Power drops out, clueless about why

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Hi, I’ve been reading dozens of posts trying to find a situation similar to my issue so that I don’t have to repeat a question. but mine is pretty unique so here I go.


A neighbor gave me a quadricycle (four wheel bike) that had been sitting in her garage for 15 years. Her husband had built it from a kit about 20 years ago and then added a Crystalyte 408 hub, Crystalyte CT3625 controller, and a throttle. That’s it, very basic. I received no instructions or manuals with it, and she didn’t know how it operated either. A bit of online sleuthing revealed that the hub is brushless and 500 watts. The controller is for 36vdc and 25 amp hour. She had thrown the batteries out years ago, but since it came with a 12volt lead acid charger, I’m guessing he used three 12V SLAs to operate it.


Armed with that limited info, I felt confident enough to buy a battery to try and get it going again.


I researched the company that made the quadracycle kit all those years ago, (American Speedster, still has a website) and fortunately the owner is still alive. (He is 82 years young.) He told me that years ago when he used to supply the accessory kit to electrify the bikes, he had used a Custom Battery Maker, so he gave me that man’s number.


I called that guy and had him build a 36 V battery for me. It is a 36 V 45 amp hour sodium battery. When I received it, it was pre-charged to 45.7 V, tested with a digital voltmeter directly at the battery. That seems kinda high to me for a 36 V battery, but knowing very little about the parameters of these components, I plugged it in and away I went. It worked great, starting the quadricycle from a dead stop and getting it up to 14 miles an hour with myself, my wife and my dog on board. We drove around our block a couple of times accelerating, decelerating, stopping, starting, and it worked flawlessly. When I parked it, it had 43.7 volts remaining in the battery, tested with a digital voltmeter at the battery. The next day we took it out and drove it around again, and it worked flawlessly, until it didn’t. All of a sudden the motor just stopped turning. Power had shut off, confirmed by the red “power on” lite on the throttle being extinguished. If I released the throttle and then twisted it again, power was back on, confirmed by the red light back on, but even the slightest amount of throttle would shut it down again. There are 3 lites on the throttle: ‘power’ (red), ‘high’ (green) and ‘low’ (yellow). The’ high’ and 'low’ are indicators of the amount of charge left in the battery, not speed settings. The red power light would go out when the power shut down, and the yellow ’low’ indicator would quickly flash as the power shut down.


The voltage measured at the battery when this problem occurred was 42.7 V.


I read in another post that maybe the controller sensed that I had a 48 V battery and was shutting down once I reached the low end of that charge. I didn’t think this was the case for me because the controller was so old it probably didn’t have that kind of sophistication. Also, it was clearly marked as a 36 V controller. But I put the drive wheel up on a jackstand and was able to run the motor with the wheel freely turning in the air. I ran the battery down to 37.6 V in hopes that maybe the controller would recalibrate itself for a 36 V battery. It did not; same results. Once the wheel was back on the ground, the power would shut off as soon as I applied the throttle.


There are no local bike shops who will touch this dinosaur so I appeal to the techno wizards in the forum to help me troubleshoot this old technology instead of simply throwing parts at it. Do you think it’s the controller, is it the battery management system, is it the hub? I do not have the ability or desire to take the controller apart and change components. If it’s the controller, I just need a recommendation for a basic controller that will handle this new 36 volt 45 amp hour battery and get this old crate going again. Also know that the connectors are of old 15-year-old design. Are adapters available to mate a new controller with an older hub? And if the hub went bad, same question; what’s a good quality replacement and are connection adapters available? I’m thinking it’s not the battery since that’s brand spanking new. Please keep the answers simple, I don’t have an oscilloscope or the skills to test or change any internal hub or controller components. I’m happy to provide any more information you need. I’m thankful for any help you may give me. My humble thanks. Bob
P.S. I’m desperate and frustrated. I just want to have fun with this goofy thing.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Oops, forgot the pictures.

I measured the voltage of both corner cells that were completely disconnected from their respective packs because of melted buss. One was 3.7, the other was 3.9. Then I began checking the other cells. They are all anywhere from 3.1 to 3.9V. There are no other identifying marks on the cells. The last 6 digits appear to be just a production count, as they are all different, but within a thousand of each other.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Whoever digs a pit will fall into it.

