Power drops out, clueless about why

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Hi, I’ve been reading dozens of posts trying to find a situation similar to my issue so that I don’t have to repeat a question. but mine is pretty unique so here I go.


A neighbor gave me a quadricycle (four wheel bike) that had been sitting in her garage for 15 years. Her husband had built it from a kit about 20 years ago and then added a Crystalyte 408 hub, Crystalyte CT3625 controller, and a throttle. That’s it, very basic. I received no instructions or manuals with it, and she didn’t know how it operated either. A bit of online sleuthing revealed that the hub is brushless and 500 watts. The controller is for 36vdc and 25 amp hour. She had thrown the batteries out years ago, but since it came with a 12volt lead acid charger, I’m guessing he used three 12V SLAs to operate it.


Armed with that limited info, I felt confident enough to buy a battery to try and get it going again.


I researched the company that made the quadracycle kit all those years ago, (American Speedster, still has a website) and fortunately the owner is still alive. (He is 82 years young.) He told me that years ago when he used to supply the accessory kit to electrify the bikes, he had used a Custom Battery Maker, so he gave me that man’s number.


I called that guy and had him build a 36 V battery for me. It is a 36 V 45 amp hour sodium battery. When I received it, it was pre-charged to 45.7 V, tested with a digital voltmeter directly at the battery. That seems kinda high to me for a 36 V battery, but knowing very little about the parameters of these components, I plugged it in and away I went. It worked great, starting the quadricycle from a dead stop and getting it up to 14 miles an hour with myself, my wife and my dog on board. We drove around our block a couple of times accelerating, decelerating, stopping, starting, and it worked flawlessly. When I parked it, it had 43.7 volts remaining in the battery, tested with a digital voltmeter at the battery. The next day we took it out and drove it around again, and it worked flawlessly, until it didn’t. All of a sudden the motor just stopped turning. Power had shut off, confirmed by the red “power on” lite on the throttle being extinguished. If I released the throttle and then twisted it again, power was back on, confirmed by the red light back on, but even the slightest amount of throttle would shut it down again. There are 3 lites on the throttle: ‘power’ (red), ‘high’ (green) and ‘low’ (yellow). The’ high’ and 'low’ are indicators of the amount of charge left in the battery, not speed settings. The red power light would go out when the power shut down, and the yellow ’low’ indicator would quickly flash as the power shut down.


The voltage measured at the battery when this problem occurred was 42.7 V.


I read in another post that maybe the controller sensed that I had a 48 V battery and was shutting down once I reached the low end of that charge. I didn’t think this was the case for me because the controller was so old it probably didn’t have that kind of sophistication. Also, it was clearly marked as a 36 V controller. But I put the drive wheel up on a jackstand and was able to run the motor with the wheel freely turning in the air. I ran the battery down to 37.6 V in hopes that maybe the controller would recalibrate itself for a 36 V battery. It did not; same results. Once the wheel was back on the ground, the power would shut off as soon as I applied the throttle.


There are no local bike shops who will touch this dinosaur so I appeal to the techno wizards in the forum to help me troubleshoot this old technology instead of simply throwing parts at it. Do you think it’s the controller, is it the battery management system, is it the hub? I do not have the ability or desire to take the controller apart and change components. If it’s the controller, I just need a recommendation for a basic controller that will handle this new 36 volt 45 amp hour battery and get this old crate going again. Also know that the connectors are of old 15-year-old design. Are adapters available to mate a new controller with an older hub? And if the hub went bad, same question; what’s a good quality replacement and are connection adapters available? I’m thinking it’s not the battery since that’s brand spanking new. Please keep the answers simple, I don’t have an oscilloscope or the skills to test or change any internal hub or controller components. I’m happy to provide any more information you need. I’m thankful for any help you may give me. My humble thanks. Bob
P.S. I’m desperate and frustrated. I just want to have fun with this goofy thing.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

I withdraw my earlier comment about your builder. That looks like a piece of junk for a battery, THe cells are glued together and all that protects against a cell-to-cell short circuit is the layer of PVC shrinkwrap on each cell, Some cells appear to have already come loose and torn the thin buss metal, Vibration will wear away the shrink wrap soon enough,

Yes, you are absolutely right. Upon further inspection, I found two of the darker colored metal strips that have torn and two soldered connections that are bad. One is about to fall off and the other is only half soldered. Yes, I agree, bad quality and workmanship all around. I just requested a FaceTime with the builder either now or tomorrow so that I can show him this and ask for a complete refund.
I was so excited for a while, now I’m bummed out again.
I’ll keep you updated. Thanks for the ammunition.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Yes, you are absolutely right. Upon further inspection, I found two of the darker colored metal strips that have torn and two soldered connections that are bad. One is about to fall off and the other is only half soldered. Yes, I agree, bad quality and workmanship all around. I just requested a FaceTime with the builder either now or tomorrow so that I can show him this and ask for a complete refund.
I was so excited for a while, now I’m bummed out again.
I’ll keep you updated. Thanks for the ammunition.

