other 4 (14cm). That makes the bottom bracket width 10 Cm, or 100mm. The outside width is is measured from the outer edges of the square taper, ignoring the threaded sections, so about 180mm

 

[Rassy]

When I was messing around with a GNG unit I purchased a bike with a 3 piece crank and was surprised when I took the crank apart that it had serviceable bearings instead of a cartridge. However, the GNG supplied cartridge had the same threads (one side reverse threads) and installed fine.

So you might be able to replace that bottom bracket axle with a cartridge if the threads are the same.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Thanks for the replies guy's.
I've sent of an email to that website asking them to confirm it's a match, then I'll place an order if it does.

It's great help like this that makes this forum a must read for me almost every day.

Thanks again.

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Dang
According to a reply from Cycles U.S. I got today, that extra wide Bottom Bracket is not a match for mine...not sure why though, I've asked them to clarify.

So the question likely still stands, does anyone know where I can find a replacement bottom bracket for this E-bike?

Or, as has been suggested, would it be possible to get a sealed cartridge to fit? I have no idea about these things so wouldn't have a clue what might work.

Cheers

 

[Chalo]

Measure the width of the bottom bracket shell. If it's 68, 70, 73, 83, or 100mm, then you can get a bottom bracket for it.

I de-electrified an older R Martin e-bike once, and discovered that it had an 83mm bottom bracket. That is an available size, but I don't know of any that will fit your square taper cranks.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I still haven't sorted out the bottom bracket for this. It's currently with a work college pending an attempt to weld then grind the original back into life. We'll see how that goes.

In the mean time though, I did some messing around with the motor. I tried hooking up a new little 6 Fet controller together with my old Stealth Fighter 48V battery.
It worked great for about 5min, then something went bad inside the motor and it didn't provide much thrust.

I let it sit since then for the last 4 months or so, and finally got around to opening up the motor to take a look last night.
Hooking it up now, whilst open on one side, it seems to spin fine. It also turns fine under power.
It will freewheel fine, however when turning it backwards it seems to cog very strongly as if there were a short. I'm not sure if that indicates something or not. I tested for shorts on all the phases to the motor casing/axle and there are none. I also tested the phases and halls using an ebike tester and everything checks out.
I'm thinking the planetary gears might be wrecked, but when I had the motor apart, I couldn't see any way to get to them. The side cover only seems to come off on one side.
How do you access the planetary gears on these motors with a drum brake?

Cheers

 

[alsmith]

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html as always! Gives advice on alternatives that will fit too.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_bo-z.html as always! Gives advice on alternatives that will fit too.

Thanks. Did see that previously, however saw nothing that helps with this bike's situation unfortunately.

I'm probably going to pass it on soon anyway. I've had it for long enough without making any progress, and it's just taking up room now.

Cheers

 

[250W]

Hey Cowardlyduck,

Any luck with this extra wide bb axle? I have exaclty the same bike with exactly the same problem! And I'm absolutely stuck with it too!!! Nowhere to go, not even places like aliexpress can help :x

 

[athletic91]

I suggest getting a new crank and BB, won't cost much. I assume you are running a single chain ring and also a pas plastic disc

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sg/en/truvativ-isoflow-1-0-square-taper-single-chainset/rp-prod105886

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sg/en/shimano-un26-square-taper-bottom-bracket/rp-prod34652
I'm sure one of the bb options will fit your bike, you should email CRC to confirm.

 

[fasteddy]

Try these chaps. First rate to deal with and should have the length your looking for.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sickbikeparts.com%2F&ei=zhM1U-3FLcjnqAHfiIGwBw&usg=AFQjCNHI3CSttEVm2nTFzSCtAxrg3AFGXQ&bvm=bv.63808443,d.cWc&cad=rja

Steve.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I was never able to sort this out in the end. I've still got the bike, but have pretty much given up on it and will likely sell or trade it soon.

Unfortunately neither of those links will do the job. The BB shell width is too wide for the CRC stuff, and none of the sick bike parts BB stuff has the right race width.

The only one that comes close is this one.
http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=114
http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/images/206mm.jpg
But I think it would still not fit inside the shell of this frame.

Cheers

 

[250W]

Ouch! Thanks for the answers, guys. I'm still tempted to get this one http://www.choppersus.com/store/product/792/Extra-Wide-Bottom-Bracket-Axle/ - it got to fit even though it's a little bit shorter. The shoulder dimenstion is the same, that's what matters.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Ouch! Thanks for the answers, guys. I'm still tempted to get this one http://www.choppersus.com/store/product/792/Extra-Wide-Bottom-Bracket-Axle/ - it got to fit even though it's a little bit shorter. The shoulder dimenstion is the same, that's what matters.

Just be careful ordering from them. The guy I dealt with was a bit of a jerk, they don't accept paypal, and shipping was far too much for me to stomach.