Are you going to rebuild the pack if things don’t work out with the seller? I see the active balancer, but no fuses. It looks like a direct short would cause a pretty good fireworks show.

I’d be mad that he shorted you out of the free set of steak knives.

You have a sharp sense of humor! I wouldn’t be opposed to getting together with one of you guys and doing it together properly, but otherwise I know enough not to get involved in something I don’t know enough about. As you know, there are known knowns, and known unknowns, but we don’t know the unknown unknowns…??? My thought was to propose to Andy that he take this back and build a completely different battery made to the standards necessary to withstand the environment it’s going to be in. And photo document every step of its construction as proof. The. ship it to me unsealed, so I can inspect it to confirm. Not a perfect idea, but maybe a way to mitigate my loss. I’m guessing he won’t go for that either.

 

[99t4]

My thought was to propose to Andy that he take this back and build a completely different battery made to the standards necessary to withstand the environment it’s going to be in. And photo document every step of its construction as proof. The. ship it to me unsealed, so I can inspect it to confirm.

Not likely to happen, nor desirable (as in he can't be trusted to have the skillset or motivation to competently complete the task.)

In an earlier post you indicated he was highly recommended. What and where was the recommendation? By who?

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Not likely to happen, nor desirable (as in he can't be trusted to have the skillset or motivation to competently complete the task.)

In an earlier post you indicated he was highly recommended. What and where was the recommendation? By who?

Not necessarily highly recommended, simply recommended by the gentleman who used to make the quadricycle kits (americanspeedster.com). He said he used him to supply batteries when he offered the electric hub kit. Many years ago.

 

[docw009]

At least you know the cell. S40124RL. Just browsing thru alibaba, I am really surprised by the number of high capacity sodium cells on the marketplace, The Chinese are moving fast to make their e-vehicles safer. . Still didn't see any screw terminal 15AH cells, but there are plenty of 15AH sodium cells that can discharge up to 75A.

Before rebuilding, you need to understand why the battery won't run the bike. When the posts made contact with them, it looks like the bottom two cells in each corner separated. That made the remaining cells in that group two in parallel,. Two cells still should have been enough to run your quad.

We do see a broken series connection on the bottom side, That is a show stopper. No current at all would flow, but maybe it was making partial contact, enough to flow the 2-4 amps needed to spin the wheels off the ground.



What's the voltage on the two cells that were separated. I am guessing 3.9 volts and if so, it likely happened during shipping, The two pairs of cells above it are what voltage? Maybe the lowest at 3.1V because they had to work the hardest?

If it were me, I'd fix the broken series connect. I'd leave the two separated cells unconnected for the moment, See if the quad will run. If it does, then I'd think the battery can be saved. For safety, you can't reconnect the two separated cells unless their voltages are the same, That would require a small charger.

I would also install a BMS. Ought to be simple for an electrician. Needed for accidental shorts, Adds temperature protection, Balances too if you get the right one, Some of the guys here have experience with 100A BMS. I only do dinky batteries,

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

At least you know the cell. S40124RL. Just browsing thru alibaba, I am really surprised by the number of high capacity sodium cells on the marketplace, The Chinese are moving fast to make their e-vehicles safer. . Still didn't see any screw terminal 15AH cells, but there are plenty of 15AH sodium cells that can discharge up to 75A.

Before rebuilding, you need to understand why the battery won't run the bike. When the posts made contact with them, it looks like the bottom two cells in each corner separated. That made the remaining cells in that group two in parallel,. Two cells still should have been enough to run your quad.

We do see a broken series connection on the bottom side, That is a show stopper. No current at all would flow, but maybe it was making partial contact, enough to flow the 2-4 amps needed to spin the wheels off the ground.

View attachment 377762

What's the voltage on the two cells that were separated. I am guessing 3.9 volts and if so, it likely happened during shipping, The two pairs of cells above it are what voltage? Maybe the lowest at 3.1V because they had to work the hardest?

If it were me, I'd fix the broken series connect. I'd leave the two separated cells unconnected for the moment, See if the quad will run. If it does, then I'd think the battery can be saved. For safety, you can't reconnect the two separated cells unless their voltages are the same, That would require a small charger.