Just trying to stay out of the game here. If the battery maker says something along the lines of I’ll give you 50% back and you keep the battery, do you think I could put it back together and make it suitable for a non-stationary application?

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Just trying to stay out of the game here. If the battery maker says something along the lines of I’ll give you 50% back and you keep the battery, do you think I could put it back together and make it suitable for a non-stationary application?

I meant to say just trying to stay ahead of the game. Damn autocorrect.

 

[chuyskywalker]

Wonder what that board it if it isn't a BMS.

Could be a very cheap active-balancer-only type board. This kind of thing:

Amazon.com

Other's have already chimed in a bit, but that's...not a good battery build.

1. No BMS is a HUGE issue. You lack all the protections a battery pack should have.
2. Parallel groups are not properly isolated (glue together, as noted by other poster)
3. Whatever the little, multi-colored wires are going to are crossing over multiple other cell points which, overtime, will fray and lead to a nasty short
4. Not enough series connections to handle the expected load (this is why those melted, too much power was forced through the parallel connection which wasn't adequately built up to handle it because those cells don't have a direct series connection).
5. If there wasn't anything on top of these cells (like some padding or whatnot) I'd be very unhappy about that -- very little to prevent the cells from jumping about and hitting the exposed pos/neg metal posts on the lid.
6. In image 3638, you can see the plastic wrap of the cell has been melted off -- it's very lucky that happened on the negative side of the battery. If that was a positive side, the wall would be negative and it would have created a dead short on that cell.

Could this pack be saved? Sure! This isn't the worst I've seen, but it's absolutely not acceptable for most of the reasons above.

HOWEVER, I think it's entirely fair to distrust the builder to perform the fix. Some folks would say to give them a chance to make it right, and that's up to your discretion. The utter disregard for bare minimum in a battery pack ( #1: BMS ) would be a full-stop negative in my opinion -- it's the kind of battery that leads to fires, destruction, and in tragic cases, death.

There are reasonable situations in which to not use a BMS -- a pack you sell to someone else is never going to be one of those situations.

I’ll keep everyone updated as this unfolds.

IMO, the only way to have this "unfold" is that you return this (on their dime) and get your money back. You then take the money to someone else that actually builds good packs.

 

[E-HP]

Yeah, bad call, that.

From those three photos it looks like that battery is designed for a stationary application.

Definitely not for e-bikes. When I looked at their site (can’t find it now, since I found it using the business name on the receipt when it was posted), but they normally only make 12v and 24v batteries, and not for e-bikes.

 

[E-HP]

Could be a very cheap active-balancer-only type board. This kind of thing:

Amazon.com

Other's have already chimed in a bit, but that's...not a good battery build.

1. No BMS is a HUGE issue. You lack all the protections a battery pack should have.
2. Parallel groups are not properly isolated (glue together, as noted by other poster)
3. Whatever the little, multi-colored wires are going to are crossing over multiple other cell points which, overtime, will fray and lead to a nasty short
4. Not enough series connections to handle the expected load (this is why those melted, too much power was forced through the parallel connection which wasn't adequately built up to handle it because those cells don't have a direct series connection).
5. If there wasn't anything on top of these cells (like some padding or whatnot) I'd be very unhappy about that -- very little to prevent the cells from jumping about and hitting the exposed pos/neg metal posts on the lid.
6. In image 3638, you can see the plastic wrap of the cell has been melted off -- it's very lucky that happened on the negative side of the battery. If that was a positive side, the wall would be negative and it would have created a dead short on that cell.

Could this pack be saved? Sure! This isn't the worst I've seen, but it's absolutely not acceptable for most of the reasons above.

HOWEVER, I think it's entirely fair to distrust the builder to perform the fix. Some folks would say to give them a chance to make it right, and that's up to your discretion. The utter disregard for bare minimum in a battery pack ( #1: BMS ) would be a full-stop negative in my opinion -- it's the kind of battery that leads to fires, destruction, and in tragic cases, death.

There are reasonable situations in which to not use a BMS -- a pack you sell to someone else is never going to be one of those situations.


IMO, the only way to have this "unfold" is that you return this (on their dime) and get your money back. You then take the money to someone else that actually builds good packs.

Their site has a full page on each of the other chemistries and why they all need a BMS, then explaining the sodium in batteries don’t. Sort of an odd argument. Not sure if their safety argument makes sense, but they don’t explain why they wouldn’t need balancing.

 

[docw009]

Yes, the battery is relatively easy to rebuild safely because it uses terminals. If the cell diameter is 38nn, cell holders are available, as are precut bus bars

You can also proceed with glue, but you want something better than hot melt. Construction adhesive maybe, with additional paper insulation to prevent cell-to-cell shorts, They sell adhesive paper for this purpose. With stiff bus bar plates acting as a skeleton, you might not even need glue and maintain an air gap between cells for better cooling.

Any way, good luck with your discussions,

 

[chuyskywalker]

they don’t explain why they wouldn’t need balancing.