If it does end up fitting, please let us know.

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

It's only been over 2 years since I first started trying to restore this bike , but I never fully gave up, and my persistence is looking like it might finally pay off!

I finally found a bottom bracket that was able to fit.
http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalo...ucts_id=214&osCsid=353qqo9frlc06sr8jl1ohbgvh3

The adjustable nature of the bearing/cup in this bottom bracket is what made it possible to get this to work. Since it does not have a fixed cup width on one side and the bearing is held inside the cup, this bottom bracket axle can fit any size shell from 83-110mm wide...just what I needed.
The only problem I found with it, was the threading on the cups did not seem to match up properly to my shell. I tried for hours to get it both sides to thread on, but could not. One side was able to thread so in the end I used it. I managed to destroy the other cup trying to replace it's bearing after I tried removing it to put in a different cup unsuccessfully. So on that side I ended up using a standard cup that would thread on properly, but with a slightly smaller bearing which I jammed into place with some cloth. It's not a perfect fit around the axle (2mm too big) and not held into place inside the cup like the original. I realize it might not hold, but for now with all the standing on the pedals I have managed it hasn't moved at all...so fingers crossed. If it does fail, I will get a replacement cup from SickBikeParts and probably hammer it into place in the shell with some epoxy to hold it. It doesn't matter how it's held in...once it's in there, as long as it stay's in place...I never plan to remove it.
Anyway, I'll let the images show how it looks.

I also had a go at fitting the HS4080 from my Stealth Fighter which has caused me never ending problems with stripped axle threads. I recently used an M12 die to cut it's threads from 1/2" UNF down to a very close thread pitch in M12. This worked great, and it just so happens to match the M12 of the previous geared motor that was on this bike perfectly, although the horizontal dropout's are 10mm flats like any, so it wouldn't matter if the motor axle was M14 either.
The axle shoulders also happen to fit perfectly. I couldn't have asked for a more perfect fit...and I wasn't even trying to make it fit.

It might look a bit wacky with the 24" wheel in the rear, but I quite like how it looks TBH. The 3" tire more than makes up for the smaller wheel size, and just manages to fit the frame.
The weight feels a bit ridiculous compared to the crappy geared hub motor it replaced, but once powered I'm sure I won't care any more.
I need to figure something out with the brakes though. The previous motor had a screw on drum brake...which is obviously not going to work with this motor. There is a single mount on the disc side that might work, but I'm not sure. I might just end up relying on Regen only for the rear...we'll see.

I also pulled apart it's old battery, confirming in the process it's date of origin...2010, which is about what I suspected.

These are 22650 cells which I didn't even realize was a size till I saw these. It's a 10S5P setup, so with these 2050mah (original capacity) cells that's a theoretical ~380Wh...back when it was new.
I individually tested all cells, and found most were around 4V. I recently charged it after it had been sitting for over a year uncharged.
One parallel group of 5 is down at just over 3V and another group has reversed polarity and is at -1.6V. I am a bit confused about the reversed polarity cells as I didn't think that could happen to LiPo cells, but don't actually know the exact chemistry of these cells, just that they are 3.7V nominal.
I think I will dismantle this pack and hang onto the good cells. No idea what they could be useful for, but I'm not one to throw out perfectly good cells.

So from here I plan to see what I can fit inside the existing battery container. I'm hoping I can cram in a bunch of 6S Zippy Compacts I've been using on my other bikes. They are at over 200 cycles now, so ready to be downcycled and have a less dramatic life at lower amps...although I'm not so sure this bike will really be that much lower amps.
I plan to re-use my old 18Fet Infineon controller I used to have mounted to my Fighter. It's got an annoying intermittent issue with detecting hall sensors that I've never been able to fix, but I lived with it for a long time on the Fighter, so I plan to do the same on this bike if I can.

I also plan to crack open the old motor to see if it's at all salvageable. I'm pretty sure it's just got stripped planetary gear teeth, as it was still pulling last time I used it, but as soon as I loaded it, it would make a sound like slipping teeth and stop pulling. I'm not sure if it will be worth it to buy replacement gears or not...depends on the cost and certainty of a good fit I think.

Sorry for the epic post...I'm just exited to finally be getting this old thing back up and running again.

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Pulled apart the old battery just now.

Looks like there's still a decent amount of usable cells left.

I won't use the cell holders, or BMS...does anyone want these? I imagine 22650 cell holders might be hard to come by these day's. And the BMS to me is just a battery murdering system. It already failed to protect this battery pack once! Does anyone want the BMS?
If anyone does want them, I'm happy to send them your way if you cover postage.