I would also install a BMS. Ought to be simple for an electrician. Needed for accidental shorts, Adds temperature protection, Balances too if you get the right one, Some of the guys here have experience with 100A BMS. I only do dinky batteries,

Hi doc. I’m sure I could patch this disaster zone back together. The problem is unless I do it to exacting standards and use better materials, and according to some who have posted, additional and heavier or completely different buss, It’s very likely I’ll have the same problem all over again. I do not want a battery that will be a constant source of stress, causing me to constantly wonder when it will crap out as I’m trying to enjoy a ride. And my biggest obstacle to even considering trying to put it back together myself is the fact that the box is too small. Your first response was that the shrink wrap will wear off the cells and short out. And that’s because there’s absolutely no room in this box to space them apart. They are literally shoehorned in. And as previously stated, even this box is too big for the space I have on the bike to put it, so it’s not like I could rebuild it in a bigger box.
I appreciate your thought. And I hate the thought of having to lose $800 - and spend another small fortune for the peace of mind of buying a new, well made battery, but I’ve reached the age where I’m more realistic about the hills I choose to die on. Keep in mind, this is not over yet. Andy texted me this morning asking if he could contact me today. So all hope is not lost yet.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Hi doc. I’m sure I could patch this disaster zone back together. The problem is unless I do it to exacting standards and use better materials, and according to some who have posted, additional and heavier or completely different buss, It’s very likely I’ll have the same problem all over again. I do not want a battery that will be a constant source of stress, causing me to constantly wonder when it will crap out as I’m trying to enjoy a ride. And my biggest obstacle to even considering trying to put it back together myself is the fact that the box is too small. Your first response was that the shrink wrap will wear off the cells and short out. And that’s because there’s absolutely no room in this box to space them apart. They are literally shoehorned in. And as previously stated, even this box is too big for the space I have on the bike to put it, so it’s not like I could rebuild it in a bigger box.
I appreciate your thought. And I hate the thought of having to lose $800 - and spend another small fortune for the peace of mind of buying a new, well made battery, but I’ve reached the age where I’m more realistic about the hills I choose to die on. Keep in mind, this is not over yet. Andy texted me this morning asking if he could contact me today. So all hope is not lost yet.

The two pairs directly above the separated cell on the positive side show 3.2 V. The cells on the negative side measure …from left to right… 3.1 and 3.5 and then going up to the next pair 3.2 and 3.6 V. I’m not sure if that’s what you considered pairs. If not, circle them on the picture and I will measure the right ones for you. Thanks for the interesting thought about this happening in shipping! Because those two cells are 3.9 and 3.7.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Okay! Andy called me a bit ago and to my surprise he agreed to a full refund. It was a friendly call; he seems like a decent guy, maybe a decade older than me. He looked surprised as I pointed out the many points of failure and I think that took the wind out of his sails in terms of thinking I was exaggerating or that maybe I abused it… I don’t know, but he looked … I don’t wanna say saddened, but maybe disheartened that it had failed so catastrophically.
So I am packing it back up now in the same box it came in. And as I do, I am seeing that because of the shape of the box, he shipped it to me on its side! So Doc may be right, the initial melting may have happened in transit.

The good news is he understood and agreed with all the problems and dangers you all pointed out to me.
And I learned a ton about batteries. The thing I still don’t know is where to get a top quality 36v battery, 50ah minimum (thanks Amberwolf) that fits in the absolute maximum dimensions of 22” wide, 7” deep, and 7”” tall. It doesn’t matter to me if it is lithium or sodium.
I’d love to get this crate on the road so I can drive to the bike shop a couple miles away and have them fine-tune the gears, brakes, and spokes before I have to put it away for the winter! A sincere thanks to everybody for pitching in and helping me through this problem.

 

[amberwolf]

because I didn’t feel the need to throw him to the (amber)wolves. (See what I did there? Heh heh heh!)

har har

Look at the picture I attached. I’ll wait…now pick your jaw up off the floor. He used the foam rubber from a kitchen knife set as a pad and spacer on top of the cells.

Ooookkay.

Now, that is something I would almost certainly do for my own stuff (have done plenty), but (whether I were a business or not), I would most certainly not be doing it for someone else's stuff. (I would have done it much differently, with much more of that material, used differently, but...)