Maybe they're less likely to go out of balance? Weird then to include a balance-only board. (Or maybe it's the a bluetooth monitor-only board?)

Either way, doesn't take away from the fact that a BMS provides other, more important safety features like to HVC, LVC, and overcurrent, group imbalance (which would definitely have triggered in this case, losing 1/3 of two groups), and other such protections.

A company building packs since 2008 should damn well know better.

---

There's a doc on their site explaining their rationale:

OPERATING VOLTAGES: For 12v systems; 6 to 17volts – Can be discharged to zero volts w/o any cell damage. No worries about a sudden cutoff from a “smart” BMS in a lithium battery. Cannot be overcharged or overdischarged from an electrical system. No ‘ battery fault ‘ indicator required from a delicate lithium ‘smart’ battery that must be constantly monitored.

...

A Sodium battery, unlike a BMS controlled ‘ smart ‘ lithium battery can act as a voltage stabilizer and accept wide voltage variations and act as a buffer from the alternator similar to lead acid without fear of an unexpected BMS shutdown causing loss of all power to engine

There are no ‘ fault ‘ monitoring concerns because there are no fault weak points like lithium.

There's a lot of claims there that, I'll be honest, I don't have solid know-how of. I've only been involved heavily with typical lithium cells and lifepo4's. Sodiums are new to me, but I'm extremely skeptical that you can just fully do away with a BMS for these packs.

 

[E-HP]

Yes, you are absolutely right. Upon further inspection, I found two of the darker colored metal strips that have torn and two soldered connections that are bad. One is about to fall off and the other is only half soldered. Yes, I agree, bad quality and workmanship all around. I just requested a FaceTime with the builder either now or tomorrow so that I can show him this and ask for a complete refund.
I was so excited for a while, now I’m bummed out again.
I’ll keep you updated. Thanks for the ammunition.

I wonder what the other side looks like, interested in how the first and last groups are connected on the other side.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Could be a very cheap active-balancer-only type board. This kind of thing:

Amazon.com

Other's have already chimed in a bit, but that's...not a good battery build.

1. No BMS is a HUGE issue. You lack all the protections a battery pack should have.
2. Parallel groups are not properly isolated (glue together, as noted by other poster)
3. Whatever the little, multi-colored wires are going to are crossing over multiple other cell points which, overtime, will fray and lead to a nasty short
4. Not enough series connections to handle the expected load (this is why those melted, too much power was forced through the parallel connection which wasn't adequately built up to handle it because those cells don't have a direct series connection).
5. If there wasn't anything on top of these cells (like some padding or whatnot) I'd be very unhappy about that -- very little to prevent the cells from jumping about and hitting the exposed pos/neg metal posts on the lid.
6. In image 3638, you can see the plastic wrap of the cell has been melted off -- it's very lucky that happened on the negative side of the battery. If that was a positive side, the wall would be negative and it would have created a dead short on that cell.

Could this pack be saved? Sure! This isn't the worst I've seen, but it's absolutely not acceptable for most of the reasons above.

HOWEVER, I think it's entirely fair to distrust the builder to perform the fix. Some folks would say to give them a chance to make it right, and that's up to your discretion. The utter disregard for bare minimum in a battery pack ( #1: BMS ) would be a full-stop negative in my opinion -- it's the kind of battery that leads to fires, destruction, and in tragic cases, death.

There are reasonable situations in which to not use a BMS -- a pack you sell to someone else is never going to be one of those situations.


IMO, the only way to have this "unfold" is that you return this (on their dime) and get your money back. You then take the money to someone else that actually builds good packs.

Thanks Chuy. That is what I will attempt to achieve tomorrow. I had asked him to FaceTime me tonight or tomorrow. No call tonight.
Not sure if I can ask this on the forum. If I’m able to get a full refund, can anyone recommend a good builder, or a quality battery that I can buy online? I went with this guy because I didn’t want to buy some imported junk, and he was recommended by someone who used him years ago. But obviously this guys work has deteriorated over time.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

can anyone recommend a good builder, or a quality battery that I can buy online?

Are you wanting another sodium battery, or will the usual Li-Ion do? What are your desires?

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Are you wanting another sodium battery, or will the usual Li-Ion do? What are your desires?

Lithium is fine, my main concern is that it is powerful enough for the quadricycle which weighs 230 lbs without a battery, plus my wife, dog and I adding another 270, adding up to 500 lbs., plus the battery. And I want it to have enough capacity to motor us around for a couple hours. I also have size restrictions that I can give. I can measure that up tomorrow.

 

[amberwolf]

Assuming the cells are actually any good*** then redoing the interconnects would be easy enough. (I would replace them with six-cell plates that fully interconnect and mechanically secure the ends of the cells relative to each other. It may require custom-cutting plate for this, I'd recommend nickel-plated copper (plated to prevent oxidation/corrosion, but not required if you're not in a humid environment, plain copper would work, doesn't have to be thick in plates, so much crosssection vs strips, but thick enough to be stiff and stay flatt, not wrinkle or fold like the strips).