I'm not 100% sure what I will do with these cells yet. My electric cordless wiper snipper (line trimmer for the US folk) died on me over the weekend. So I plan to buy a cheap used one and modify it with these cells if possible.
What ever is left I think I will re purpose back into the battery for this bike in parallel with the Zippy Compact cells. I think that without the cell holders and BMS, I should be able to fit a very decent amount of capacity into the old metal battery shell.

Cheers

 

[slowhands]

About your problem getting the new BB to fit the existing bike BB threads, there are some cases where the chinese changed the thread to metric from inch. They went to 1mm thread pitch, about 25.4 threads per inch, and made the BB cups to match. As long as you use a similar thread, all is well. But Historically, most BBs used a thread pitch of 24TPI, which is close but will cross thread. SBP BBs use 24TPI. OOPs.

If you use the old BB cups, you may be OK.

You wrote:
this bottom bracket axle can fit any size shell from 83-110mm wide...just what I needed.
The only problem I found with it, was the threading on the cups did not seem to match up properly to my shell. I tried for hours to get it both sides to thread on, but could not. One side was able to thread so in the end I used it. I managed to destroy the other cup trying to replace it's bearing after I tried removing it to put in a different cup unsuccessfully. So on that side I ended up using a standard cup that would thread on properly, but with a slightly smaller bearing which I jammed into place with some cloth. It's not a perfect fit around the axle (2mm too big) and not held into place inside the cup like the original. I realize it might not hold, but for now with all the standing on the pedals I have managed it hasn't moved at all...so fingers crossed. If it does fail, I will get a replacement cup from SickBikeParts and probably hammer it into place in the shell with some epoxy to hold it. It doesn't matter how it's held in...once it's in there, as long as it stay's in place...I never plan to remove it.
Anyway, I'll let the images show how it looks.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

About your problem getting the new BB to fit the existing bike BB threads, there are some cases where the chinese changed the thread to metric from inch. They went to 1mm thread pitch, about 25.4 threads per inch, and made the BB cups to match. As long as you use a similar thread, all is well. But Historically, most BBs used a thread pitch of 24TPI, which is close but will cross thread. SBP BBs use 24TPI. OOPs.

If you use the old BB cups, you may be OK.

Thanks. Yeah, I suspected something like that may be the case...and since this is such a generic no-name E-Bike, highly likely it would have non-standard threads like that.

The old cups might work with this BB axle, but they need loose ball bearings which will only really work on the one side of this axle. Funnily enough, my dodgied attempt with the non-original cup was on the side without the shoulder to hold the bearings in place, so if it works, then the old cups could have worked.
For now, I'm scared to remove the current cups unless I have to, for fear of it not being able to go back together. If things come loose on their own, I might try the old cups though, thanks for the tip!

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Made a bit more progress on the old battery restoration today.

I melted and cut parts of the plastic base to make a flat base with padding that is recessed.
It previously had a bunch of tall plastic spikes (I have no idea why) and a locking mechanism which took up most of the space available in that section.

This gives about 20-30mm more room length way's than it was stock which will help lower the center of gravity and allow more cells capacity if needed. It also allows me to fit 4 cells across the base.

I also hot glued the remaining good cells together.

I realised after gluing that the orientation isn't quite right for easy series connection, but it doesn't matter as I can easily correct it by running a few of the connecting wires through the middle of the cells instead.

I plan to solder 14awg wire to the middle of the parallel connections of each cell for the series connections. Since I only have these 8 groups of 5 left, and I didn't want to break the paralleled connections, it will only be an 8S5P, ~30V 11AH pack roughly 300Wh usable. It's not much, but at the slower speed this will get to, I hope it can still last a semi decent amount of time.

Cheers

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Today I had a go at running my HS4080 + 18Fet just loosely attached to the frame to quickly check everything worked and see how this old bike felt with some decent power.

Well it didn't last long...I stupidly didn't think I would need torque arms since I considered the dropouts would be strong steel due to this bike originally being an E-Bike to begin with.
This was the result of my first few meters of powered riding:

The axle spun in the dropouts wrapping the HS4080 's wires around the axle in the process.
I think the reduction of the axle nut diameter to M12 from 1/2" certainly didn't help, but I should still be able to make it work.
Amazingly, the motor wires still seem fine even though the outer layers of heat-shrink got mostly ripped off. I think the silicone sealant I pumped into/around the axle slot and the silicone rubber wrap I put all around it somehow saved the wires.

I can't test it to be sure just yet, but hopefully it's ok.

I think the dropouts are still salvageable. I will bend them back together, and not do any more powered riding without first adding some decent torque arms. I have a few V2 lying around, but I think I might need some of the V4 type torque arms to make it work:
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/torque-arms.html

Cheers

 

[Joachim]

The dropouts are not realy strong,only a single torque arm is stil not save i think best way is to beef up the dropouts and put 2 good torque arms on the bike.