I really just can't see why anyone in business would save a buck or two on a piece of foam (or cell holders, packing material, *real* busbars or plates, etc) with the risk of a battery fire (from various possible reasons) and the resultant lawsuit from the remaining living relatives, etc....

I, in my carefree and ignorant youth, have committed some similarly unsavory acts. And I, in the fade of my bloom, live every day regretting those acts, and soothing the shame by attempting to conduct myself in the manner of the select few people I have encountered throughout my life for whom I felt a very high regard because of their level of integrity and character.

Well, I do commend you for that--it is something that some of us feel, and act on. I wish *everyone* could be like that, and that they could do it *sooner* than most of them do.

 

[amberwolf]

And as I do, I am seeing that because of the shape of the box, he shipped it to me on its side! So Doc may be right, the initial melting may have happened in transit.

FWIW, it doesn't matter what orientation you put something in a box for shiipping, evne if the box has up arrows on it. It is NOT going to be kept in that orientation by the shippers; it is going to be in whatever way the person who handles it at that moment happens to handle it for wahtever reason (or none) that they have.

During holiday sales I see UPS and Fedex trucks pickup dozens of boxes from stores, and the drivers are literally just throwing them as hard as they can as fast as they can into the truck to hopefully land far from the entrance, so they can fill it up as fast as possible and go to the next stop. They do not get in there and reorganize them, so all these boxes are just rattling around in random orientations for however long it takes to get from their original "loading" to get to the depot where they transfer to some other transport, sorting, etc.

The same thing happens even during everday pickups, in smaller trucks that are too full to get into and stack. And even when they can get into the truck and stack, they'll almost always take wide flat boxes that are obviously meant from their markings to stack on the wide flat bottom, and instead put them on shelves (overhanging off the shelf by quite a bit) on their narrow wide sides.

Other companies, like Ontrack, I've seen with their trucks parked in a nearly-empty shopping center's parking lot, back ends facing each other across a space, and they both toss out all the boxes in their truck into a giant pile or few, and then they put them all back into their trucks. I don't know why they would do this, other than to swap boxes for a different routing than the trucks were loaded for, which tells me there is a problem with their distribution system (or hiring process), but I used to see this on my way to work nearly every day when I worked a later shift, and this company carried our live fish deliveries (not anymore, thankfully) and these would *always* have busted open boxes, sometimes burst bags, etc.

Most of the deliveries we get here at the house are not "right side up" and are frequently damaged in some way, at least on the outside of the box, often on the inside (though this last is usualy because the originating company didn't put any packing material in there, and isn't related to the issue under discussion).

Etc.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

FWIW, it doesn't matter what orientation you put something in a box for shiipping, evne if the box has up arrows on it. It is NOT going to be kept in that orientation by the shippers; it is going to be in whatever way the person who handles it at that moment happens to handle it for wahtever reason (or none) that they have.

During holiday sales I see UPS and Fedex trucks pickup dozens of boxes from stores, and the drivers are literally just throwing them as hard as they can as fast as they can into the truck to hopefully land far from the entrance, so they can fill it up as fast as possible and go to the next stop. They do not get in there and reorganize them, so all these boxes are just rattling around in random orientations for however long it takes to get from their original "loading" to get to the depot where they transfer to some other transport, sorting, etc.

The same thing happens even during everday pickups, in smaller trucks that are too full to get into and stack. And even when they can get into the truck and stack, they'll almost always take wide flat boxes that are obviously meant from their markings to stack on the wide flat bottom, and instead put them on shelves (overhanging off the shelf by quite a bit) on their narrow wide sides.

Other companies, like Ontrack, I've seen with their trucks parked in a nearly-empty shopping center's parking lot, back ends facing each other across a space, and they both toss out all the boxes in their truck into a giant pile or few, and then they put them all back into their trucks. I don't know why they would do this, other than to swap boxes for a different routing than the trucks were loaded for, which tells me there is a problem with their distribution system (or hiring process), but I used to see this on my way to work nearly every day when I worked a later shift, and this company carried our live fish deliveries (not anymore, thankfully) and these would *always* have busted open boxes, sometimes burst bags, etc.