***whcih wouid require testing (in-situ in actual usage, or as individual cells with load testing, etc) to establish at this point, given the mechanical failures and other issues, the rest of must be considered suspect as well.




Some analysis, if it's useful:

Based on what I can see for the two disconnected cells, it looks like the factory / builder mechanically worked a tool under them and bent and broke them, damaging the cell wrappers in the process (which would be really stupid to do as it's effectively sabotaging one's own work and reputation).

If it were a complete disconnection of the whole series circuit, then if something during assembly caused a fracture or tear of the strips, arcing could result across the gap and burn away the missing metal, but A) there is already a much better path in the existing series connections, so the arc shouldn't happen at all, unless the series connnections have failed--but if they had, there would be no current flow from the battery at all. And B ) I don't see any of the plasma burns and droplet spatter from the missing metal, or the "milk droplet" damage at the edges of the strips. So any form of electrical failure causing the missing metal seems very unlikely, and the folded-back part on the one cell just about couldn't be caused this way (I can imagine one scenario, but it wouldn't leave the tool marks on the metal).

Unless the metal is floating around in the battery case somewhere, in some form, it seems highly likely that it was torn off during the build process, and those cells have never been part of the active battery. (even if the metal is in the casing, it's still a builder issue).


Also, one of the series interconnects, just to the "right" of the negative main cable passing across the image, looks like either it is torn, or more likely that it is made of multiple layers and the top layer doesn't actually go under the bolt to be secured and make a good connection.

There also appears to be a tear (might just be a wrinkle) in the series connection at the "left" end group (one of the ones that has a cell disconnected entirely).



BTW, having one of three parallel cells disconnected from a group means that instead of a 45Ah battery, it is at best a 30Ah. If there are other cell disocnnections that leave only one cell in any group actively in the series path, it's only a 15Ah battery.




Regarding the controller causing hte problem, that would be a no.

If the controller had a fault that drew enough current to drop the battery's voltage that far, and nothing was wrong with the battery, it would probably melt the insulation on the wiring from battery to controller, and seeing how thin the wires are inside the battery, those too.

Also, such a fault would not be intermittent, it would stop the controller from working at all.


No matter what the battery builder might say, it isn't the controller just causing voltage drop, because things don't work that way. If the battery was capable of ever handling the current the controller draws under load while riding around, it would be capable of always handling that current, and the controller wouldn't draw more than the max it already has unless it failed (see previous paragraphs ).

When the controller is turned on, the red light on the throttle NEVER goes out.

I just want to clarify:

I see you've retested and gotten different results to your original, which said the red light was extinguished (which AFAIK means it went out. ). My reply to you was based on that, because that light going out would imply that all power from the battery was shut off, which implies a BMS turn off (not a connection fault as it reset during subsequent actions).

The red light only dimming indicates just a voltage drop, which is what you are seeing with the voltmeter--an extreme voltage drop, far beyond what a battery should be doing if it were functioning correclty but just votlage drop.

Given that it *can* drop that far, it implies that there isn't any BMS, so that lines up with the builder's statement. (I'd go with the other posters' comments that the board in there is just a balancer, or perhaps it is the protection board.

Maybe they're less likely to go out of balance?

The chemistry itself doesn't direclty determine that. Variation in cell properties (internal resistance, capacity, etc.) is what causes imbalance, so unless the cells are matched in properties, there *will* be imbalance as each cell discharges differently than the others.

Some chemistries have a flatter SoC voltage curve, so balance issues are less obvious (except at full / empty), but they still exist with unmatched cells (and most battery builders, even companies, do not match their cells, as it costs time, parts, and labor to do).

Lithium is fine, my main concern is that it is powerful enough for the quadricycle which weighs 230 lbs without a battery, plus my wife, dog and I adding another 270, adding up to 500 lbs., plus the battery. And I want it to have enough capacity to motor us around for a couple hours. I also have size restrictions that I can give. I can measure that up tomorrow.

If you need two hours of range, then, assuming worst case current draw of 25A all the time (the controller's current limit), you need 50Ah at minimum (25A per hour x 2).

You should add at least 25% to that to account for pack degradation due to aging over time, so that you still have enough range further in the future.


If you're willing to "make" a battery, I highly recommend using used-EV modules from places like GreenTecAuto...I've been using EV cells in a "52v" 40Ah pack on SB Cruiser (a heavy heavy cargo trike equivalent to your quad, but with dual motors/controllers for about four to eight times the power) for over a decade, and previously used the same kind on CrazyBike2, a heavy heavy-cargo bike with dual motors.... These are my everyday rides (no car, etc), so they have to work, and they are pushed during acceleration every day, and pushed harder every couple weeks or so with large grocery / etc trips, and even harder every few months with giant dog food trips.

Generally if you pick a module (or set of them) that is the right voltage, you don't generally need to do anything with them other than install a BMS for protection/monitoring (it probably won't need the balance function), and put them in casing sufficient to protect them from your riding environment.

I recommend a module made of pouch cells, that has the cell compression hardware as part of the module; there are less points of failure in a pack made of larger capacity cells, and compressed-pouch packs are mechanically more stable than typical cylindrical cell packs.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Assuming the cells are actually any good*** then redoing the interconnects would be easy enough. (I would replace them with six-cell plates that fully interconnect and mechanically secure the ends of the cells relative to each other. It may require custom-cutting plate for this, I'd recommend nickel-plated copper (plated to prevent oxidation/corrosion, but not required if you're not in a humid environment, plain copper would work, doesn't have to be thick in plates, so much crosssection vs strips, but thick enough to be stiff and stay flatt, not wrinkle or fold like the strips).


***whcih wouid require testing (in-situ in actual usage, or as individual cells with load testing, etc) to establish at this point, given the mechanical failures and other issues, the rest of must be considered suspect as well.




Some analysis, if it's useful:

Based on what I can see for the two disconnected cells, it looks like the factory / builder mechanically worked a tool under them and bent and broke them, damaging the cell wrappers in the process (which would be really stupid to do as it's effectively sabotaging one's own work and reputation).

If it were a complete disconnection of the whole series circuit, then if something during assembly caused a fracture or tear of the strips, arcing could result across the gap and burn away the missing metal, but A) there is already a much better path in the existing series connections, so the arc shouldn't happen at all, unless the series connnections have failed--but if they had, there would be no current flow from the battery at all. And B ) I don't see any of the plasma burns and droplet spatter from the missing metal, or the "milk droplet" damage at the edges of the strips. So any form of electrical failure causing the missing metal seems very unlikely, and the folded-back part on the one cell just about couldn't be caused this way (I can imagine one scenario, but it wouldn't leave the tool marks on the metal).

Unless the metal is floating around in the battery case somewhere, in some form, it seems highly likely that it was torn off during the build process, and those cells have never been part of the active battery. (even if the metal is in the casing, it's still a builder issue).


Also, one of the series interconnects, just to the "right" of the negative main cable passing across the image, looks like either it is torn, or more likely that it is made of multiple layers and the top layer doesn't actually go under the bolt to be secured and make a good connection.

There also appears to be a tear (might just be a wrinkle) in the series connection at the "left" end group (one of the ones that has a cell disconnected entirely).



BTW, having one of three parallel cells disconnected from a group means that instead of a 45Ah battery, it is at best a 30Ah. If there are other cell disocnnections that leave only one cell in any group actively in the series path, it's only a 15Ah battery.




Regarding the controller causing hte problem, that would be a no.

If the controller had a fault that drew enough current to drop the battery's voltage that far, and nothing was wrong with the battery, it would probably melt the insulation on the wiring from battery to controller, and seeing how thin the wires are inside the battery, those too.

Also, such a fault would not be intermittent, it would stop the controller from working at all.


No matter what the battery builder might say, it isn't the controller just causing voltage drop, because things don't work that way. If the battery was capable of ever handling the current the controller draws under load while riding around, it would be capable of always handling that current, and the controller wouldn't draw more than the max it already has unless it failed (see previous paragraphs ).


I just want to clarify:

I see you've retested and gotten different results to your original, which said the red light was extinguished (which AFAIK means it went out. ). My reply to you was based on that, because that light going out would imply that all power from the battery was shut off, which implies a BMS turn off (not a connection fault as it reset during subsequent actions).

The red light only dimming indicates just a voltage drop, which is what you are seeing with the voltmeter--an extreme voltage drop, far beyond what a battery should be doing if it were functioning correclty but just votlage drop.

Given that it *can* drop that far, it implies that there isn't any BMS, so that lines up with the builder's statement. (I'd go with the other posters' comments that the board in there is just a balancer, or perhaps it is the protection board.




The chemistry itself doesn't direclty determine that. Variation in cell properties (internal resistance, capacity, etc.) is what causes imbalance, so unless the cells are matched in properties, there *will* be imbalance as each cell discharges differently than the others.

Some chemistries have a flatter SoC voltage curve, so balance issues are less obvious (except at full / empty), but they still exist with unmatched cells (and most battery builders, even companies, do not match their cells, as it costs time, parts, and labor to do).




If you need two hours of range, then, assuming worst case current draw of 25A all the time (the controller's current limit), you need 50Ah at minimum (25A per hour x 2).

You should add at least 25% to that to account for pack degradation due to aging over time, so that you still have enough range further in the future.


If you're willing to "make" a battery, I highly recommend using used-EV modules from places like GreenTecAuto...I've been using EV cells in a "52v" 40Ah pack on SB Cruiser (a heavy heavy cargo trike equivalent to your quad, but with dual motors/controllers for about four to eight times the power) for over a decade, and previously used the same kind on CrazyBike2, a heavy heavy-cargo bike with dual motors.... These are my everyday rides (no car, etc), so they have to work, and they are pushed during acceleration every day, and pushed harder every couple weeks or so with large grocery / etc trips, and even harder every few months with giant dog food trips.

Generally if you pick a module (or set of them) that is the right voltage, you don't generally need to do anything with them other than install a BMS for protection/monitoring (it probably won't need the balance function), and put them in casing sufficient to protect them from your riding environment.