Most of the deliveries we get here at the house are not "right side up" and are frequently damaged in some way, at least on the outside of the box, often on the inside (though this last is usualy because the originating company didn't put any packing material in there, and isn't related to the issue under discussion).

Etc.

Yep, I wholeheartedly concur. You reminded me of the time in my youth when I was a ramp rat for an airline. My partner and I were taking suitcases off the baggage cart and placing them on the return belt. There happened to be a supervisor watching us, and he yelled at my partner, “Hey! You’re throwing those bags too hard!” My partner shot back, “You caint never throw a bag too hard!”
The just if my discovery that it had been shipped on its side was that it gave creedence to Docs thought that the original damage may have occurred during shipping, not from bouncing around on my quad. This was bolstered by the fact that those two corner disconnected batteries were 3.9 and 3.7 V, while all the rest were 3.1 to 3.6.
I guess it doesn’t really matter now that this episode seems to be over.
I asked the Battery Maker if there was any special shipping procedures (Fedex ground, Illinois to Florida) since it’s a battery. He told me no, I don’t have to declare it since it’s a sodium battery. Less dangerous. What say you?

 

[chuyskywalker]

He told me no, I don’t have to declare it since it’s a sodium battery. Less dangerous. What say you?

That is, actually, accurate since all the battery stuff is about Lithium-Ion battery regulations, so I thin sodium-ion kinda skirt around that.

It's great you're getting a full refund.

You could potentially be better off by just getting some run-of-the-mill 36v batteries and just plonking them all in parallel. As long as they at the same voltage when connected, use a common-port bms (most do these days, including the linked above), are charged through the shared connection and stay connected, it's a really tried and true method of expanding capacity.

 

[amberwolf]

I asked the Battery Maker if there was any special shipping procedures (Fedex ground, Illinois to Florida) since it’s a battery. He told me no, I don’t have to declare it since it’s a sodium battery. Less dangerous. What say you?

YOu can check the actual shipping rules for the particular shipper if you like. I didn't read any of these links, just looked for batery shiping rules for carriers, so they might not apply or there may be different pages for your info.

https://www.ups.com/us/en/support/shipping-support/shipping-special-care-regulated-items/hazardous-materials-guide/how-to-ship-batteries

FedEx | System Down

https://faq.usps.com/s/article/Can-I-Ship-Lithium-Batteries

 

[Zambam]

If some cells short out during return shipment, a fire could possibly result. Make sure the liability in such an event is with the builder of the battery, not you.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

I asked the Battery Maker if there was any special shipping procedures (Fedex ground, Illinois to Florida) since it’s a battery. He told me no, I don’t have to declare it since it’s a sodium battery. Less dangerous. What say you?

So... the fellow who mis-made the battery such that it that may have shorted out during shipment also told you that you can ship it without telling the shipper what is in the shipment?

What is wrong with this picture? And who do you think is liable?

 

[E-HP]

I asked the Battery Maker if there was any special shipping procedures (Fedex ground, Illinois to Florida) since it’s a battery. He told me no, I don’t have to declare it since it’s a sodium battery. Less dangerous. What say you?

It’s pretty easy to start a fire with perfectly safe cells.

So are you thinking that sodium ion is not considered hazmat?

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

It’s pretty easy to start a fire with perfectly safe cells.

So are you thinking that sodium ion is not considered hazmat?

It didn’t take much research to find that no one will ship a damaged battery. His response was ‘damaged doesn’t mean dangerous’. So apparently he’s real piece of work. But I didn’t pick a fight with him. A friend has a daughter who goes to FSU in Tallahassee where this guy lives. He agreed to take it next time they drive to visit her. I may have to wait a while, and hopefully this guy doesn’t have a change of heart in the meantime.

 

[Vintage Quadricycle]

Follow up:
I bought a Power Queen 36v 50ah battery based on the the customer service that company provided even before I bought anything from them. I asked them several questions that they answered in moments, despite the fact that it was the weekend!
The battery has performed above and beyond. I have ridden around for about 13 hours on the first charge, and have still not depleted it down to where Power Queen recommended recharging it.
My friend's daughter brought the defective custom battery back to its maker in Tallahassee on her way back to school at FSU, and true to his word, he Venmo’s the full refund.
So alls well that ends well. Thank you all for your help.