I recommend a module made of pouch cells, that has the cell compression hardware as part of the module; there are less points of failure in a pack made of larger capacity cells, and compressed-pouch packs are mechanically more stable than typical cylindrical cell packs.

I have to hit the hay now, I have an early morning tomorrow. But I wanted to address two things before I sign off tonight. Amber Wolfe, you are correct in that my description of the red, green and yellow lights changed. The second description of how they behave is the correct version.
And I will post some measurement information tomorrow in hopes that you may be able to direct me to a good size battery that will fit in the restricted area that I have.
Thanks and good night.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Could be a very cheap active-balancer-only type board. This kind of thing:

Amazon.com

Other's have already chimed in a bit, but that's...not a good battery build.

1. No BMS is a HUGE issue. You lack all the protections a battery pack should have.
2. Parallel groups are not properly isolated (glue together, as noted by other poster)
3. Whatever the little, multi-colored wires are going to are crossing over multiple other cell points which, overtime, will fray and lead to a nasty short
4. Not enough series connections to handle the expected load (this is why those melted, too much power was forced through the parallel connection which wasn't adequately built up to handle it because those cells don't have a direct series connection).
5. If there wasn't anything on top of these cells (like some padding or whatnot) I'd be very unhappy about that -- very little to prevent the cells from jumping about and hitting the exposed pos/neg metal posts on the lid.
6. In image 3638, you can see the plastic wrap of the cell has been melted off -- it's very lucky that happened on the negative side of the battery. If that was a positive side, the wall would be negative and it would have created a dead short on that cell.

Could this pack be saved? Sure! This isn't the worst I've seen, but it's absolutely not acceptable for most of the reasons above.

HOWEVER, I think it's entirely fair to distrust the builder to perform the fix. Some folks would say to give them a chance to make it right, and that's up to your discretion. The utter disregard for bare minimum in a battery pack ( #1: BMS ) would be a full-stop negative in my opinion -- it's the kind of battery that leads to fires, destruction, and in tragic cases, death.

There are reasonable situations in which to not use a BMS -- a pack you sell to someone else is never going to be one of those situations.


IMO, the only way to have this "unfold" is that you return this (on their dime) and get your money back. You then take the money to someone else that actually builds good packs.

Hi Chuy, I think you are right, I pulled the board out as far as I could and it looks very much like the balancer you linked from Amazon. Thank you for your other comments as well. Battery Maker is supposed to call me at some point this evening.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

I have to hit the hay now, I have an early morning tomorrow. But I wanted to address two things before I sign off tonight. Amber Wolfe, you are correct in that my description of the red, green and yellow lights changed. The second description of how they behave is the correct version.
And I will post some measurement information tomorrow in hopes that you may be able to direct me to a good size battery that will fit in the restricted area that I have.
Thanks and good night.

Hi Amberwolf, a close examination of the damages metal strips shows that because the battery was use on its side, the packs were able to shift towards the top of the case. The negative post hit the one corner cell, the positive post hit the other corner cell. There are arc/burn marks on the copper terminals and on the cell post as proof of this contact. The strips themselves simply evaporated in the heat created by this contact. I’ve see wire evaporated into thin air when a transformer was wired incorrectly. I think the fold over you noted happened as the pack slid back and forth. The intense heat that melted the metal also deformed it upward, evidenced by the negative side. Then the head of the positive terminal bolt mashed it down backwards creating the fold.
Yes, there are a couple of other points of failure and pending failure on this battery that I will point out to the builder. He is supposed to call me this evening. I’m not looking forward to this conversation, but I am thankful for all the knowledge and insights provided by everyone here. It will make my stance stronger.
Thank you for the power calculations, I don’t math good. Perhaps we can work together on figuring out my next step after I finish dealing with this battery.

 

[amberwolf]

Hi Amberwolf, a close examination of the damages metal strips shows that because the battery was use on its side, the packs were able to shift towards the top of the case. The negative post hit the one corner cell, the positive post hit the other corner cell. There are arc/burn marks on the copper terminals and on the cell post as proof of this contact. The strips themselves simply evaporated in the heat created by this contact. I’ve see wire evaporated into thin air when a transformer was wired incorrectly. I think the fold over you noted happened as the pack slid back and forth. The intense heat that melted the metal also deformed it upward, evidenced by the negative side. Then the head of the positive terminal bolt mashed it down backwards creating the fold.

I guess that's why these packs were filled with sprayfoam:

Teardown: LithiumPros LithiumPowerPack 12v and 36v

I won't get to the actual teardown for at least a few days, but Cvin dropped off these failed units for experimentation. The 12v is more swollen than the 36v, but the 36v is actually broken across the bottom of the case (probably from an impact rather than the swelling, can't tell till I get...

endless-sphere.com

unfortunately while it did immobilize everything, it didn't have any cell-compression effect and the tape used for that purpose was naturally useless, so these $1800 (each) packs failed with cell swelling and resultant internal damage. (thankfully I didn't buy them, was just given them for failure analysis ).

 

[chuyskywalker]

Hi Amberwolf, a close examination of the damages metal strips shows that because the battery was use on its side, the packs were able to shift towards the top of the case. The negative post hit the one corner cell, the positive post hit the other corner cell.

If there wasn't anything on top of these cells (like some padding or whatnot) I'd be very unhappy about that -- very little to prevent the cells from jumping about and hitting the exposed pos/neg metal posts on the lid.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

I guess that's why these packs were filled with sprayfoam:

Teardown: LithiumPros LithiumPowerPack 12v and 36v

I won't get to the actual teardown for at least a few days, but Cvin dropped off these failed units for experimentation. The 12v is more swollen than the 36v, but the 36v is actually broken across the bottom of the case (probably from an impact rather than the swelling, can't tell till I get...

endless-sphere.com

unfortunately while it did immobilize everything, it didn't have any cell-compression effect and the tape used for that purpose was naturally useless, so these $1800 (each) packs failed with cell swelling and resultant internal damage. (thankfully I didn't buy them, was just given them for failure analysis ).

Good morning Amberwolf and Chuy, I can see that building a battery is both a science and an art. I read the posts included with Amberwolfs link to the battery tear down and the top of my head is now completely blown off. I am a recently retired electrician, but always thought of myself as more of a pipe and wire guy. I left the theory and deep thinking to the guys running the job. I’m also a dinosaur, so all these electronics are pretty much beyond me.
Having said that, it’s Sunday, the morning after Andy, the battery maker, was supposed to FaceTime me. Since he didn’t, and I am now a bit concerned that he is flaking out on me, I will share with you a little something that I had held back on because I didn’t feel the need to throw him to the (amber)wolves. (See what I did there? Heh heh heh!)
Look at the picture I attached. I’ll wait…now pick your jaw up off the floor. He used the foam rubber from a kitchen knife set as a pad and spacer on top of the cells.
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m all for reduce, reuse, recycle. But in this case…Whaaat??? Let me rephrase that…Whaaaaaaaaaat?????
But as mentioned, this is Sunday, a day to slow down, relax and reflect. And in doing so I have mustered all the wisdom gleaned in my 63 years to come to the acceptance of the conclusion that if I am getting stiffed here, it is simply Karma, in all its grand bitchiness, coming back to sink its teeth into me.
I, in my carefree and ignorant youth, have committed some similarly unsavory acts. And I, in the fade of my bloom, live every day regretting those acts, and soothing the shame by attempting to conduct myself in the manner of the select few people I have encountered throughout my life for whom I felt a very high regard because of their level of integrity and character.
So, if I am able to get in touch with Andy, and if he refuses to give a total refund, instead of going nuclear, this will be the sentiment I convey to him. And though he may be the type who never aspires to the ability to reflect and learn, and never comes to understand the injustices he has perpetrated, I have absolutely zero doubt that my impartial friend Karma will present him with both the kindness and wrath he brings upon himself throughout his life. What goes around comes around. Words to live by.

 

[slaphappygamer]

If that pad was just a few inches longer, there wouldn’t have been an issue. I guess the glue didn’t hold the cells in placed either. So, that’s no good either.

“What comes around, goes around” Truly.

 

[docw009]

Immediate credit card dispute would be the first thing I'd do, to hold up his payment for what I think is an unsafe and dangerous product,

What other info can help? What about the cells? It would help if you can slide the battery out and see what is marked on the cells, manufacturer and capacity, If this is a 45AH battery, those need to be 15AH cells. I've looked with google, and on the alibaba site. There are no screw terminal 15AH sodium cells that I can find. Where does a little guy like him buy them, if other little guys cannot even find them.

Srikobatteries.com, by the way, based in Chicago (actually in Aurora ... kruthala@srikobatteries.com), sells sodium cells and BMS too. His website is throwing up access errors, but I have bought battery parts there in the past with no issues. If you get a part number, would be interesting to see what he says about it.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Immediate credit card dispute would be the first thing I'd do, to hold up his payment for an unsafe and dangerous product,

What other info can help? What about the cells? It would help if you can slide the battery out and see what is marked on the cells, manufacturer and capacity, If this is a 45AH battery, those need to be 15AH cells. I've looked with google, and on the alibaba site. There are no screw terminal 15AH sodium cells that I can find. Where does a little guy like him buy them, if other little guys cannot even find them.

Srikobatteries.com, by the way, based in Chicago (actually in Aurora ... kruthala@srikobatteries.com), sells sodium cells and BMS too. His website is throwing up access errors, but I have bought battery parts there in the past with no issues. If you get a part number, would be interesting to see what he says about it.

I hate to admit this but I paid by Venmo. Believe me, I am kicking myself as hard as I can for not paying the additional percentage he wanted to make up for the credit cards fee.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

I hate to admit this but I paid by Venmo. Believe me, I am kicking myself as hard as I can for not paying the additional percentage he wanted to make up for the credit cards fee.

Ugh, I have to admit it only gets worse. At docs encouraging I turned the battery on its side and slid everything out out of the case. I saw a tiny spark, as I slipped the case, completely off the bottom of the batteries. You can see on one of the pictures where the white wire had gotten crushed by one of the battery posts and shorted out, just as Doc had said in an earlier reply. Also, more broken and melted through straps. I’ve included a picture of some numbers on the side of a cell. Can one of you please research that for me?

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Ugh, I have to admit it only gets worse. At docs encouraging I turned the battery on its side and slid everything out out of the case. I saw a tiny spark, as I slipped the case, completely off the bottom of the batteries. You can see on one of the pictures where the white wire had gotten crushed by one of the battery posts and shorted out, just as Doc had said in an earlier reply. Also, more broken and melted through straps. I’ve included a picture of some numbers on the side of a cell. Can one of you please research that for me?

Oops, forgot the pictures.

 

[E-HP]

Good morning Amberwolf and Chuy, I can see that building a battery is both a science and an art. I read the posts included with Amberwolfs link to the battery tear down and the top of my head is now completely blown off. I am a recently retired electrician, but always thought of myself as more of a pipe and wire guy. I left the theory and deep thinking to the guys running the job. I’m also a dinosaur, so all these electronics are pretty much beyond me.
Having said that, it’s Sunday, the morning after Andy, the battery maker, was supposed to FaceTime me. Since he didn’t, and I am now a bit concerned that he is flaking out on me, I will share with you a little something that I had held back on because I didn’t feel the need to throw him to the (amber)wolves. (See what I did there? Heh heh heh!)
Look at the picture I attached. I’ll wait…now pick your jaw up off the floor. He used the foam rubber from a kitchen knife set as a pad and spacer on top of the cells.
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m all for reduce, reuse, recycle. But in this case…Whaaat??? Let me rephrase that…Whaaaaaaaaaat?????
But as mentioned, this is Sunday, a day to slow down, relax and reflect. And in doing so I have mustered all the wisdom gleaned in my 63 years to come to the acceptance of the conclusion that if I am getting stiffed here, it is simply Karma, in all its grand bitchiness, coming back to sink its teeth into me.
I, in my carefree and ignorant youth, have committed some similarly unsavory acts. And I, in the fade of my bloom, live every day regretting those acts, and soothing the shame by attempting to conduct myself in the manner of the select few people I have encountered throughout my life for whom I felt a very high regard because of their level of integrity and character.
So, if I am able to get in touch with Andy, and if he refuses to give a total refund, instead of going nuclear, this will be the sentiment I convey to him. And though he may be the type who never aspires to the ability to reflect and learn, and never comes to understand the injustices he has perpetrated, I have absolutely zero doubt that my impartial friend Karma will present him with both the kindness and wrath he brings upon himself throughout his life. What goes around comes around. Words to live by.

Good morning Amberwolf and Chuy, I can see that building a battery is both a science and an art. I read the posts included with Amberwolfs link to the battery tear down and the top of my head is now completely blown off. I am a recently retired electrician, but always thought of myself as more of a pipe and wire guy. I left the theory and deep thinking to the guys running the job. I’m also a dinosaur, so all these electronics are pretty much beyond me.
Having said that, it’s Sunday, the morning after Andy, the battery maker, was supposed to FaceTime me. Since he didn’t, and I am now a bit concerned that he is flaking out on me, I will share with you a little something that I had held back on because I didn’t feel the need to throw him to the (amber)wolves. (See what I did there? Heh heh heh!)
Look at the picture I attached. I’ll wait…now pick your jaw up off the floor. He used the foam rubber from a kitchen knife set as a pad and spacer on top of the cells.
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m all for reduce, reuse, recycle. But in this case…Whaaat??? Let me rephrase that…Whaaaaaaaaaat?????
But as mentioned, this is Sunday, a day to slow down, relax and reflect. And in doing so I have mustered all the wisdom gleaned in my 63 years to come to the acceptance of the conclusion that if I am getting stiffed here, it is simply Karma, in all its grand bitchiness, coming back to sink its teeth into me.
I, in my carefree and ignorant youth, have committed some similarly unsavory acts. And I, in the fade of my bloom, live every day regretting those acts, and soothing the shame by attempting to conduct myself in the manner of the select few people I have encountered throughout my life for whom I felt a very high regard because of their level of integrity and character.
So, if I am able to get in touch with Andy, and if he refuses to give a total refund, instead of going nuclear, this will be the sentiment I convey to him. And though he may be the type who never aspires to the ability to reflect and learn, and never comes to understand the injustices he has perpetrated, I have absolutely zero doubt that my impartial friend Karma will present him with both the kindness and wrath he brings upon himself throughout his life. What goes around comes around. Words to live by.

Whoever digs a pit will fall into it.

Are you going to rebuild the pack if things don’t work out with the seller? I see the active balancer, but no fuses. It looks like a direct short would cause a pretty good fireworks show.

I’d be mad that he shorted you out of the free set of steak knives.